Heaven

[Marcus O'Reillius]

By the very nature of your question, you're supposing you're using the Bible correctly - and you are putting yourself in the superior teaching position and myself as the poor student who 'doesn't believe.'

Bovine blossoms.

If you are going to teach, teach rightly. What you have given for evidence for the permanence of the earth does not authoritatively state that the earth is the dwelling place for God immortal forever.

And the Earth was not called a planet by those who used that word. Meaning little wanderer, it applied to the other orbiting bodies of our solar system which moved in respect to the stars.

I, at least, have a sense of humor in this discussion with the interjection of a different point of view which I find comical. Of all the things we could call our little bit of rocky real estate, we're not too imaginative are we?

But the earth is not permanent.

...and the first earth passed away... - Rev 21:1

Do you believe the Scriptures or don't you?

 

[Trekson]

Bovine blossoms cute

 

[ezekiel]

It is not man that has gave me this understanding for who else has said these things. In Revelations its said that he seen a New Heaven and Earth but I dont think God will replenish earth as in Gen 1 or as in after the flood.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. These are Christ words

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. And Peter who walk with Chirst said this.

Should I think it not to be as they have said in these verses or the understanding in these verses do not say what I see.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ezekiel.

It is not man that has gave me this understanding for who else has said these things. In Revelations its said that he seen a New Heaven and Earth but I dont think God will replenish earth as in Gen 1 or as in after the flood.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. These are Christ words

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. And Peter who walk with Chirst said this.

Should I think it not to be as they have said in these verses or the understanding in these verses do not say what I see.

And, this is where understanding that “heaven” means the “sky” comes in. And, we might throw in Marcus’ humor, as well. “Q" (from Star Trek: Next Generation) was RIGHT! We DO call our planet “dirt” because that is what “earth” means! For “heaven and earth” to “pass away” (which literally means to “pass by quickly”), the whole planet does NOT have to be destroyed! To the contrary, only the dirt and the gases of the sky need “pass by quickly!” Which is PRECISELY what Peter saw happening! It’s like a nuclear explosion churning up a massive cloud of debris and the gases rushing quickly from the blast, often surpassing the speed of sound causing a “thunderclap!” Even more impressive is the pyroclastic cloud from a sudden volcanic eruption, as that which occurred at Mount St. Helens back in 1980.

Why shouldn’t the Fire that Peter describes, which should be as much a global killer as was the Flood in Noah’s day, produce the same devastating results?! However, just as the Flood only affected the SURFACE of the earth, so should the Fire. God doesn’t need to destroy the whole planet, just burn off the surface where mankind’s corruption occurred.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Retro: doing more linguistic gymnastics to stay on this piece of dirt?

I also liked your "scientific" explanation how a cubic building 1500 miles by 1500 miles could "sit" on the earth and how you could still breath air at 14.7 psi 1500 miles up on this old earth you want to keep a hold of.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

Retro: doing more linguistic gymnastics to stay on this piece of dirt?

I also liked your "scientific" explanation how a cubic building 1500 miles by 1500 miles could "sit" on the earth and how you could still breath air at 14.7 psi 1500 miles up on this old earth you want to keep a hold of.

First, it’s not a “cubic building” but a pyramidal building. It’s the "MOUNTAIN of the Lord’s House.” (Isa. 2:2)

Second, such a structure COULD sit on the earth with “foundations” (Greek: themelioi) sunk into the surface of the earth, hardened by the Fire. (Heb. 11:10; 2 Pet. 3:13; 1 Cor. 15:26-28; Rev. 21:14-20)

Third, haven’t you - a pilot - ever heard of a “pressurized cabin?” With solid walls “great and high" that extend all the way to the pinnacle forming the “capstone,” a.k.a. the “headstone of the corner,” every floor of the city, however many there may be, can be pressurized and have a complete supply of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen for the plant life of the city’s extensive park system (paradeisos), which is in the median of the street wherever the street and the river of flowing water travel.

