Is There Different Beliefs Among Catholics? Chrislam Movement?

[Jane_Doe22]

From lds.org:

Who do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is?
Like most Christians, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Creator of the World. However, Mormons hold the unique belief that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Mormons believe that God and Jesus Christ are wholly united in their perfect love for us, but that each is a distinct personage with His own perfect, glorified body (see D&C 130:22).

This is NOT the Godhead of Christianity nor the Trinity.

And there you ar,

From lds.org:

Who do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is?
Like most Christians, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Creator of the World. However, Mormons hold the unique belief that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Mormons believe that God and Jesus Christ are wholly united in their perfect love for us, but that each is a distinct personage with His own perfect, glorified body (see D&C 130:22).

This is NOT the Godhead of Christianity nor the Trinity.

and there you are, trying to inform somebody what they believe rather than listen.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And there you ar,
and there you are, trying to inform somebody what they believe rather than listen.

What I gave you was an official statement from an official LDS source.
Do you believe I'm making this up?

What would I have to gain from this??

Do you deny that Mormonism teaches that God the Father is essentially a "perfected man" and is limited by a body of flesh and bone??
That He lives on a planet near an uncharted star called "Kolob" (Abraham 3:3‐9, Joseph Smith)??

Since Mormons worship both God the Father (Doctrine and Covenants 18:40) and Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 11:17; 2 Nephi 25:29), and since they believe the Father and Jesus are two separate gods, they truly are polytheists.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What I gave you was an official statement from an official LDS source.
Do you believe I'm making this up?

What would I have to gain from this??

Do you deny that Mormonism teaches that God the Father is essentially a "perfected man" and is limited by a body of flesh and bone??
That He lives on a planet near an uncharted star called "Kolob" (Abraham 3:3‐9, Joseph Smith)??

Since Mormons worship both God the Father (Doctrine and Covenants 18:40) and Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 11:17; 2 Nephi 25:29), and since they believe the Father and Jesus are two separate gods, they truly are polytheists.

I believe and know that you misunderstannd.

The question would be whether you’re willing to get the record straight, as you urge others here to get the record straight on what Catholics believe.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe and know that you misunderstannd.

The question would be whether you’re willing to get the record straight, as you urge others here to get the record straight on what Catholics believe.

Sure - set me straight.

I posted official statements from lds.org.
If you believe that your statements supercede those of lds.org and the documnts from Joseph Smith - then, please set me straight.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sure - set me straight.

I posted official statements from lds.org.
If you believe that your statements supercede those of lds.org and the documnts from Joseph Smith - then, please set me straight.

Ok, I’ll reply to this more thoughly when i’m at my computer in a few minutes.

Did you want me to reply here (which is a detail), pm, another thread, or somewhere else?

 

[bbyrd009]

Catholics are Christians. We are the original Christians.

the orig usurpers/strong men, you mean

I believe all people who believe in the Trinitarian God, confess their sins and trust is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, are Christian.

believe whatever you like, but that does not make it true, aspen. Those that believe as you do are respectfully behind that boundary stone you have violated, and if you keep this up i will have your head, too! Didnt you just get out of rehab, bro? No offense but do you think you are the best candidate to be teaching anything?

" Quirinus

The ancient (probably pre-Roman Sabine) war god Quirinus, whose traditional sanctuary was situated on Quirinal Hill, later one of Rome's signature seven hills. Roman mythologists elaborated on the character and functions of Quirinus, by having the victorious founder Romulus turn into Quirinus upon his death and ascension into the heavens.

In Augustan times, the worship of the Roman state was hip and considered salvific (and thus compulsory)(edit, pretty much ezackly what Catholics believe we should all be believeing, see, all marching in lock-step to One Guy we all hail as "king"), and the Roman state was represented by a triad of gods — initially Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus and later, as the state evolved, Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. It's significant that Quirinus was mostly associated with the general populace at peace (subsequently called quirites), which obviously lost much of her respectability when the senate-governed Republic degenerated into the totalitarian Empire.

