Is your Faith in the Bible or is it in God?

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Wrangler

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We are discussing the doctrine of @Wrangler on so-called scripture idolatry.

Your post is not addressing these things.
It does address it. I’m sorry you are so contentious.

I have several Bible translations. CEV, NLT, I have read cover to cover. NRSV and CJB, I’m 80% done in devotional reading. The VOICE and ESV, I read as the Spirit leads me.

Naturally, the translations take on various verses are subtly different. Given your position they are, in and of themselves, holy and worthy of worship, how do the differences get reconciled?
 

Michiah-Imla

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@Wrangler pretty please, with sugar on top… show out of the scripture where the scripture says that the scriptures where made an idol.

I have never seen a person have an altar with a Bible on an elevation bowing down to it and saying, Speak unto me thou great and mighty Bible.

Heck, I haven’t even seen so much as a statue of a Bible with no real pages in it where people gathered around to bow before it.

Such nonesense!
 
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Jim B

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as this source puts it...and it does capture some of it...

Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” (Matt. 16:6, Mark 8:15, Luke 12:1), “Then they (The Disciples) understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:12)

“Doctrine” translated to the Greek word didachēs means “instructions” and “teachings.” This command to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees were meant for anyone who call themselves “Christian” (disciples of Jesus Christ). So why is it that so many professing Christians cannot seem to identify this teaching and are so easily deceived? Its simple, Christians are more involved in the religious aspects of Christianity rather than the Truths of God’s Word…ironically we set aside the “Doctrine” of Christ and embrace the very thing He warned us about—the Doctrine of the Pharisees.

Doctrine of The Pharisees

It's always a warning to me when anyone says something on the order of "why is it that so many professing Christians cannot seem to identify this teaching and are so easily deceived?" Have you polled "so many professing Christians" and come to the conclusion that you know more than they do? You're not deceived, but they are? Who are you to judge the believers?
 

Lizbeth

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No Lizbeth, I never said anything re practicing "spiritual breathing" but I'd wager there's a lot on YouTube and Google on this topic.

I like the way you put it, the reading and taking in the scriptures, never forget the Holy Spirit sister...


Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves.

In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating.


Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, “if these things had it thus.”

The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021).

The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).
Robertson.

Luk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
Luk 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luk 24:17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
Luk 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
Luk 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Luk 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
Luk 24:23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
Luk 24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


Luk_24:32. ἡ καρδία καιομένη, the heart burning, a beautiful expression for the emotional effect of new truth dawning on the mind; common to sacred writers (vide Psa_39:4, Jer_20:9) with profane.

Their heart began to burn while the stranger expounded Scripture, and kept burning, and burning up into ever clearer flame, as He went on—“valde et diu,” Bengel.

It is the heart that has been dried by tribulation that burns so. This burning of the heart experienced by the two disciples was typical of the experience of the whole early Church when it got the key to the sufferings of Jesus (Holtzmann, H. C.). Their doubt and its removal was common to them with many, and that is why the story is told so carefully by Lk.—ὡς ἐλάλει, ὡς διήνοιγεν (without καὶ), as He spoke, as He opened, etc.; first the general then the more specific form of the fact.
Expositors Greek Testament.

Don't want to "bomb" you with unnecessary long posts Lizbeth, stay strong in Christ Jesus, rooted and grounded in Him and all for His glory, nothing of self.
J.

Amen, thank you.

Regarding spiritual breathing...maybe you were quoting someone else and didn't notice that part of it..? It's in your post #676 on page 34 of this thread, here is the part near the end of your post that mentioned spiritual breathing...crossed my mind whether it might have something to do with kabbalah actually:

CAN ANYTHING KEEP US FROM HEARING GOD?
Wrong attitudes, resentment, or unconfessed sins can create distance in our relationship with God. When this happens, confession and repentance will bring us back into a close relationship where we can hear from God again. Spiritual breathing is an excellent practice that will help keep the lines of communication open.

Guess you have a "hotline" to the Father, bypassing the Christ and the Holy Spirit.
J."
 

Wrangler

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@Wrangler pretty please, with sugar on top… show out of the scripture where the scripture says that the scriptures where made an idol

It has already been shown to you multiple times - by me and @APAK.

To your way of thinking, Cain and Able is not a story of jealousy, wrath, ego and rage because Scripture does not use these words to describe the story.