And, while it is the “old earth” in the sense of the core, mantle, and most of the crust of this earth, it will be a “NEW earth” having been renovated by Fire into a third earth, just like the second earth was a “new earth” compared to the antediluvian earth - the first earth.

Remember the words that John heard:

Revelation 21:3-4
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The model for the city is the Most Holy Place which originally was 15 cubits cubed.

It's a new earth: when God creates again, the old rules you know, like Boyles' Law and the second Law of Thermodynamics, entropy, need not be in place. God is the creator and I'm sure a more elegant solution than having to pressurize a structure 1,500 miles high (we hit space at 50 miles) will not be a problem so as to provide "air"; God is God after all: the master creator and your mind and mine are nothing like His.

Isaiah 2:2 is not referring to the new earth and the new heavens, but to the Millennium Kingdom on earth centered on Mount Zion.

The city we will have when memory of all this is no more, is more like living IN the Most Holy Place.

 

[ezekiel]

In my understanding this is from the book of Revelations you speak of. Note that it is times 100 that of a angel for the command from God to the Angels to build and that of God times 1000 this is the true math. This makes it about the size of Neptune and Uranus.

Keep your eyes in the west you will see the land afar off. Note that when the brass man that builds the temple are in the west then the angels will strike the anceint planet and the people of that city will flow on earth as Revelation and Ezekiel said.

 

[7angels]

what i find funny is that you guys are interpreting the Word of God. you quote scripture but then you go on to tell us what God meant when he said it. who are you or me that we can know the thoughts of God? i have heard of people that have stood with Jesus in space looking down at the earth. they breathed air normally where there should be no air possible. so how was this possible? so to say things are possible or impossible for God wrong. let us just agree that the earth will be renewed. what exactly that means i don't think we will know without God revealing it to us or until we get to heaven. when people start to say "this is saying or meaning …." i start to worry because then they are interpreting the Word instead of theWord interpreting itself.

God bless

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

The model for the city is the Most Holy Place which originally was 15 cubits cubed.

It's a new earth: when God creates again, the old rules you know, like Boyles' Law and the second Law of Thermodynamics, entropy, need not be in place. God is the creator and I'm sure a more elegant solution than having to pressurize a structure 1,500 miles high (we hit space at 50 miles) will not be a problem so as to provide "air"; God is God after all: the master creator and your mind and mine are nothing like His.

Isaiah 2:2 is not referring to the new earth and the new heavens, but to the Millennium Kingdom on earth centered on Mount Zion.

The city we will have when memory of all this is no more, is more like living IN the Most Holy Place.

IF the model for the city was the Most Holy Place, then what did the Holy Place (where the menorah and the table of show bread were) represent? What did the inner Temple court represent? What did the outer Temple court represent? I would rather think that the OLD Yerushalayim would be the model for the NEW Yerushalayim, the “OLD Yerushalayim" described by Yechezk’el (Ezekiel), that is.

Look at all the passages that speak of a pyramid:

Zechariah 4:6-9
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (capstone) thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
8 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.
KJV

Z’kharyahu’s (Zechariah’s) tomb is topped with the bas relief of a pyramid’s capstone!

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (chief stone of the angle, a capstone).
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV

One must pay attention to the clues in the following that is commonly read, but the pieces of the puzzle are seldom put together:

Daniel 2:29-45
29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV
Now, envision what we’ve read: Out of a mountain, a stone was CUT! Its shape is that which will grow into a huge mountain that fills the earth, presumably of the same shape. A cut stone is one that has facets. The word for “mountain” is NOT the typical word for “mountain” in Aramaic or Hebrew, “har.” It’s THIS word in each language:
OT:2906 tuwr (Aramaic) (toor); corresponding to OT:6697; a rock or hill:
KJV - mountain.

OT:6697 tsuwr (tsoor); or tsur (tsoor); from OT:6696; properly, a cliff (or sharp rock, as compressed); generally, a rock or boulder; figuratively, a refuge; also an edge (as precipitous):
KJV - edge, (mighty) God (one), rock, sharp, stone, strength, strong. See also OT:1049.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, such a “rock” would be cut from this jagged mountain also having the same sharp edges. The easiest shape to cut that could grow in its shape to form another such mountain would be a pyramid. Just think of typical stand-alone mountains; what shape do they typically have? Aren’t they conical? A four-sided pyramid is simply a four-sides “cone."

