Living in Sin or just roommates who love each other?

[Ferris Bueller]

Do not let anyone judge you on what you eat or drink.

And how do you do that?
How do YOU not LET anyone judge you on what you eat or drink?
Beat them down with your theology as you arrogantly partake, or keep what you do a secret?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There can be no wrong. Hands down what you are concerned about is not biblical. Judging people by your own rules.
Most of the people that had wedding and vows in the biblical era were Pagans. That was their custom. Eventually the Jews and Christians adopted their customs. That is why there are so many Pagan rituals imbedded in Christian weddings.

The first documented Christian wedding occurred in the 9th century.
The Catholic Church made marriage a sacrament in the 12th century but still did not require a wedding or vows.
The Protestants made weddings and vows a requirement in the 16th century and the Catholic Church followed suite shortly after.
Church rules, that is fine, still not biblical so it is not a sin. But I support the Church's decision on wedding just not the judging.
So people that couple up are married without a wedding, just like they did in the biblical era. No wrong committed.

So, I see. There is no such thing as fornication in the church anymore, right?
Except if the 'committed' couple strays from their own devotion to each other, right?
Try telling that to a horny youth group.

That's a joke. You know that, right?

 

[Grailhunter]

And how do you do that?
How do YOU not LET anyone judge you on what you eat or drink?
Beat them down with your theology as you arrogantly partake, or keep what you do a secret?

Hey! I am with stupid! But I do not pay any attention to him. We live among the stupid.
Living for the approval of men is wrong on several levels.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hey! I am with stupid! But I do not pay any attention to him. We live among the stupid.
Living for the approval of men is wrong on several levels.

Don't tell me! Tell God. He's the one who wrote Romans 14.

And it's not about living for people's approval.
It's about not doing things that may embolden weaker people to indulge that which they otherwise, by conviction of conscience, won't indulge.
Just because you can drink alcohol with a clear conscience, or live with a woman and not have sex doesn't mean everyone else can do that. That's playing with fire for some people. And so God says don't be the one responsible for them harming their own conscience or getting hurt by having followed your example. YOU are sinning if you do that. Surely YOU sinning has to mean something to you in all this, right?

 

[Grailhunter]

So, I see. There is no such thing as fornication in the church anymore, right?

First off fornication...like the words Trinity and the phrase Original Sin are campaign slogans that are not in the Bible...coined by men to promote false beliefs.
The word fornication is not in the scriptures. It is from the Latin Vulgate and retro-fitted for the Bible to promote false beliefs.

Two unmarried people having sex, are married...no sin....as long as they stay together.

That was the way it was through the entire biblical era ....the union formed the marriage. Actually it is still that way because if you have a wedding and do not consummate the marriage you can get it annulled. The wedding is for show...legalities not the formation of the marriage.

It is debatable if the church's decision to require weddings and vows was religious or they wanted to control people's lives. That was definitely the reason for the civil laws that require public weddings and licenses.

 

[Grailhunter]

And it's not about living for people's approval.
It's about not doing things that may embolden weaker people to indulge that which they otherwise, by conviction of conscience, won't indulge.
Just because you can drink alcohol with a clear conscience, or live with a woman and not have sex doesn't mean everyone else can do that. That's playing with fire for some people. And so God says don't be the one responsible for them harming their own conscience or getting hurt by having followed your example. YOU are sinning if you do that. Surely YOU sinning has to mean something to you in all this, right?

This concern can drive you nuts....It encompasses so many weaknesses that you could not go out in public or talk to anyone and have live in a closet.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

First off fornication...like the words Trinity and the phrase Original Sin are campaign slogans that are not in the Bible...coined by men to promote false beliefs.

I believe the Greek word is 'porneia' (yes, I looked it up to see how to spell it, lol).

Try telling a horny youth group that 'porneia' does not exist. That there are no sexual sins because sexual sin is only defined by if you're married or not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This concern can drive you nuts....It encompasses so many weakness that you could not go out in public or talk to anyone and have live in a closet.

I agree.
Obviously, we restrain our appearances within reason.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe the Greek word is 'porneia' (yes, I looked it up to see how to spell it, lol).

Try telling a horny youth group that 'porneia' does not exist. That there are no sexual sins because sexual sin is only defined by if you're married or not.

And there is the rub... Making up theology to control people's actions. Bad practice because you end up losing creditability. Telling lies to control people is not the way to teach Christianity. Stop that! It will make you go blind! This desire to control does not work out. This type of thinking is what lead people to change the wording in the Bible to promote their own beliefs.

