Heaven

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Scripture cannot be broken, but you'd be amazed what people can string together from a few pieces of it, snatching words out of context and making them say something they didn't originally; and this, they then call truth - when all along it's just their strange manner of thinking.

This disturbing aspect of Christian eschatology is why I don't tell normal people that I study it; I don't want them to think I'm one of those kooks who has a pet theory and "knows" the future.

 

[keras]

I am happy to be though of as a 'kook', rather than a 'deluded denier' of the truth of scripture.
It is only people who have their precious beliefs challenged and when presented with the true facts, get upset and post as you do, Marcus.
You can't refute the truth, so you resort to character assassination.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Your words: "[SIZE=10pt]What we find in[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Acts:2:29[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] and 34 clearly illustrates this fact. It says that righteous King David was still in his grave about 1,000 years after his death! Remember Jesus' comment in [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]John:10:35[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], "the Scripture cannot be broken." That is, its teachings are consistent throughout. The biblical teaching is that heaven is not the reward or the destiny of the saved."[/SIZE]

I believe you used these verses out of their proper context.

Acts 2:29 - "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day..."
Acts 2:34 - "...For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,..."

There is nothing in vs. 29 that implies David's spirit is not with God in heaven. It can be said of all believers who die and go to be with the Lord that they are dead, buried and you can see their grave. The reason why Paul was referencing David in the first place was he had just finished quoting Ps. 16:8-11 (Acts 2: 25-28) which was a prophecy about Christ! The point he is making in vs. 34 is that even David, while he was still alive, acknowledged that there was another "higher" power seated at God, the Father's right hand. Paul is quoting Ps. 110:1. Paul was using David's words as evidence about the deity of Jesus the Christ! You say you want consistency but at least try and center you pov on the proper application of scripture.

 

[keras]

Trekson quote: I believe you used these verses out of their proper context.
You believe that because of your rapture theory, but all who read the Bible without preconceived notions, see them for what they actually say.

Trekson quote; There is nothing in vs. 29 that implies David's spirit is not with God in heaven.
Huh? Verse 34 that you quote, is specific: David is NOT ascended unto the heavens.....v29 David is dead and buried.... I have visited David's tomb, just outside of Jerusalem.
I agree, Paul is confirming the deity of Jesus.

The fact that Elijah sent a letter after his removal to another place on earth, is proof enough that Jesus did not lie in John 3:13
[Unless you want to think there is a postal service between earth and heaven? I used to be a stamp collector, love to get a heaven stamp!]

When all that is prophesied takes place, and we gather into all of the Holy Land, initially all those who have believed false teachings will be embarrassed, Isaiah 43:8, but as God is a forgiving God and has promised to 'wipe away our sins', and those things will be 'remembered no more'. Isaiah 43:25
Be assured, to live as God intended His people to be, will be a truly amazing time. THAT is our promise and our destiny. Isaiah 43:10-12

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, your quote: "David is NOT ascended unto the heavens.."

Sorry, but you're reading into the words more than is being said just as you do with John 3:13. Despite what it reads, the verse is NOT saying that "David is NOT ascended unto the heavens.." If you omit the context it does seem to say that but I'll repeat myself: "The point he is making in vs. 34 is that even David, while he was still alive, acknowledged that there was another "higher" power seated at God, the Father's right hand." To paraphrase: "David had not died and ascended unto the heavens but in his earthly state saw (probably in a vision) Another (who we now know was Christ) seated at the right hand of the Lord." That is the ONLY THING (David is NOT ascended unto the heavens..") is implying. Paul IS NOT making a doctrinal statement on the whereabouts of David. It just means: WHEN DAVID WAS STILL ALIVE HE SAW...It's a time thing, not an eternal thing.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I am happy to be though of as a 'kook', rather than a 'deluded denier' of the truth of scripture.
It is only people who have their precious beliefs challenged and when presented with the true facts, get upset and post as you do, Marcus.
You can't refute the truth, so you resort to character assassination.