And, just to clear the air, I’m not advocating for any mystical usage of pyramids today. Before mysticism, the New World Order, or even the occult came along to abuse the form and misuse it for their own superstitions, the pyramid is a basic mathematical shape, and math is the "queen of the sciences” - GOD’S choices for the natural order of His Creation, which He created PERFECTLY within the six days of Creation. Furthermore, ALL of His natural laws were created perfectly with His Creation. The only exception is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy) which didn’t begin until the Fall! Only the results of the Fall need be corrected in the New Earth and Sky.

Finally, I should remind you that the Millennium, the FIRST 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign, shall be a time of Yeshua` SUBDUING His enemies (1 Cor. 15:20-28). Thus, it doesn’t actually fit that time frame.

Secondly, the terminology in Hebrew is that this mountain shall be “in head of the mountains (b-ro’sh hehaariym)”; that is, it will TOWER over the tops of the mountains!

Third, verse 3 (and 5) are quoted (although not directly) in Revelation 21:24, which is INDEED at the time of the New Earth! THAT is when they shall not learn war any more, not before the final battle at the end of Revelation 20!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Retro, again, you are misapplying verses to mean something you want to make the New Jerusalem into. You have a preconceived notion which does not square with the text and you will only argue incessantly and never waver no matter the evidence against what you advocate.

its length and width and height are equal.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

EVERY three-dimensional object has length, width, and depth (or height). Even a pyramid, which is also a 3-D object, has a length (the distance of either the north or south wall at its base), a width (the distance of either the east or west wall at its base), and a height (the distance from the center of the city to the pinnacle). All three measurements just have to be equal to fit that verse.

Furthermore, the verse that says that the city “lieth foursquare” simply means that the city covers a SQUARE AREA with its base!

Revelation 21:16
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
KJV

Apokalupsis 21:16
16 Kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai, kai to meekos autees tosounton estin hoson kai to platos. Kai to meekos kai to platos kai to hupsos autees isa estin.
Greek New Testament (UBS)

16 Kai = 16 And/Also
hee = the
polis = city
tetragoonos = four-angled
keitai, = lies,
kai = and/also
to = the
meekos = length
autees = of-it/its
tosounton = so-much
estin = are
hoson = alike/as
kai = and/also
to = the
platos. = width.
Kai = And/Also
to = the
meekos = length
kai = and/also
to = the
platos = width
kai = and/also
to = the
hupsos = height
autees = of-it/its
isa = equal
estin. = are.

16 And/Also the city four-angled lies, and/also the length of-it/its so-much are alike/as and/also the width. And/Also the length and/also the width and/also the height of-it/its equal are.

The verse never ONCE implies that the city was cubical! In fact, the verse never really says that all four angles are right angles, although it does imply that they are four EQUAL angles. Furthermore, we are told that there are four sides to the city, and it implies that it is aligned with true north:

Revelation 21:13
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV

Indeed, we are told that the city SHALL be aligned with north:

Psalm 48:1-2
1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
KJV

The “great King” does not refer to either David or Solomon; it refers to the Messiah or YHWH Himself! Thus, this is a MESSIANIC psalm, making this the FUTURE Yerushalayim. It’s also one of the passages that CONFUSES the mountain with the city!

The phrase “on the sides of the north” is the Hebrew phrase “yarkteey tsaafown” which means “flanks of-north” used for the meridians of a map! Furthermore, the phrase “beautiful for situation” comes from “yfeeh nowf,” meaning “beautiful for (its) ELEVATION!” I’d say that 1,500 miles is an elevation that would get the attention of the whole earth, wouldn’t you?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Mount Zion is on this earth, not the New Earth.

Any labored, linguistic contortion you'd pretzel Scripture into does not fit to the New Jerusalem.