Note that Quirinus' most dominant symbol was the myrtle, which obviously also plays a major part in the Bible as symbol of virtuous foreigners who do good despite unfamiliarity with Torahic prescriptions (Zechariah 1:8)..." The amazing name Quirinius: meaning and etymology

so wadr piss off, and have a nice day ok

now dont get me wrong, as you say my beliefs do not align with most of the prots here who are kissing a diff ring, yes, but then they all pretty much start playing Dodge Boys when i start Quoting Scripture too, huh

clear enough?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ok, I’ll reply to this more thoughly when i’m at my computer in a few minutes.

Did you want me to reply here (which is a detail), pm, another thread, or somewhere else?

Just post here.

I would like for you to correct me on the information I gleaned about the Mormon view of the nature of God.
Trinity, separate deities, relationship between Jesus and Satan/Lucifer (are they brothers), etc.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Just post here.

I would like for you to correct me on the information I gleaned about the Mormon view of the nature of God.
Trinity, separate deities, relationship between Jesus and Satan/Lucifer (are they brothers), etc.

Ditch the ego BOL. Such is screaming “I shall inform you what you believe and don’t care if it’s accurate “.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ditch the ego BOL. Such is screaming “I shall inform you what you believe and don’t care if it’s accurate “.

No ego here.
I just want to know about the Mormon understanding of the nature of God from YOU because you seem to have a different view than that of the official teachings of the rest of Mormonism.

You should probably lose the defensive attitude and state your point.
Leave emotion at the door . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Ditch the ego BOL. Such is screaming “I shall inform you what you believe and don’t care if it’s accurate “.

"for the record" lol

and apologies for earlier, xenforo used to put an "ignored content" banner between posts, and is now no longer doing so

 

[bbyrd009]

the orig usurpers/strong men, you mean

believe whatever you like, but that does not make it true, aspen. Those that believe as you do are respectfully behind that boundary stone you have violated, and if you keep this up i will have your head, too! Didnt you just get out of rehab, bro? No offense but do you think you are the best candidate to be teaching anything?

"Quirinus

The ancient (probably pre-Roman Sabine) war god Quirinus, whose traditional sanctuary was situated on Quirinal Hill, later one of Rome's signature seven hills. Roman mythologists elaborated on the character and functions of Quirinus, by having the victorious founder Romulus turn into Quirinus upon his death and ascension into the heavens.

In Augustan times, the worship of the Roman state was hip and considered salvific (and thus compulsory)(edit, pretty much ezackly what Catholics believe we should all be believeing, see, all marching in lock-step to One Guy we all hail as "king"), and the Roman state was represented by a triad of gods — initially Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus and later, as the state evolved, Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. It's significant that Quirinus was mostly associated with the general populace at peace (subsequently called quirites), which obviously lost much of her respectability when the senate-governed Republic degenerated into the totalitarian Empire.

Note that Quirinus' most dominant symbol was the myrtle, which obviously also plays a major part in the Bible as symbol of virtuous foreigners who do good despite unfamiliarity with Torahic prescriptions (Zechariah 1:8)..." The amazing name Quirinius: meaning and etymology

so wadr piss off, and have a nice day ok

now dont get me wrong, as you say my beliefs do not align with most of the prots here who are kissing a diff ring, yes, but then they all pretty much start playing Dodge Boys when i start Quoting Scripture too, huh

clear enough?

"Janus Quirinus

Quirinus was also a minor epithet of the major deity Janus, who guarded beginnings and transitions. Particularly his presiding over the transition between a state of war and the state of peace was marked by his epithet Quirinus. Janus was honored with a temple in Rome that was built by an ancient king named Numa, and which was equipped with huge doors. During times of peace these doors would be closed, but during times of war they would be open, sometimes for centuries on end.

In the time of Jesus, the doors frequently opened but were shut again with ever greater fanfare as the concept of peace became more and more revered and was ultimately deified as Pax under Augustus. That means that the term "open door" became synonymous with a period of war (REVELATION 3:7-8, MATTHEW 16:18), and when Jesus says, "knock and the door will open" (MATTHEW 7:7), he's not talking about supplicatory prayer to God (in Jewish tradition, God does not reside behind a door) but warns that if resistance against the Romans (the swine mentioned in 7:6, see our article on the name Legion) drops off the platform of open debate and plummets into the basin of violence, the door of Janus' temple will certainly open against the Jews. And of course he was right.