You don't have the truth Keras. You're the one labeling others as carrying out Satan's deception with their false teaching.

I am not upset; you simply don't have that much power to influence other people Keras. I'm simply defending my belief structure which you castigated as coming from Satan. I rebuke you. It you want to take that personally, then you've given me that power.

It is your delusion on the coronal mass ejection affects the earth in the manner that God's Hand does with the sixth Seal events.
It is your delusion that the Church, as part of the Great Multitude, isn't in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17.

You can deny it, but remember: denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

 

[keras]

Trekson, I am prepared to accept your explanation of the Acts 2 quotes. But of course then, that is just a proof of Jesus' deity, nothing to do with whether humans go to heaven.

Marcus, we shall see, won't we. Prophecy will come to pass, all in God's good timing.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Your words, "Trekson, I am prepared to accept your explanation of the Acts 2 quotes. But of course then, that is just a proof of Jesus' deity, nothing to do with whether humans go to heaven."

We are in agreement that Acts 2 is not speaking of eternity and this particular passage does not teach anything about humans going to heaven.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Your words: “Sorry Retro but you didn’t include the first five highlighted words in your original statement. You just said 'terminology was paramount' and my dictionary says paramount means of the highest importance which I took to mean that you were placing your knowledge above the HS or at least at the same level."

Well, I’m not going to argue with you. I apologize for my poor choice of words, but I stand by my amended statement: “WITHIN the leading of the Ruach haQodesh, terminology is paramount."

Your words: “Because of the great amount of time since the original scriptures were written and the human factor of the translators I just don’t have the same regards towards terminology as you do. I don’t deny its importance but the ‘sense' of what I receive from the HS is more important to me than the actual wording."

But HOW can you even HAVE a “sense” of what you are “receiving from the HS” if you don’t take into consideration the terminology of the Scriptures? Remember:

John 14:23-26
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

John 15:26-27
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
KJV

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
KJV

John 17:12-17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
KJV

Thus, the Ruach haQodesh USES the Scriptures, bringing all things to our remembrance, as per Yeshua`s words!

Your words: “I believe heaven is a very large earth-like planet. Everything on earth is a copy of what is in heaven but not everything from heaven is copied to earth. No, there are no scriptures that come out and say that but that is the sense I get. Does it have to 'make‘ sense? Not to me. If you consider God’s omnipresence that acknowledges that God is everywhere at the same time, than the verse of God not being contained is of course true, but when I consider where God dwells, I look at it as ‘His base of operations.' In all your verses about God dwelling in the 'land of Israel,' to answer your question, 'where exactly does God dwell?' The answer is simple. Until the crucifixion of Christ, God 'dwelt‘ in the Holy of Holies! Does that mean He was there 24/7? No, I guess you could consider it His layover spot, where He was there as needed. Of course it is possible that God in the guise of the HS was there 24/7."

So, let me get this straight: You believe that this earth on which we live and its atmosphere is called “earth” and this “very large earth-like planet” with its own atmosphere is called “heaven?” Really?! That is the “sense” you get?! Of course it doesn’t have to make sense! IT DOESN’T!

Let me make this plain: GOD ISN’T “DWELLING" ANYWHERE! EVERYWHERE one goes, God is PRESENT there! Anywhere and everywhere is God’s “base of operations!” God didn’t “dwell” in the Holy of Holies, neither in the Tabernacle nor in the first Temple that Smoh built nor in the second Temple built after the Captivity to which Herod made improvements!

Your words: “If heaven is a planet, it would have gardens, cities and buildings, etc. The following verse could be about the NJ but it could also be of a heavenly Jerusalem from which the NJ is copied.

Gal. 4:26 – 'But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.'