Your equation is all wrong. And still, no matter how you cut it; it's 1500 miles HIGH and space starts at 50 miles...

Between a pyramid, because its base is square, and a cube; the latter is more like the Most Holy Place where God dwelt in the Tent of Meeting. Likewise, in the New Jerusalem, we will also live with God and not have need for a sun. This is a whole new paradigm, and your Millennium passages don't fit in to even come close to describing it.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I know there is a debate on when the NJ arrives. Is it at the beginning of the millennium or at the end? If one believes, as I do, in the mostly sequential timing of events in Revelations, then it appears to arrive after Satan is let loose to try and deceive the nations again. Which makes sense to me because all the descriptions of the new heavens and new earth suggest permanency and perfection and I don’t believe the devil would be allowed into that scenario. At the end of the millennium, the earth is destroyed by fire, something which won’t happen to the new heavens and earth.
So, in conclusion, yes we will spend some time in heaven before the eternal nature of the NJ comes to earth. The millennium is only a thousand years long so if you believe this verse:

2 Pet. 3:8 – “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” We’ll only be in heaven for about a day before our eternity on the new earth begins. Why is that so unreasonable to believe?

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

I believe there are three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven. The first harvest is the pre tribulational rapture wherein the O.T. saints will sit down with the disciples of the N.T. at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They have their inheritance in the city of God that will come down from Heaven after the great tribulation. These be the elect that had received the first inheritance to be like the angels that can die no more. They are not marrying nor given in marriage either.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The second harvest is of those wayward saints that have fallen away from the faith in apostaste error, those who no longer believe in Him for one reason or another, and those that live the wild life in sin without looking to Him as their Good Shepherd for help in discerning good and evil and in departing from iniquity to be found abiding in Him & His word as His disciple before the Bridegroom comes. These be the castaways ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 & John 15:1-9 KJV only ) that will become vessels unto dishonour in His House for not departing from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) They have their inheritance as vessels of wood and earth that shall serve as kings and priests for the milleniel reign of Christ. This is the prodigal son having lost his first inheritance and find he is still son and given a ring and a robe for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His and were left behind to suffer the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation to be partakers of His holiness ( Hebrews 12:1-29 ) They be partakers of the resurrection at the end of the great tribulation where the second death has no power over them; but that is not indicative that they cannot die any more, because it may very well be that to reign as kings and priests is to be married in serving the King of kings.

1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

The third harvest are those generations coming out of the resurrected castaways and survivors of the great tribulation that remain loyal to the Lord after Satan has been released from the pit after a thousand years for a small season for the last battle which Satan will lose. I am led to believe that after this final defeat of Satan, the resurrected castaways and those that sided with the Lord will eat from the tree of life and then death will be defeated at last.

This is why the first inheritance is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus as vessels of gold and silver are the celestiel glorified bodies that can never die and then there is the glorified resurrected terrestriel bodies that need to eat from the tree of life.

We all prophesy in part and know in part, but the important thing now is looking to & trusting the author & finisher of our faith to help us to discern every weight & sin in laying aside in running this race as our hope rests in Him to be received as vessels unto honour.

Very good, now combine 1Pe 3:22 with John 14:2-3:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That combines both the Rapture for those who are still alive and remain on the Earth after the Great Tribulation with their final destination of the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as the Great Multitude.

I believe there are plenty of scripture that refer to Jesus taking His disciples to where He is in His Father's mansion which is in Heaven as being before the great tribulation.

John 15:1-9 with verse six as to why some saved believers will be left behind for not trusting Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd for abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

This casting away is mentioned again for saved believers not praparing themselves to face the coming fire on the earth: Luke 12:40-49

Paul warned of this in running the race in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 with Hebrews 12:1-29.

