Israel, the Church, and the Rapture

[Truth7t7]

Do you see the rapture in Matthew 24:31?

Much love!

I See The Second Coming Last Day Resurrection, Same As 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-24

 

[Truth7t7]

This is not the topic. Again, please!

The 144,000 represent the (Remnant Elect) that will be sealed and added to the church present on earth during the tribulation

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, they will as a nation enter the wrath of God and When they see Jesus as their messiah they will repent: Read Zechariah 12:10-12

The Entire World Will See Jesus At The Second Coming, And Only Ethnic Jews Will Repent And Be Saved?

Romans 2:11KJV
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Truth7t7]

Israel and the church are NOT the same but both are God's people. Born again believers (the church) will be raptured (caught up) very soon but Israel and those left behind will go into the years of the great tribulation!

(Dual Covenant Theology) In Two Peoples Of God, Based Upon Racial Ethnic Heritage And National Status

 

[Enoch111]

A Pre-Trib Rapture Is Found No Place In Scripture, A Fabrication Of Man, Promoted By John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield

More foolish and hate-filled propaganda. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself established the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 which is also connected to 1 John 3:1-3. If others "discovered" it later, that is to their credit. But to call it a "fabrication of man" is to tread on thin ice. It is God who has given His saints "the Blessed Hope" of the Rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

More foolish and hate-filled propaganda. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself established the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 which is also connected to 1 John 3:1-3. If others "discovered" it later, that is to their credit. But to call it a "fabrication of man" is to tread on thin ice. It is God who has given His saints "the Blessed Hope" of the Rapture.

No hate whatsoever as you falsely claim, a pre-trib rapture isnt found in scripture a (Fact), it's the complete invention of man, namely John. N. Darby and C.I. Scofield

The blessed hope will take place at the second coming, last day resurrection

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

More foolish and hate-filled propaganda. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself established the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 which is also connected to 1 John 3:1-3. If others "discovered" it later, that is to their credit. But to call it a "fabrication of man" is to tread on thin ice. It is God who has given His saints "the Blessed Hope" of the Rapture.

Let's look at the part of the Bible where Christ does address His return in relation to the Tribulation:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matt. 24:29-31

At least 3 things are evident in this one passage:

1. Christ clearly mentions the gathering of the saints happening AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Christ clearly says the world will see Him return.
3. Christ clearly says the world will see His followers being gathered to Him. Nothing in there is mentioned about people mysteriously disappearing out of thin air.

Now what kind of tribulation is Christ speaking about here? The answer is in verses 21-22 of the same chapter:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

As anyone can see, Christ is clearly speaking of the Great Tribulation here. This event is also chronologically placed before His return. And before any Pre-Tribber or Mid-Tribber can argue that Christ was just giving general prophecies with no concrete timeline being established, Revelation places the timeline of everything He said concerning the end-time signs, His return, and even the gathering of the saints in the same exact order. The only biblical view the Bible teaches is Post-Trib. Anything else is a lie.

 

[marks]

I read some of these posts and I wonder, just how well do people understand the different rapture viewpoints? And the implications of each toward other doctrines? If these are the best arguments one can make, what does that say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So then you are saying that's not what he meant?

I myself caution against assuming Bible writers meant something other than what they wrote. When you assume that they meant one thing when they wrote something else, what happens when you carry that meaning somewhere else? Where does it end? And when you read the next verse, do you assume that they meant something else there also?

How can anyone have confidence in their interpretations that way?

Much love!

 

[marks]

a pre-trib rapture isnt found in scripture a (Fact),

Here's a fun fact for you . . . NO rapture timing whatsoever is plainly stated in Scripture.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just to answer this, I see the sealing of the 144K being the start of the regrafting of the natural branch onto the vine.

Just to let you know . . . I'm no longer trying to maintain topic in this thread, if you wanted to pursue this with whomever.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's look at the part of the Bible where Christ does address His return in relation to the Tribulation:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matt. 24:29-31

At least 3 things are evident in this one passage:

1. Christ clearly mentions the gathering of the saints happening AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Christ clearly says the world will see Him return.
3. Christ clearly says the world will see His followers being gathered to Him. Nothing in there is mentioned about people mysteriously disappearing out of thin air.

Now what kind of tribulation is Christ speaking about here? The answer is in verses 21-22 of the same chapter:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

As anyone can see, Christ is clearly speaking of the Great Tribulation here. This event is also chronologically placed before His return. And before any Pre-Tribber or Mid-Tribber can argue that Christ was just giving general prophecies with no concrete timeline being established, Revelation places the timeline of everything He said concerning the end-time signs, His return, and even the gathering of the saints in the same exact order. The only biblical view the Bible teaches is Post-Trib. Anything else is a lie.

I Agree 100%

As Preterism Falsely Claims ls That Matthew 24:29-31 Represents A Coming Judgement On Israel, And Not The Second Coming and Resurrection That Is Clearly Seen

 

[Truth7t7]

So then you are saying that's not what he meant?

I myself caution against assuming Bible writers meant something other than what they wrote. When you assume that they meant one thing when they wrote something else, what happens when you carry that meaning somewhere else? Where does it end? And when you read the next verse, do you assume that they meant something else there also?

How can anyone have confidence in their interpretations that way?

Much love!

James wrote to the church, those that had the faith of Jesus Christ, where there is neither Jew/Gentile, the twelve tribes scattered abroad

 

[Truth7t7]

Here's a fun fact for you . . . NO rapture timing whatsoever is plainly stated in Scripture.

Much love!

Of course the timing of the "Catching Up" is given, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 states it's at the second coming last day resurrection, Matthew 24:29-31 places this immediately after the tribulation

 

[marks]

last day

This is a test.

Which day (numerically) is the "last day"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

at the second coming last day resurrection

So you've noticed the similarities. Have you noticed the differences?

Much love!

 

[marks]

James wrote to the church, those that had the faith of Jesus Christ, where there is neither Jew/Gentile, the twelve tribes scattered abroad

You are using his address to define the church as Israel, by pointing to his addressing the 12 tribes. I'm suggesting that he may have actually been writing to those of the 12 tribes who were scattered abroad. Have you considered that?

It sounds like you think it can't be true what he wrote. I'm thinking we should conform our thoughts to Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

You are using his address to define the church as Israel, by pointing to his addressing the 12 tribes. I'm suggesting that he may have actually been writing to the 12 tribes. Have you considered that?

It sounds like you think it can't be true what he wrote. I'm thinking we should conform our thoughts to Scripture.

Much love!

Problem is, it appears you wont accept the clear scripture, the book of James was written to the church, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, of course many have a Pre-Determined prejudices to deny this fact

Below James is speaking to his brethren in the church, those that have the faith of Jesus Christ, with regards to respect of persons

Yes your very claim that his book pertains to ethnic Jews, is the very focal point of his teaching

James 2:1KJV
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

1 Samuel 15:23KJV
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[marks]

Yes your very claim that his book pertains to ethnic Jews, is the very focal point of his teaching

No . . . I assert that James addressed his letter to the 12 scattered tribes. Isn't that true?

Much love!

 

[marks]

of course many have a Pre-Determined prejudices to deny this fact

I'll leave this part to you.

Much love!