I don’t think you’re taking into consideration time in general. I think an argument could be given that until Adam & Eve sinned, it could be said that God ‘dwelt' in the garden. From the flood to the building of the tabernacle, we’re not really told where God dwelt although we know, for a time, it was around Melchisadek. Once the tabernacle was built until Christ’s crucifixion, He 'dwelt‘ in the Holy of Holies. From that until the present, he ‘dwells' in the hearts and minds of believers. At some point in the future, heaven and the NJ will come to earth but I’m am not convinced that there will be a 'gap‘ in the heavens where the NJ 'used‘ to be. I would consider that location to be the 'heaven of heavens‘ your 1 Kings 8:27 was referencing and if there are cities and a temple I can certainly imagine a door being there as well as a Mt. Sion.

Psalm 11:4 4 The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. KJV

This verse shows me that they knew God has a throne in heaven at the same time as He dwelt in the Holy of Holies here on earth."

Big problems with the above! First, if “heaven” is a CITY, it too would have gardens and buildings, etc. You have nothing in Scripture to support your “heaven is a large planet” theory; there is MUCH in Scripture that supports the “mankind’s PERSPECTIVE of a ‘heaven’ is a large city, the New Jerusalem” theory!

Second, your interpretation of Galatians 4:26 is flawed and pulled out of its context:

Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Hagar).
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

This passage is contrasting the TWO SONS of Avraham, Yishma’el (Ishmael) and Yitschaq (Isaac)!

Yishma’el:
His mother was a bondslave and Avraham’s concubine.
His mother and he were cast out.
Avraham’s children through Yishma’el went to live in Arabia.
The chief pinnacle (of interest to Israel) was Mount Sinai.
Because he was Avraham’s and Sarah’s human attempt to fulfill God’s prophecy, he was "a child of the flesh."
His children, like he, were “children of the flesh."

Yitschaq:
His mother was a free woman and Avraham’s wife.
His mother and he remained the family of Avraham.
Avraham’s children through Yitschaq came to live in the Land of Isra'el.
The chief pinnacle (of interest to Israel) was Mount Tsiown (Zion) on which Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) was situated.
Because he was literally God’s promised seed, he was “a child of the Spirit."
His children, like he, were “children of promise."

THIS is that verse’s correct interpretation:

Yerushalayim, the one where the disciples, who were children of Isra’el, first met, is above Mount Sinai - not necessarily in height or elevation, but in position and importance! It’s where the NEW covenant was given, as opposed to the old covenant which was given on Mount Sinai! It has NOTHING to do with the New Jerusalem!

Now, I’ve certainly taken time into consideration; however, you’re still under the delusion that God is localized to a particular place!

Isaiah 66:1-2
66 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
KJV

Psalm 139:7-12
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
KJV

2 Samuel 7:5-17
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

THIS is what the LORD (YHWH) has said! Oh, and by the way, if any version says that God “dwelt” in the Tabernacle or used it as His “dwelling" (as some do in this last passage), the translators need to go back and re-write their version, because that is NOT what the Hebrew says here!

Read more carefully in 1 Kings 8! There, the Temple is recognized as the place where God’s NAME resides, not God Himself! What Smoh haMelekh is saying is that even the loftiest of the lofties cannot contain God!

OT:8064 shaamayim (shaw-mah'-yim); dual of an unused singular shaameh (shaw-meh'); from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):
KJV - air, astrologer, heaven (-s).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Also, as an aside, be careful with saying “Mount Sion.” There is not only a “Har Tsiyown,” translated as “Mount Zion,” but there is also a “Har Siy’on,” translated as “Mount Sion.” (See Deut. 4:48.) Only through the Greeks (who didn’t have a letter like the Hebrew “tsadday” any more than we do) did “Tsiyown” become “Sioon,” spelled “sigma-iota-omega-nu.” The KJV distinguished between the two by using a “Z” for the “tsadday."

Lastly, not every word translated as “Temple” means “Temple!” The word was used for where Hannah, Shmu’el’s (Samuel’s) mother, entreated God for a son, LONG before the Temple came along! (See 1 Sam. 1:9.)