Jesus even warned how believers can be overcharged for the cares of this life that as a snare they will not want to leave it; Luke 21:34-36 He spoke of a parable of the King's Supper where believers invited were excusing themselves for everyday care; Luke 14:15-24 Jesus went on to expound to the multitude the cost of discipleship is to be ready to leave this life and their loved ones; Luke 14:25-35

So every warning Jesus has given for readiness is towards the saved believers to look to Him for help to abide in Him as His disciples before the Bridegroom comes because the time of the rapture is not descriptive as happening during the great tribulation where the saints cannot buy nor sell because of the lack of the mark of the beast.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The irony of the Greek texts regarding verse 38 is that they will be taken away wind like flight and received with hospitality to entertain.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B42C017.htm

Those few modern versions that imply those taken away will be destroyed should remember the previous verses where those left behind were destroyed in order to know that the KJV has the closest, best, & correct translation.

Revelations 2nd chapter has the church of Thyatira threatened with being cast into the great tribulation unless they repent whereas in Revelations 3rd chapter the church at Phildelphia was given apormise to be kept from the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth which is the refusal of the mark of the beast in order to survive and thus die from because of it.

So there is a need to trust Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd more than ever now because we need Him to help us to discern and know His words as kept in the KJV to abide in Him & His words to be found ready as His disciples before the Bridegroom comes. This is why the voice of the Bride & bridegroom will not be heard in fallen Babylon any more because that door is shut forever in seeking that first inheritance of being a vessel unto honour in His House by His grace & by His help by faith in the Son of God for us..

 

[keras]

That the New Jerusalem will be on earth and look pretty much like a normal city, is clear from Joel 3:17 & 20 and Jer. 3:17-18
Also Revelation 21 describes an earthly city, where God's 'mansions' are.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

That the New Jerusalem will be on earth and look pretty much like a normal city, is clear from Joel 3:17 & 20 and Jer. 3:17-18
Also Revelation 21 describes an earthly city, where God's 'mansions' are.

I am disagreeing with you but only partially. Here's why.

Revelations 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelations 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Now for a city to come down, it has to have inhabitants before it can come down to be called a city; that means raptured saints.

Revelations 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I read the above reference of raptured saints, the door to the Marriage Supper is shut with the accuser cast out, and woe shall be pronounced upon the earth as the devil will persecute the inhabitants of the earth for the great tribulation knowing he has a short time.

Part of the raptured saints are the virgin men redeemed from the earth to serve as Jesus's personal choir in Revelations 14:1-5, but note how quickly Babylon falls as described in Revelations 18th chapter in this reference in Revelation below.

Revelations 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Between the first angel with the everlasting gospel and the third angel warning everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast, Babylon falls with unrepentant saints that are castaways. All of this precedes at or after the rapture setting up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth.

So there is a pre tribulational rapture when God shall judge His House; and Jesus is keeping His promise in taking the bride to her new Home above where He is now: New Jerusalem.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So the end of the great tribulation, then New Jeruslame and all of her inhabitants shall come down after Jesus as the King of kings leading the way.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

Mount Zion is on this earth, not the New Earth.

Any labored, linguistic contortion you'd pretzel Scripture into does not fit to the New Jerusalem.

Your equation is all wrong. And still, no matter how you cut it; it's 1500 miles HIGH and space starts at 50 miles...

Between a pyramid, because its base is square, and a cube; the latter is more like the Most Holy Place where God dwelt in the Tent of Meeting. Likewise, in the New Jerusalem, we will also live with God and not have need for a sun. This is a whole new paradigm, and your Millennium passages don't fit in to even come close to describing it.

<Sigh.> Okay, let’s try to untwist the pretzel of Scripture knowledge that YOU have twisted for yourself.

First, what’s the big deal about the city 1,500 miles high extending beyond the 50-mile limit of space? It changes NOTHING! Why is that a problem for you? How does that make my “equation” all wrong? If you’re thinking about the force of gravity, it does very little to that attraction. If you’re talking about the height of the city compared to the EARTH’S supply of air, each level will be pressurized so that, however high the floor of that level will be, the air pressure will be measured from THAT point and upward! Don’t make this harder than it needs to be! Does it matter at what altitude you are flying if you’re in a pressurized cabin?