The ancient king Numa not only built Janus' temple, he also issued a set of royal laws, or leges regia. One of these laws was called spolia opima, which described the ritual concerning the stripping of a defeated enemy regent, and that included an offer to Janus Quirinus and the sacrifice of a lamb. The stripping of Jesus' clothes, so emphatically mentioned by the evangelists, obviously corresponds with this rite."

 

[bbyrd009]

"...All these associations combined make it clear that Quirinus was not simply a war god but rather a great defender and keeper of the peace. As literary character, Quirinus obviously makes a very close parallel to basic structure of the Biblical universe, as the evangelists undoubtedly were quite aware of. Their view on Rome was not that it was innately evil, but rather that it had once started as a most glorious of human endeavors but had become corrupt until it became the utterly blasphemous Empire with its ridicules divine emperor. Many, even among the Romans, mourned the loss of that original innocence, and tried to steer Rome back to its former glory and righteousness." ibid

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No ego here.
I just want to know about the Mormon understanding of the nature of God from YOU because you seem to have a different view than that of the official teachings of the rest of Mormonism.

You should probably lose the defensive attitude and state your point.
Leave emotion at the door . . .

Ok, for this this explanation I’m going to be explain the views/beliefs/teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All quotes are from books considered by LDS Christians to be scriptures, marking non-Bible ones with * to be super transparent.

Point 1) ““We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” (Articles of Faith 1:1) The Father, Son, and Spirit are all God and are three divine different persons. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself and the voice from Heaven saying “this is my beloved Son in whom I’m well pleased” (Mathew 3:17) is not an act of ventriloquism. It isn’t one person taking on different roles (modalism), but three different persons. At some points in scripture God is used in plural (example: “And God said, Let us make man in our image” Gen 1:26). Classical Trinitarians agree on this.

Point 2) There is ONE God. Three persons, but ONE God. Classical Trinitarians agree on this as well. Quick sample list of scripture verses saying this:
- I and my Father are one, John 10:30.
- that they might know thee the only true God, John 17:3.
- to us there is but one God, 1 Cor. 8:6.
- they are one God, Mosiah 15:4 * (3 Ne. 11:36; * D&C 20:28*).
- sing … unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, Morm. 7:7. *

Point 3) “Monotheism” is defined as the worship of one God. While Muslims and others may throw those tired “three persons isn’t one God!” arguments, frankly, I’d rather skip discussing those tired arguments we’ve all heard a million time. The Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God. To honor the Father is to honor the Son, to yield to the Spirit is to yield to the Son, etc. You can’t choose to go “well, I just want to follow Christ and disobey the Father!” – such is downright silly. They are one and both LDS Christian and Classical Trinitarians are monotheism, even if it’s different than monotheism in Islam.

Point 4) How three person are one God: this is where the difference between LDS Christian beliefs and Athanasian Christian beliefs is. For LDS Christians, God is one via unity—“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me” John 17:21, D&C 35:2*. That’s it. There’s no Athanasian Creed stating saying that they are one througha substance/essence (“…but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. “ Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia). No “three persons but one being” with long confusing explanations as what’s a “being” versus what’s a “person”, while trying to stay away form modalism. Just three different persons in ONE God via unity.

Point 4b) How does the above impact day-to-day living as a disciple of Christ: honestly, not much. Not to downplay the importance of academic theology, but there isn’t much day-to-day impact here. Each having a relationship with Christ, whom majesty we don’t much understand, trying to follow Him. I don't remotely find such to be a reason for anyone to point and scream "you're not really a Christian because you can't be because your salvation is dependent on your ability to pass this theology test!!". Such is downright silly actually. Yes theology is important, but it's discipleship that makes one a Christian (Act 11:20).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ok, for this this explanation I’m going to be explain the views/beliefs/teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All quotes are from books considered by LDS Christians to be scriptures, marking non-Bible ones with * to be super transparent.

Point 1) ““We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” (Articles of Faith 1:1) The Father, Son, and Spirit are all God and are three divine different persons. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself and the voice from Heaven saying “this is my beloved Son in whom I’m well pleased” (Mathew 3:17) is not an act of ventriloquism. It isn’t one person taking on different roles (modalism), but three different persons. At some points in scripture God is used in plural (example: “And God said, Let us make man in our image” Gen 1:26). Classical Trinitarians agree on this.