Psalm 11 4
4 YHWH bheeykhal qaadshow YHWH bashaamayim kic’ow `eeynaayv yechzuw `af`apaayv yiVchanuw bneey aadaam:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

4 YHWH = 4 YaHuWH / ADONAI / the-LORD
bheeykhal = in-the-ability
qaadshow = of-His-holiness
YHWH = YaHuWH / ADONAI / the-LORD
bashaamayim = in-the-skies
kic’ow = His-covered-(seat)/throne
`eeynaayv = His-eyes
yechzuw = gaze
`af`apaayv = His-eyelids
yiVchanuw = contemplate
bneey = (the)-children
aadaam: = of-men/of-Adam:

And, although it calls the skies His “covered seat” or His “throne,” this is within the parameters of Isaiah 66:1 above. If the “expanse,” called “hashaamayim” in Hebrew, has no limit to how far it may expand, that would include the farthest reaches of space! ALL of “hashaamayim,” including “shaameey hashaamayim,” is God’s “throne!"

Your words: “Ever heard of the Pegasus? I don’t doubt your thoughts on the NJ but that is in the future, not now. If it’s just sitting out there in space where does the water come from and where does it go? The picture we are given doesn’t seem to apply to a space located city. One thing the bible never mentions in regards to the NJ is where are the angels? Where do they live? Would we or God even need them anymore? Perhaps because of their faithful service they inherit the planet of heaven as their home. Who knows! While I enjoy discussing this topic, I don’t think, because of all the unknowns, that it’s worth being contentious over. I can’t “prove” what I believe to be true anymore than we can “prove” to an atheist, the existence of God! It’s just something I believe by faith and if it’s untrue, it’s no big deal, I’m sure I’ll be just as happy in the presence of God, no matter where it is."

Seriously?! “Pegasus?!” PLEASE don’t resort to using Greek and Roman mythology to explain the Scriptures, as the Jews and later the third/fourth-century Christians did!

Regarding the New Jerusalem’s water, remember that this city, being under construction in outer space and having its twelve gates closed, is a CLOSED SYSTEM! Also remember that this city is 1,500 miles long, wide, and high! The water is simply given a water cycle to follow, much as it does on the surface of the earth. Y’know, the water vapor in the sky condenses into clouds, the clouds rain and fill the rivers and streams with run-off water, the water is collected in lakes, seas, and oceans, it evaporates and becomes the water vapor in the skies again. Something similar probably occurs within the walls of the New Jerusalem. The water is recycled, much as we try to do in our modern space vehicles, like the ISS.

Finally, what are “angels” if not God’s “messengers?” That’s what “aggeloi” means in Greek! It’s a whole other discussion, but many of the instances of “angels” in Scripture, I believe, are simply those who are “HUMAN messengers.” WILL they be needed any more? Not when the following occurs:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV


Hebrews 8:10-12
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
KJV

Instead, we have this info:

Revelation 22:3-4
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
KJV

We won’t need to be His messengers any longer; instead, we will just be His servants.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Retro, Your words: “But HOW can you even HAVE a “sense” of what you are “receiving from the HS” if you don’t take into consideration the terminology of the Scriptures?

There are things that the scriptures speak plainly about and there are some topics that are kind of vague, like heaven and the complete picture of the end-times. It is the vague areas in which I get a “sense”. I’m not saying what I believe is gospel, just that it’s the picture God puts in my head to make sense of those things that aren’t described in detail in scripture. Ten out of ten times those pictures make sense, so it works for me, it doesn’t have to work for you. You have your own way of making “sense” of things of which we are really quite ignorant.

Your words: “Let me make this plain: GOD ISN’T “DWELLING" ANYWHERE! EVERYWHERE one goes, God is PRESENT there! Anywhere and everywhere is God’s “base of operations!” God didn’t “dwell” in the Holy of Holies, neither in the Tabernacle nor in the first Temple that Smoh built nor in the second Temple built after the Captivity to which Herod made improvements!”