Second, your ASSUMPTION that the New Jerusalem is patterned after the Holy of Holies is unsupported by Scripture! Why push it? It’s not necessary. In fact, it’s down right DETRIMENTAL to a right understanding of the Scriptures! Do you know WHY the city is best said to be a pyramid? The reason is simple: The curvature of the earth’s surface comes into play with a city the size of 1500 miles on a side! It covers 1500 miles / 24902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees of the earth’s circumference! That means that the direction for “down” at the middle gate of one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for “down” at the middle gate of the opposite side of the city! That peals a cube apart, spreading it farther on the top than at the bottom! If the walls were indeed perpendicular to the earth’s surface, its cross-section would look trapezoidal with curved bases! Even if it was an actual cube, the sides of the city would be parallel to the altitude of the city in the middle, sloping them in at 10.8425 degrees! Thus, even if it was an actual cube, it would have walls that APPEAR (from ground level) as though they were walls of a pyramid! (I’ve been thinking about this and doing the math for this for YEARS! I EXCELLED in geometry and trigonometry! I even helped my trigonometry professor develop an answer key for the textbook by working every problem in the book!)

Why do you think the “measuring stick” was called a “golden reed” (Greek: “kalamon chrusoun”) in Revelation 21:15 and 16? The answer to that is really quite easy, too, when one understands how great distances (such as 1500 miles) are measured. It’s a “hollow tube!” A “surveyor’s theodolite!” It also explains why Yochanan (John) was taken to a high mountain to watch the city descend to earth! The messenger had to be able to measure these great angles visually from a distant perspective.

NT:2563 kalamos (kal'-am-os); or uncertain affinity; a reed (the plant or its stem, or that of a similar plant); by implication, a pen:
KJV - pen, reed.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Third, you don’t know enough about “my Millennial passages” to know that they aren’t “Millennial passages!” Consider the following:

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV

That word translated “gloriously” is the Hebrew word “kaaVowd,” the same word found in the composite name “Iy-kaavowd,” Anglicized to “Ichabod.” It’s also the same word used in the following passages:

Exodus 24:16-17
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
KJV

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
KJV

Exodus 34:29-35
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
KJV

The bottom line is that the word means a LITERAL brightness, not just some “spiritual” brightness, as some have claimed. (Just what IS that anyway?!)

Thus, Isaiah 24:23 is talking about the LORD (YHWH) reigning in BRIGHTNESS!

Now, the verse uses personification for the sun being “ashamed” and the moon being “confounded,” but the wording actually means that the sun will be OUTDONE and the moon will be MIXED UP in its phases! It doesn’t mean that the sun and the moon will stop shining or that they will be destroyed. In fact, they must continue to shine as they always have for one to be able to compare God’s brightness against theirs!

Furthermore, we also are told WHERE this brightness will be localized:

Revelation 21:23
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
KJV

In a cube, the obvious location for the throne of God would be in the exact center of the cube. However, in a pyramid, the obvious location for the throne of God would be in the pinnacle of the pyramid! God is the source of the light, but Yeshua` haKeves (the Lamb) as YHWH’S Messiah and Representative King, is the LAMP!

Now, imagine a source of light 1500 miles high above the surface of the earth that outshines the sun! The moon is going to reflect BOTH sources of light, and its phases will be quite different than the four quarter system we see today!

Must you always be cantankerous and nay-saying? ENJOY the simplicity of what I’m talking about!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Well it's very simple to disagree with you Retro because your fanciful answers are always constrained within a limited box of your own thinking.

This earth is done away with entirely. Whatever the new earth is, it is beyond your meager comprehension so as to fit a structure 1500 miles long, wide, and high, which does match the cubic dimensions for the Most Holy Place in the original Tent of Meeting, without having to go through your geometric gymnastics.

By setting your creation on the earth with its present rules for physics, you are forced to come up with all kinds of simple engineering problems. You cannot pressurize the whole and have it be uniform in pressure throughout so that a single, simple light source can light it all.

You take a human perspective and force God to create within that earthly box and because of your limiting constraints of being on this small planet, you create problems you haven't even discovered, oh ye who teaches teachers and is the only one who spells Hebrew correctly.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Marcus. (And I DO mean have a "Sabbath of peace," bro’.)