To your way of thinking, the daughters who got their father drunk with wine to have sex with him is not a story of incest because Scripture does not use that word to describe the story.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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To your way of thinking, Cain and Able is not a story of jealousy, wrath, ego and rage because Scripture does not use these words to describe the story.

Is was about Wrath, the scripture DOES use that word (every thing else is your ASSUMPTION).

“But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?” (Genesis 4:5-6)

Your habit of adding to scripture has been exposed.

“…If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18)

You know, the “book” you speak negatively about…

Still no evidence of scripture idolatry I see…
 
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Lizbeth

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Welcome Liz from Canada, if French speaking, then mine is very rusty...bienvenue sur ce site CB et profitez-en..

Just a couple of things off your post. 1. the 'we' is the problem as times. There are generally two-sides of this serious and sometimes heated discussion. Both sides claim the 'we'
2. spiritual breathing, again like in the first point, both sides claim they are performing this act along with testing the spirits.

And both sides are saying they are not in violation of God's word or defaming his character.

The true test is to examine one's heart and do a self-check that we have faith through the HS FIRST, and not scripture per se, for genuine faith in the persons of the Father and his Son. Yes, we came to Christ via the written and spoken words of the gospel, although the written word of God is activated and vibrant only with the present of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit of the Father comes FIRST to unlock scripture and not the other way around!!

Enjoy and I hope all is well up North.

Merci beaucoup pour le bienvenue....mais je suis Anglaise. :) Things are not that great up North here these days unfortunately, in my opinion, nevertheless I try to encourage myself knowing the Lord is in control at all times.

Amen....coming to faith in Jesus is an act of God, of His Spirit. Things like this are not easy to parse or put into words....would it also be fair to say that Jesus is the Word made flesh and as we receive the engrafted word, we are receiving Him. Yes, by the Holy Spirit! There is no "life" without the Spirit.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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To your way of thinking, the daughters who got their father drunk with wine to have sex with him is not a story of incest because Scripture does not use that word to describe the story.

Seriously?!

How does this help your ludicrous case?

Show a scripture that DESCRIBES anyone in the Bible erecting a statue of scrolls, or erecting an high place for the sacred scrolls to be idolized and worshipped.

I’m getting tired of hearing crickets…
 

amigo de christo

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@Wrangler pretty please, with sugar on top… show out of the scripture where the scripture says that the scriptures where made an idol.

I have never seen a person have an altar with a Bible on an elevation bowing down to it and saying, Speak unto me thou great and mighty Bible.

Heck, I haven’t even seen so much as a statue of a Bible with no real pages in it where people gathered around to bow before it.

Such nonesense!
Yes indeed let us remember even GOD , HIS OWN words that he spoke . This is whom God accepts .
HE WHO TREMBLES at MY WORD . MY WORD . And yet folks are trying to do all to act as though us who love the holy scrips
Are somehow guilty of idolatry . YET HE WHO LOVETH the WORD and Words of GOD is what GOD has always desired .
These folks will do anything to try and steer us away from the foundational truth in that bible .
And guess what , LAMBS DONT BUY THEIR LIES . THY WORD O LORD is a lamp unto my feet ................exactly .
 

Wrangler

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Show a scripture that DESCRIBES anyone in the Bible erecting a statue of scrolls, or erecting an high place for the sacred scrolls to be idolized and worshipped.

You have a falsely limited concept of what idolatry means.

I want a BIBLE example!

Numerous examples have already been provided.
 

APAK

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Merci beaucoup pour le bienvenue....mais je suis Anglaise. :) Things are not that great up North here these days unfortunately, in my opinion, nevertheless I try to encourage myself knowing the Lord is in control at all times.

Amen....coming to faith in Jesus is an act of God, of His Spirit. Things like this are not easy to parse or put into words....would it also be fair to say that Jesus is the Word made flesh and as we receive the engrafted word, we are receiving Him. Yes, by the Holy Spirit! There is no "life" without the Spirit.
English speaker you are then...:)

There is certainty no life without the Holy Spirit. I thank you for getting back with me. I do hope you enjoy it here and it is edifying...Bless you and have a great week.:Canada:

//I've just noticed they have added more emojis to this site. I need to ask @Josho if he finally answered my request for more, since a couple of years ago....Like Fantastik Josho and the Staff....:hearteyes:
 
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APAK

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It has already been shown to you multiple times - by me and @APAK.