We have differing opinions on what God is like. You seem to view Him as a “presence” or an “energy” existing in the great span of everything-ness. I don’t. I see Him as an individual residing in the spiritual dimension who either through super advanced technology or utilizing the four beasts with many eyes, keeps tabs on things. Even man in his limited intellect can, via satellites, view just about everyone, everywhere on the earth at any given time from a single room. So in my opinion you’re limiting the scope of how God can operate.

Your words: “Big problems with the above! First, if “heaven” is a CITY, it too would have gardens and buildings, etc. You have nothing in Scripture to support your “heaven is a large planet” theory; there is MUCH in Scripture that supports the “mankind’s PERSPECTIVE of a ‘heaven’ is a large city, the New Jerusalem” theory!

Since heaven has always been, can there be a NJ before there was an earthly Jerusalem? Why should we limit God to the scope of our minimal understanding? Is there a verse that specifically states heaven is the NJ?

Your words: “Second, your interpretation of Galatians 4:26 is flawed and pulled out of its context:… Yerushalayim, the one where the disciples, who were children of Isra’el, first met, is above Mount Sinai - not necessarily in height or elevation, but in position and importance! It’s where the NEW covenant was given, as opposed to the old covenant which was given on Mount Sinai! It has NOTHING to do with the New Jerusalem!”

Galatians 4:25-26 - 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I never said anything about the NJ, I was thinking of the Jerusalem in heaven, which, imo, are two different things. In either of your suggested scenarios, an earthly Jerusalem was not free. No, the Jerusalem mentioned here is the same one from Heb. 12:22 – “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Your words: “Now, I’ve certainly taken time into consideration; however, you’re still under the delusion that God is localized to a particular place!” And, although it calls the skies His “covered seat” or His “throne,” this is within the parameters of Isaiah 66:1 above. If the “expanse,” called “hashaamayim” in Hebrew, has no limit to how far it may expand, that would include the farthest reaches of space! ALL of “hashaamayim,” including “shaameey hashaamayim,” is God’s “throne!"

I still believe that the “throne” is a seat, in a room, in a temple, in a Jerusalem, in heaven. But that in no way “limits” God. The spiritual realm is far different than our earthly realm, where the physical laws as we know them, do not apply.

Your words: “Seriously?! “Pegasus?!” PLEASE don’t resort to using Greek and Roman mythology to explain the Scriptures, as the Jews and later the third/fourth-century Christians did!

Why do you insist in limiting God to a mere human experience? I have no doubt that the earth and everything in and upon it are just a micro-fraction of all His creation.

Your words: “Finally, what are “angels” if not God’s “messengers?” That’s what “aggeloi” means in Greek! It’s a whole other discussion, but many of the instances of “angels” in Scripture, I believe, are simply those who are “HUMAN messengers.” WILL they be needed any more? Not when the following occurs:

But of course, I’m not speaking of the human messengers but the heavenly angels of which there are many millions if not billions more.

Jer. 33:22 – “As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.”

Matt. 26:53 – “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” (72,000)

Rev. 5:11 – “And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.”

That verse alone puts the number of angels well over 100 million.

Let me see if I can put this in a way you can relate to. Consider that God has capabilities way beyond mortal man. Our greatest advancement in computer technology is like an abacus to Him. Consider His mind as the greatest computer ever and humans with all their thoughts and emotions are like bits of data where everything is accessible to God at the blink of an eye. You don’t really think he has billions of angels sitting at their desks and writing in by hand every thought, word or gesture from every human that ever lived or will live, do you? Of course not, but God’s “data storage” capacity is far greater than anything humans can come up with. Every single thing that the human mind could ever imagine that is good, it can be said that “God’s been there, done that!” So I don’t “limit” God to terminology or by what I understand to be true. His word is just, again, a micro-fraction of all that He has done that He has given us access too. The rest of it will wait until we receive the proper “clearance” to attain, which will be when we receive our immortal, incorruptible bodies.

