If Jesus was the Son of God before he became man...

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101G

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God is spirit, God's spirit is power, God's spirit is his right hand, God himself is the power and the spirit.

and the spirit of God hovered over the waters and said: Let there be! Through the right hand of God was everything created
the one in the same.

the SON is only the "ANOTHER" of God himself in flesh according to G243 allos. and the scriptures that reveals this is Isaiah 63:5

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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Only one time in the NT gospels do we hear from God directly. Mark 1 - at the baptism of Jesus. What does God tell us in this one and only time he speaks ? That Jesus is not God.
what a blunder, Mark 1 and all the Gospel are OT. untill when the Lord died on the cross.
this is just what the bible say about the blind leading the blind. Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

who is talking to us in the NT? God, and he is still talking to us right now.

for "by" his Son is him, his own "ARM", Isaiah 63:5b, "therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me" . my God when will they ever learn.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Heyzeus

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Only one time in the NT gospels do we hear from God directly. Mark 1 - at the baptism of Jesus. What does God tell us in this one and only time he speaks ? That Jesus is not God.
what a blunder, Mark 1 and all the Gospel are OT. untill when the Lord died on the cross.
this is just what the bible say about the blind leading the blind. Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

who is talking to us in the NT? God, and he is still talking to us right now.

for "by" his Son is him, his own "ARM", Isaiah 63:5b, "therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me" . my God when will they ever learn.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

My bad - let me correct my terminology - I am referring to the Synoptic Gospels.

God only speaks once "Directly" - the other time it is through Jesus - The Logos - Emissary between man and God - or through inspiration of mortals - such as Peter to Mark.

Nothing in your above post conflicts with this claim. .. nor does anything in the above show support for the Trinity in the Synoptic - Gospels..
Instead you post some passage from Isaiah that have nothing to do with the Trinity ?

How about we focus on Jesus .. rather than OT Messianic Tradition - where the Writers did not have any concept of today's modern Trinity - and Cyrus was the Christ - the Messiah - the Anointed one. Please find me a Jewish Scholar that backs up your claim - and good luck.

but lets say you are quazi successful - and the Scholar admits to the "possibility" of such an interpretation ..

How do you put this up against the vast number of claims contradictory to your premise - that come directly from the mouth of Jesus - in the Synoptics ?

The claim that the entire OT is "The word of God" is simply not accepted by the vast majority of Christianity - nor is this claim accepted by Biblical Scholarship in general.

Us normal Christians believe God is talking to us in "Some" of the NT / Some of the Bible.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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No they are not .. Angels are not the "Son's of God" ... that is a desperate attempt by Religious Scholars and copyists in the past to bury the Truth.

Biblical Scholarship today - recognizes the fact that the Israelite's were not monotheists. http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

Go to Page 7 to read how Deuteronomy 32:43 is supposed to read !

What you and these scholars choose to say what the truth is I could care less. Scholars, Religious leaders, and all those who side with them who are the ones who reason from the scriptures that The True God didn't send his Only Begotten Son to the World of Mankind (John 3:16) who reason that John 1:14 is saying it was God who became human and so is denying it was the Only Begotten Son of God that became human they can say that Angels were not Sons of God even though Job 1:6;38:7 proves differently, so they can say that the first man Adam that God created wasn't a Son of God but I will continue to believe what you say isn't true, mainly because you're imperfect just like the rest of mankind. What you and other imperfect men and women choose to believe is their choice. I believe the scriptures teach us that The True God has an Only Begotten Son because John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God at John 1:14;3:16,18;1John 4:9 and this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as the man Jesus. As the Logos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the World was."(John 1:1,2;17:5,24) At that time of his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the "Only Begotten Son" whom his Father sent "into the world."(1John 4:9)
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Love for God and his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ for your fellow man especially for your spiritual brothers and sisters is what the scriptures teach us.
 

Heyzeus

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What you and these scholars choose to say what the truth is I could care less. Scholars, Religious leaders, and all those who side with them who are the ones who reason from the scriptures that The True God didn't send his Only Begotten Son to the World of Mankind (John 3:16) who reason that John 1:14 is saying it was God who became human and so is denying it was the Only Begotten Son of God that became human they can say that Angels were not Sons of God even though Job 1:6;38:7 proves differently, so they can say that the first man Adam that God created wasn't a Son of God but I will continue to believe what you say isn't true, mainly because you're imperfect just like the rest of mankind. What you and other imperfect men and women choose to believe is their choice. I believe the scriptures teach us that The True God has an Only Begotten Son because John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God at John 1:14;3:16,18;1John 4:9 and this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as the man Jesus. As the Logos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the World was."(John 1:1,2;17:5,24) At that time of his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the "Only Begotten Son" whom his Father sent "into the world."(1John 4:9)

Why are you quoting NT passages that have nothing to do with "the other" Son's of God - This conversation is not about Jesus - but about these other beings described in the OT - written by folks who had no idea about Jesus. This is not about what you believe the text to mean .. this is not about what I think the text means.

This is about what the Israelite's believed the Text meant ... Do you understand this distinction ? If so .. then we can communicate on this topic further ... if not .. then we must figure out how to get you to understand this distinction.

The question I am after is "What did the Israelite's interpret "Sons of God" to mean. ..as it that is the only perspective that matters among the three of us.

Fortunately - we know a fair bit about what the Israelite's believed - both through the Bible but also through Archaeology and History.

Care to take a stab at it prior me to telling you the correct answer :) ?!

On Job - "Satan was among them" .. so Satan is on of the "Son's of God" - not sure what else you would like to say about Job .. but clearly it argues against your position.

unless of course - you want to argue that Satan is just some bad angel among the crowd - which gets even more humorous from the perspective of the ancient Israelite's.