To your way of thinking, Cain and Able is not a story of jealousy, wrath, ego and rage because Scripture does not use these words to describe the story.

To your way of thinking, the daughters who got their father drunk with wine to have sex with him is not a story of incest because Scripture does not use that word to describe the story.
These are examples of benefitting the cause of scripture and for our own understanding as God wishes us to learn about him and his messages from his word. By adding into scripture clarity meaning, for understanding, and to understand the context more clearly. We have to form meanings to make scripture flow and come alive. Without doing this we can only view scripture as static lists of verses housed in Chapters and Books, to only use them and pull them out to prove that my verse says this or that, and then to close it up and wait for the next time it is needed to be shown. This is not having the Spirit guide us in scripture at all. This is not the living word of God at all!

There is no life using scripture this way. The Holy Spirit brings to light the environment, and where we can use verses to show contrasts and similarities in other placed of scripture, to form inferences and think more critically and that the killing of Able for example was a story of jealousy, selfishness, self-centeredness and even fear of reprisal, playing it safe, and we can see this in other verses of scripture. This is story of fallen man...
 
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MatthewG

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What is your definition of true faith?

Faith is Believing in hoping in the things that you can not see.

Such as having the Holy Spirit indwell us.
Talking to God who invisible, who is our Father who adopted us by the Holy Spirit.
Believing that our old man has passed away and our new man/women is a new creation in Christ.
Believing in the Lord Jesus whom we never have seen with our own eyes.
Having hope for God's desires to pan out at the end of the road.
Praying and believing that God is truly listening.
Hoping for one day after leaving this life serving God was a service done out of Love and not selfish ambition, in to having a given spiritual body from God to us when we are resurrected.
Hoping for one day to be in the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem with God when leaving this life.
 

Wrangler

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By adding into scripture clarity meaning, for understanding, and to understand the context more clearly. We have to form meanings to make scripture flow and come alive.

The NRSV Study note in The Gospel of John in ch 14 or 15 compared similar but NOT IDENTICAL wording of a story. The note explained how ancient hearers expected and appreciated paraphrase.

Today, many overly emphasize the importance of a literal translation. It is excessive precisely because the Bible is a highly figurative book.

One of the things I struggle with is classifying precisely what fallacy of argumentation is being employed. Often, multiple fallacies are invoked together. Similarly, what sin Cain is guilty of before committing murder is less important than recognizing he had a complex set of sinful thoughts that led to his sinful act.

The Bible is told in story format, not philosophical or theological treatise format. While we know the 10 Commandments and the 6 or 7 things God hates as a list, these are exceptions. It is up to us to draw the moral of the story. The Prodigal Son is an excellent example. The many sins of the Judge, Samson, is another.
 
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Wrangler

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Your examples are your private interpretations.

Not that nonsense again! We are communicating on a public forum. There’s nothing private about it.

Idolatry is put 2nd of the 10 Commandments. It is a very common sin, today and in ancient times - as Scripture details. Clearly, you prefer the narrowest possible interpretation of what this commandment prohibits. Bless your heart!

Let’s move on.
 

APAK

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The NRSV Study note in The Gospel of John in ch 14 or 15 compared similar but NOT IDENTICAL wording of a story. The note explained how ancient hearers expected and appreciated paraphrase.

Today, many overly emphasize the importance of a literal translation. It is excessive precisely because the Bible is a highly figurative book.

One of the things I struggle with is classifying precisely what fallacy of argumentation is being employed. Often, multiple fallacies are invoked together. Similarly, what sin Cain is guilty of before committing murder is less important than recognizing he had a complex set of sinful thoughts that led to his sinful act.

The Bible is told in story format, not philosophical or theological treatise format. While we know the 10 Commandments and the 6 or 7 things God hates as a list, these are exceptions. It is up to us to draw the moral of the story. The Prodigal Son is an excellent example. The many sins of the Judge, Samson, is another.
You got the gist of it. I really cannot add much more to it. I believe imo that if a human mind was able to learn everything from the HS in scripture, and that it was of the Father's will indeed, they could paint a mural on the wall of the complete plan of God for his Salvific Restoration of mankind, so clearly, and the trails of its major themes and sub-themes would weave through it ..the full picture of the grand message of love from God Almighty.
 
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