 

[keras]

Trekson started this thread with the words: 'I have been taught that heaven is our eternal home.....'
Paul told Timothy 1:7 that some teachers do not understand either the words they use or the subjects they are so dogmatic about.
Jesus said, Matthew 23:11 Many false prophets [teachers] will arise and mislead many.

What those, who have been taught by people they thought to be telling the truth, should do is find out from the source -the Bible. Does it say the righteous will be removed or does it say they will be protected?
There is no actual verse that says any humans will go to live in heaven, but very many tell how the Lord will protect His people. The prime example of that is in Daniel 3:19-27, where God protected the three Hebrew men in the fiery furnace.

[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 43:2 …walk thru fire and you will not be scorched…..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 50:3-6 Our God is coming and will not keep silent, consuming fire runs ahead of Him and around Him a great storm rages. He summons the heaven and earth to the judging of His people. Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those who by sacrifice have made a Covenant with Me. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 43:2 You will walk through fire and not be scorched, through flames, they will not burn you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Daniel 3:25, Jeremiah 30:4-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, them I will be made safe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 24:1-6…Though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death,….You are with me….[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defence for Israel. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Reference: Revised English Bible. [/SIZE]

 

[Born_Again]

That is actually very encouraging scripture. Thank you for posting that!

 

[ezekiel]

Trekson very will done. Lets look further into this at the New Heavens and Earth. At this time the Earth has been destroyed and the New Heavens are here we see that Christ the Prince of God standing at the east gate of heaven for his Glory shined on Earth.
Ezekiel 43
4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

Now no more souls will be allowed in to heaven til Christ makes peace rather they pay for what they have done. Man will reep what he has sown.

Ezekiel 44
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
Ezekiel 46
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Earth will be a moon just as Isaiah has said and all flesh will come before him.

46 Thus saith the Lord God; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Note that in the building of the temple the North gate or planet and a South gate which is the New Earth. The North gate or the planet that orbits in the north will replace Ancient Israel and the South Earth. but note that many other stars and planets also will be before the lord and will give charge to them the he loves.

18 And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;

So we see planets with stars all around the lords house blessed be his name.

Know this is just the tip of things.

 

[keras]

I totally disagree with your premise, Ezekiel, that 'the earth will become a moon'.
Throughout scripture it is the restoration of the earth and the salvation of His people, be they descendants of Jacob, or grafted in. Any outcome other than that means Satan will have won and God's creation was unsuccessful.
Just read Isaiah 35 for an amazing description of the restoration of all the Holy Land and Amos 9:13-15 for the redemption of His people.

 

[ezekiel]

keras We all know that God will do what ever he wants to do and sometimes tells us in his words. As for the satan he will win nothing but Gods plan and his will will be done. Now Christ has said that Isaiah speaks well so its wise to try to understand them words but i think earth will be destroyed.



Isaiah 24:20King James Version (KJV)
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel, what's the use, other that to cause confusion, in quoting 1 verse that seems to prove your point? [actually a poor translation; 'removed' isn't to be found in the Hebrew]

Isaiah 24:6 A curse consumes the earth....only a few inhabitants are left.
Isaiah 24:14-16 People raise their voices...from the ends of the earth we hear them sing.
Isaiah 25:23 The Lord is King on Mt Zion....He is revealed in glory to His people in Jerusalem. 2 Thess. 1:10, Rev 7:9, Rev 14:1
These verses prove the earth remains and the Lord's people go to live in the Holy Land.
There will be a 'new earth and a new heaven', at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

His people in Jerusalem in Isaiah 25;23 is not tied to 2Th 1:10 - there is no mention at all of the Church's disposition as to their "place" hereafter in that verse.

In Revelation 7:9 (through the end of that chapter) - the Great Multitude is found in the "barn of Heaven" as it were - the very presence of God the Father in Heaven. Furthermore, because of His Throne and the presence of the Altar (under which still are staying the martyred Saints) - this would be in the Temple in Heaven, not on earth.