Well it's very simple to disagree with you Retro because your fanciful answers are always constrained within a limited box of your own thinking.

This earth is done away with entirely. Whatever the new earth is, it is beyond your meager comprehension so as to fit a structure 1500 miles long, wide, and high, which does match the cubic dimensions for the Most Holy Place in the original Tent of Meeting, without having to go through your geometric gymnastics.

By setting your creation on the earth with its present rules for physics, you are forced to come up with all kinds of simple engineering problems. You cannot pressurize the whole and have it be uniform in pressure throughout so that a single, simple light source can light it all.

You take a human perspective and force God to create within that earthly box and because of your limiting constraints of being on this small planet, you create problems you haven't even discovered, oh ye who teaches teachers and is the only one who spells Hebrew correctly.

Bitterness does not become you, my brother!

First of all, I can see that much of your denial is simply a matter of perspective. The Scriptures NOWHERE says that “this earth is done away with entirely.” But then, we ALL have our “limited boxes of our own thinking” that “constrain” our “fanciful answers," don’t we?

Let’s play a little game:

Let’s assume that you’re correct and that the New Jerusalem is going to be a HUGE cube 1500 miles x 1500 miles x 1500 miles, patterned after the Holy of Holies. How large would the New Earth have to be so that it has similar dimensional perspective to the Holy of Holies on THIS earth?
I’m going to take the dimensions for the Tent’s Holy of Holies for THIS earth’s size (because it WAS sitting on this earth in its time) and convert it to that for the New Jerusalem:

I’ll start with your measurements of "15 cubits cubed” and use the 18-inch cubit to start. Thus, 15 cubits x 18 inches per cubit / 12 inches per foot = 22.5 feet cubed. (If we use the 21-inch Royal Cubit that was often used in Egypt, it would be 26.25 feet.) This would be 0.004261364 miles long, wide, and high (... or 0.004971591 miles for the Royal Cubit). Now, we stick this value into a ratio of proportions:

0.004261364 miles : 24902 miles :: 1500 miles : X miles.

Thus, the formula would be: X = 24902 x 1500 / 0.004261364 miles = 8,765,504,000 miles! Therefore, to have the same perspective as that of the Holy of Holies on this earth, the New Earth would have to have a circumference of 8.765504 BILLION miles! Even if we used the Royal Cubit, we’re still talking about a planet with 7.513289143 BILLION miles! That is, 7,513,289,143 miles! Written out, that’s "seven BILLION five hundred thirteen million, two hundred eighty-nine thousand, one hundred forty-three miles!" Is THAT what you’re saying? Should we calculate the gravitational pull on such a planet? Even the SUN only has a 2.719876-million-mile circumference! We’re talking about a circumference that is 2,762 times BIGGER than that of the sun at best (that is, using the Royal Cubit)! When one remembers from their science classes that the sun in 93 million miles away from the earth, this New Earth would be bigger than the sphere marked out from the sun that uses our radius to earth! In fact, it would be 7513289143 / 534335740 = 14 times bigger! It would be big enough to encompass the all the revolutions of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, the asteroid belt, Jupiter, and Saturn!

Anyway, that seems to me to be a MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM (pun intended) than my “geometric gymnastics!"

Let’s set that aside for the moment and look at your statement here (which I found much more interesting, btw):

You said, "By setting your creation on the earth with its present rules for physics, you are forced to come up with all kinds of simple engineering problems. You cannot pressurize the whole and have it be uniform in pressure throughout so that a single, simple light source can light it all."

Consider first that GOD HIMSELF “set" His Creation of our planet to those “present rules for physics,” and HE called them “very good” (Gen. 1:31). Why should He have to remake the entire Universe and change all the “rules for physics” when He’s done so well with this one? I’m not “limiting God” to anything; He can do as He wish (obviously), but does He really need to do this because WE don’t understand the words within His explanation for things? because WE don’t understand all there is to know about prophecy? because WE can’t yet see the big picture of what He will do for us in the future?