Now if you want to Change the topic to Jesus - which you seem want to do - we can talk about the interaction between Jesus and "the Angel"
right at the beginning of the NT - talk about the parallels to the advocate in Job - an advocate with some rather amazing powers .. seemingly above that of a lowly angel .. but hey .. who am I to argue semantics as this will not matter to the moral of the story.
 

Heyzeus

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Love for God and his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ for your fellow man especially for your spiritual brothers and sisters is what the scriptures teach us.

I would hope one would get more out of the scriptures that that .. but each to his own :)
 

DaChaser

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1) John 1 - the Logos Concept was explained to you. John 1 does not support the claim that Jesus was God - hence why Bible dictionaries state there is no Trinity Expressed in the NT.

2) Once again your avoid addressing the words of Jesus - in an effort to maintain your blindness - desperately hoping that posting vague passages from Isaiah will cancel the Truth given to you by our Lord - in simple direct language.
Every reputable Koine greek scholar will say that John stated that jesus is God, but that he is not the father!
 

DaChaser

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first, thanks for the reply, second, Jesus is no angel, but spoke through the angel. listen, Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."Hebrews 1:7 "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

so clearly from hebrews here we see Jesus is no angel.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
THE Angel of Yahweh in the OY was not a created Angel, but was Yahweh Himself appearing in a human like form!
 

Heyzeus

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Every reputable Koine greek scholar will say that John stated that jesus is God, but that he is not the father!

I agree ! The Gospel of John Elevate's the divinity of Jesus - above that of the Synoptics -

The Jesus of John was an emanation from the Godhead - the emissary between man and God - an emissary made flesh.. and what a lovely vision. Too bad some 225 years later .. a pagan Emperor changed the path of doctrine .. turning Jesus into God - The Father.

but - this is how it works these things .. this happened with YHWH was well YHWH was transformed into El - God of Abraham - "the Father" "Most High" "Creator" "Chief God of the Pantheon" the speaking voice in Psalm 82 - El Shaddai - God of the Mountain -

Just as Jesus was a Son of God... YHWH was a Son of El - one of 70 or so according to tradition .. Deut 32 - over time .. the traits of El were fused onto YHWH .. a process known as Syncretism
 

DaChaser

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I agree ! The Gospel of John Elevate's the divinity of Jesus - above that of the Synoptics -

The Jesus of John was an emanation from the Godhead - the emissary between man and God - an emissary made flesh.. and what a lovely vision. Too bad some 225 years later .. a pagan Emperor changed the path of doctrine .. turning Jesus into God - The Father.

but - this is how it works these things .. this happened with YHWH was well YHWH was transformed into El - God of Abraham - "the Father" "Most High" "Creator" "Chief God of the Pantheon" the speaking voice in Psalm 82 - El Shaddai - God of the Mountain -

Just as Jesus was a Son of God... YHWH was a Son of El - one of 70 or so according to tradition .. Deut 32 - over time .. the traits of El were fused onto YHWH .. a process known as Syncretism
Jesus is God, just as the father and the Holy Spirit are also!
 

Heyzeus

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Jesus is God, just as the father and the Holy Spirit are also!

Repeating your premise over and over - is not proof of claim.

The early Church believed that Jesus was not the Father .. nor God "just as the Father" - Jesus was viewed as subordinate to the Father by the early Church .. early Church Fathers - the disciples - and Jesus himself.
 

DaChaser

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Repeating your premise over and over - is not proof of claim.

The early Church believed that Jesus was not the Father .. nor God "just as the Father" - Jesus was viewed as subordinate to the Father by the early Church .. early Church Fathers - the disciples - and Jesus himself.
Jesus was viewed as being very God of very God!
 

Heyzeus

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Jesus was viewed as being very God of very God!

Ok ... just not "The Father" - El Elyon El Shaddai - God on High .. the top of the mountain .. Creator "The Father" and all the other epithets the God of Abraham was known by ... later assumed by YHWH .. a different Son of El . and now Jesus .. also a son of El ... our God . our Creator.

but yes .. they are all one .. as in all of the same family .. When you get through the pearly gates .. Sataniel is your butler .. and your travel advisor.. the advocate ... Your advocate .. and conscience .. a mother like no other .. in the hallowed halls.
 

101G

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yes it does at Job1:6;38:7 you can choose to disbelieve that all you want.
First thankls for the reply, second no reson to beliece what we want when the bible is clear as day.

I have answered this question countless of times, In the topic “GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!” read post #131
Here is the LINK.
GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!

That answers your question.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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THE Angel of Yahweh in the OY was not a created Angel, but was Yahweh Himself appearing in a human like form!
ERROR, listen as to God communicate with us in the OT, LISTEN, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

in the OT, God spoke in divers manners, ok, HOW? scripture, Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

see that DaChaser? God spoke by a. prophets, b. visions, and he used c. similitudes
and that's similitudes with a "s" at the end, so what is a similitude
H1819 דָּמָה damah (daw-maw') v.
1. to compare.
2. (by implication) to resemble, liken, consider.
[a primitive root]
KJV: compare, devise, (be) like(-n), mean, think, use similitudes.

God used different methods, ways and means, as the definition states, (devise) to speak to us. so all that, "the Angel of Yahweh is God", get that nonesense out of your head.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
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Heyzeus

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God used different methods, ways and means, as the definition states, (devise) to speak to us. so all that, "the Angel of Yahweh is God", get that nonesense out of your head.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Exactly ....
 

101G

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yes it does at Job1:6;38:7 you can choose to disbelieve that all you want.
oh yes, I forgot your Job 1 and 6.

I have stated this a many of times also, In the topic “The book of Job - real or allegorical?” read post #67
Here is the LINK.
The book of Job - real or allegorical?

sons of God are not angels but humans,

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"