Just as ludicrous is any assignment of saying we live on the earth by citing Revelation 14:1 for Jesus standing on the newly split Mount of Olives - as He does in accordance with Acts 1:11 and Zechariah 14:4. Furthermore, proof this does not concern the final disposition of the Church hereafter can be demonstrated by the sequence of events within the parallel account of the 'rise and fall of the anti-Christ' in the one 'seven' in chapters 13 through 16 of the book of Revelation.

In chapter 13, we see the first half whereby the fourth terrible beast a nation arises and from that, a beast of a man who is given authority (by God, He allows it) to rule for the first half. Coincidental with that is the appearance of the false prophet (from the land) who 1. rains down fire from the sky (a nuclear strike), 2. has authority over the Temple (head Rabbi), 3. sets up the abomination of Daniel 9:27 in tribute to the conquering King of the North, and 4. issues two laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible for Christians!

In Chapter 14, we see God's response to that final indignation of sin and in accordance with the sixth Seal, the 144,000 are mustered. Three Angels proceed to fulfill Mt 24:14, and then Jesus comes on the clouds gathering the earth's Harvest which is the same as happens in Mt 24;30-31 on the Day of the Lord. This is the Rapture. After which, Jesus delivers the wheat to the 'barn of Heaven' where no less an authority, and so much greater an authority than keras, an Elder, pronounces to John that the Great Multitude has indeed come out of the Great Tribulation, which we know from the Olivet Discourse is abruptly cut off by the sixth Seal arrival of the sun/moon/star event and the subsequent parousia of Jesus on the Day of the Lord.

God's Wrath follows immediately (by half an hour) in Revelation 14 and the end of that Wrath is spelled out in chapter 16.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ezekiel.

keras We all know that God will do what ever he wants to do and sometimes tells us in his words. As for the satan he will win nothing but Gods plan and his will will be done. Now Christ has said that Isaiah speaks well so its wise to try to understand them words but i think earth will be destroyed.

Isaiah 24:20King James Version (KJV)
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

Psalm 125:1-2
125 They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
2 As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.
KJV

Psalm 89:20-37
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Ecc 1:4, taken vastly out of context, Solomon, the teacher, is starting with naturally occurring "facts" in delving into human nature: the solid earth; the rising and setting of heavenly bodies; air currents and the evaporation of water. This is not a declaration from God that the earth will always be in place. That is your thinking. It conflicts with Revelation The permanence of the earth is an observer-true point of view: not a declaration by God that the earth will always stay the same.

"'Earth?' You call your home planet 'dirt?'" Q - in the Star Trek series.

Psalm 125 also does not establish a literal Mount Zion as an everlasting hill, but figuratively refers to God's help - 121:1-2; 124;8.

Likewise, his seed is like the moon, which reflects the brilliance of the sun. So too will God's light shine in us. The reference to the moon is also an observer-true point of view. In reality, we know the moon is moving away from the earth and has since it first collided with the earth eons ago.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

Ecc 1:4, taken vastly out of context, Solomon, the teacher, is starting with naturally occurring "facts" in delving into human nature: the solid earth; the rising and setting of heavenly bodies; air currents and the evaporation of water. This is not a declaration from God that the earth will always be in place. That is your thinking. It conflicts with Revelation The permanence of the earth is an observer-true point of view: not a declaration by God that the earth will always stay the same.

"'Earth?' You call your home planet 'dirt?'" Q - in the Star Trek series.

Psalm 125 also does not establish a literal Mount Zion as an everlasting hill, but figuratively refers to God's help - 121:1-2; 124;8.

Likewise, his seed is like the moon, which reflects the brilliance of the sun. So too will God's light shine in us. The reference to the moon is also an observer-true point of view. In reality, we know the moon is moving away from the earth and has since it first collided with the earth eons ago.

Do you believe the Scriptures or don’t you?

Y’know, we as a people never had a problem with calling our “planet,” “earth,” before space exploration.