We are given just a handful of information about the New Jerusalem within the Scriptures. Neither you nor I know everything there is to know about such a city. We don’t know all the plumbing and the arrangement of mirrors and reflective surfaces and clear gems within the city; we don’t know if buildings will be shielded from the light of God as our present buildings are shielded from the sun; we don’t know if our future homes will have skylights, as many of our homes do now; we don’t know about all the transportation methods that might be used in such a city (although I know that many feel we’ll just be able to go <poof!> through walls or transport ourselves instantly anywhere we choose to go), but God didn’t SHOW us any of that! He was just giving us a brief insight of what we can expect! All we can do is to do our best to understand the puzzle pieces we DO have! I believe that God, through His Ruach haQodesh (His Holy Spirit), has given me a way to understand all the clues I see in the Scriptures, not only in Revelation 21 and 22, but everywhere else the Bible talks about the New Jerusalem. Should I not HONOR HIM by sharing that information? I will continue to do so, with or without your permission or approval.

You said, "You cannot pressurize the whole and have it be uniform in pressure throughout so that a single, simple light source can light it all,” but I’m having trouble understanding your reasoning here. How does pressurizing the atmospheres of the various levels affect how they are lighted? Are you thinking of solid, OPAQUE walls used to pressurize the various levels of the city? How does one affect the other? The 12 gemstones mentioned for the foundations are at worst translucent, and most can be transparent. They may have various hues and colors, but they will transmit most of the light. Besides, we are talking about a light source brighter than that of the sun. However God will get it done, it SHALL be done! Even if the light has to be transmitted through multiple mirrors and reflective surfaces as well as the transparency of the building materials, NO PART of the city will have need of the sun or the moon or light of a candle, and there will be no night there! (Rev. 22:5) But, again, just because the CITY has no need for the sun or the moon, that does NOT mean that the EARTH won’t have need for them!

Now, I SAID “pressurized” several times, but actually a sufficient quantity of air just has to be CONTAINED on the bottom and the sides within each level to produce a column of air with an air pressure comparable to the earth’s surface. The earth’s gravitational pull will do the rest.

My adult daughter pointed something out to me today: God’s Word must make sense to even the mathematicians. A mathematician should be able to read God’s Word and find sense; he should not be able to find flaws in it, even in the math. The Bible is true, not just for the layman but even for the mathematician. So, when a mathematician discovers truths in God’s Word that others don’t understand, why is it that the non-mathematician must snub the mathematician for the math that the non-mathematician doesn’t understand?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

A "column" of air loses one quarter of its pressure at 7250 feet. (About a mile and a half)
A "column" of air loses half it's pressure at 18,000 feet. (A little more than 3 miles)
A "column" of air loses three quarters of its pressure at 34,000 feet. (A little more than 5 miles)

People require about 60% of sea level pressure to breath normally, so we use 14,000 for an emergency activation of those portable oxygen generators above your airplane seats in the event of the loss of cabin pressurization.
Without pressurization, a "safe" altitude for flight is 10,000 - which isn't even two miles.

We're talking about 1500 miles here Retro and you're already in trouble in the first 3 miles...

So let's split up your pyramid every 3 miles and say that people will acclimate because God can make that happen and you have 500 floors of colored glass stones.

Now do you want to try and calculate the light intensity that would be required to light the bottom floor to normal room levels?

Remember that light spreads out at an inverse square of its source, so to get a "normal" illumination at 1500 miles through your earth-bound model, we're talking about powers which exponentially rise to intolerable levels much closer to Jesus in your multi-floored pyramid so at to make life hellish to say the least for the top two-thirds of it. How's that working out for you?

And we haven't even gotten into the physics of rotation yet so as to account for the earth's movement and subsequent gravity.

Retro: the more you try to fashion an earth-bound model, the harder it gets to swallow.

It's a new earth - the old one, this one is done away with! New earth; new heavens; new creation: new rules. God makes the rules.

Rev 20:11 The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”fn for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.