Point 2) There is ONE God. Three persons, but ONE God. Classical Trinitarians agree on this as well. Quick sample list of scripture verses saying this:
- I and my Father are one, John 10:30.
- that they might know thee the only true God, John 17:3.
- to us there is but one God, 1 Cor. 8:6.
- they are one God, Mosiah 15:4 * (3 Ne. 11:36; * D&C 20:28*).
- sing … unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, Morm. 7:7. *

Point 3) “Monotheism” is defined as the worship of one God. While Muslims and others may throw those tired “three persons isn’t one God!” arguments, frankly, I’d rather skip discussing those tired arguments we’ve all heard a million time. The Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God. To honor the Father is to honor the Son, to yield to the Spirit is to yield to the Son, etc. You can’t choose to go “well, I just want to follow Christ and disobey the Father!” – such is downright silly. They are one and both LDS Christian and Classical Trinitarians are monotheism, even if it’s different than monotheism in Islam.

Point 4) How three person are one God: this is where the difference between LDS Christian beliefs and Athanasian Christian beliefs is. For LDS Christians, God is one via unity—“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me” John 17:21, D&C 35:2*. That’s it. There’s no Athanasian Creed stating saying that they are one througha substance/essence (“…but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. “ Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia). No “three persons but one being” with long confusing explanations as what’s a “being” versus what’s a “person”, while trying to stay away form modalism. Just three different persons in ONE God via unity.

Point 4b) How does the above impact day-to-day living as a disciple of Christ: honestly, not much. Not to downplay the importance of academic theology, but there isn’t much day-to-day impact here. Each having a relationship with Christ, whom majesty we don’t much understand, trying to follow Him. I don't remotely find such to be a reason for anyone to point and scream "you're not really a Christian because you can't be because your salvation is dependent on your ability to pass this theology test!!". Such is downright silly actually. Yes theology is important, but it's discipleship that makes one a Christian (Act 11:20).

Then, explain why lds.org states the following:

Who do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is?
Like most Christians, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Creator of the World. However, Mormons hold the unique belief that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Mormons believe that God and Jesus Christ are wholly united in their perfect love for us, but that each is a distinct personage with His own perfect, glorified body (see D&C 130:22).

This states that the Father are Son are TWO DISTINCT BEINGS.
That's TWO gods.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Then, explain why lds.org states the following:

Who do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is?
Like most Christians, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Creator of the World. However, Mormons hold the unique belief that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Mormons believe that God and Jesus Christ are wholly united in their perfect love for us, but that each is a distinct personage with His own perfect, glorified body (see D&C 130:22).

This states that the Father are Son are TWODISTINCT BEINGS.
That's TWO gods.

Remember how I said LDS Christians don't have a special "person versus being" definitions? (Point 4 in post 93).

The Father and Son are two different persons. One, two.

Yet ONE God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Remember how I said LDS Christians don't have a special "person versus being" definitions? (Point 4 in post 93).

The Father and Son are two different persons. One, two.

Yet ONE God.

This is straight out of Doctrine And Covenants, Section 130, Doctrine and Covenants 130
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

This is NOT the God of Scripture. IT is a different god altogether.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is straight out of Doctrine And Covenants, Section 130, Doctrine and Covenants 130
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

This is NOT the God of Scripture. IT is a different god altogether.

John 4:24 states emphatically:
"GOD IS SPIRIT, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This is straight out of Doctrine And Covenants, Section 130, Doctrine and Covenants 130
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

This is NOT the God of Scripture. IT is a different god altogether.

Before we move on to talking about physicality or sola scriptura, could you respond to my post about the Father Son and Spirit being three different divine persons in ONE God?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Before we move on to talking about physicality or sola scriptura, could you respond to my post about the Father Son and Spirit being three different divine persons in ONE God?

Sorry - but that's not how it is articulated in Mormon theology.
The Father and Son are recognized as totally separate beings.

The information about the Father having a body of flesh and bones contradicts Sacred Scripture and therefore, also destroys the idea of a Mormon "Triune" God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sorry - but that's not how it is articulated in Mormon theology.
The Father and Son are recognized as totally separate beings.

The information about the Father having a body of flesh and bones contradicts Sacred Scripture and therefore, also destroys the idea of a Mormon "Triune" God.

Again: LDS Christians don’t have special definitions for “person” versus “being”. See post 93.