If you looked up porneia....then you know this....
The Greek word Pornia means prostitute. Which was not a negative term in the Greco-Roman culture. The Christian version of that porneia gets a little complicated.

If you noticed there was no wedding ceremony or vows in Eden. And then you can read the rest of the Bible and find no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows. Nor does the Bible state the correct way for a man and woman to meet and join in a union. You are inventing beliefs....welcome to the proud crowd. It was 1500 years after the biblical period that Christianity developed a requirement for weddings ceremonies and vows, and that is a fact.

Here is truth about the word Fornication.
First the translations of fornication from the Christian reference material...
noun
πορνεία
prostitution, whoring, harlotry, whoredom,
συνουσία
fornication, coition, intercourse, copulation

From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12
The worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Even the reference material gets it wrong.
This all involves translational errors and Christian reflection on later traditions that were retrofitted for 16th and 17th century translations of the Bible.

When the Greek text was translated into the Latin Vulgate, the Greek word porneia was translated to fornication. This is how the English word fornication arrived in the original Geneva and King James Version of the Bible. Part of the problem was that the New Testament was an attempt to write Christian moral standards using a Pagan language…ie Greek. But the Greeks did not have the same moral standards that Christians had. So the Christians writers were taking Greek words and adjusting the definitions of them, even coming up with new Greek words. Why? In the Greco-Roman culture sex was not considered immoral. It did not matter if it was temple prostitutes or orgies. Married Roman men were free to have sex with who they wanted…female or male. In the Roman culture adultery only pertained to wives. By Christian standards it was a disgusting arrangement. So Christian writers were tasked with conveying sexual morality from a culture that was without sexual morals and their language reflected the absence of words to describe sexual immorality. Now was all this confusing to the translators of the scriptures, it is a matter of debate.

Pornea in the Greek society mostly is a reference to prostitution which was not wrong in their culture. For example pornography, is an ancient Greek word that mean writings or paintings of prostitutes and many Roman homes had murals of sex acts and or prostitute on their walls.

But in the Bible the Greek word Pornea and its variances appear several times. In all cases the Christian writers were using it as some form of sexual immorality. By designation but not by definition....and that is where the confusion lies....the Bible never says that two unmarried people having sex is a sin....it couldn't because that is how people got married.
Examples:
πορνείας·… porneias … Sexual immorality
πορνείᾳ … porneiai … Sexual immorality in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … To commit sexual immorality involving sexual acts
πορνείαν … Idolatry involving sexual acts
πόρνος … A person that practices sexual immorality
πόρνοι … Refering to as a group of the sexually immoral
πορνεῖαι … inflectional, more or less dirty thoughts

Appearing in these scriptures
Matthew 5:32, 5:19, Mark 7:21, John 8:4, Acts 15:20, 5:29, 21:25, Romans 1:29* 1st Corinthians 5:1, 5:9, 5:10, 6:13, 6:18, 7:2, 10:8, 2nd Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1st Thessalonians 4:3, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, 2:14, 2:20, 2:21, 9:21, 14:8, 17:2, 17:4, 18:3, 18:19, 19:2

But in no case does it simply apply to two unmarried people having sex, for a very good reason. The New Testament does not have a lot to say about romantic love. But to say that Pornea, porneia is sex outside of wedlock would be inaccurate, since the Bible has no requirements for a wedding ceremonies or vows. Marriages were formed by the union and most of the time in early Christianity a lady’s father would choose who they would be married to, as was practiced in most Old Testament unions of marriages.

The evolution of the word Fornicate or Fornication
Fornicate comes from the Latin, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover…vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.

Of course then St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used the word fornication.

The first recorded use in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.

The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible. 16th and 17th centuries respectively.

So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if there was a Hebrew marriage celebration, there was no biblical requirement.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if there was a Hebrew marriage celebration, there was no biblical requirement.

I'm not disputing this. I'm actually in agreement with this. I understand this.

The problem is it is not this way in our society. So if you aren't legally married, you aren't married. We've understood that for decades.
Everybody automatically knows this. With the exception of the couple that comes along and decides that now is a good time to change what we automatically accept in our culture and so they don't get legally married, but call it a marriage anyway because that's how it is in other cultures. How convenient, lol. But as I said, it doesn't seem to keep them from being unfaithful to each other and divorcing.

 

[Grailhunter]

The problem is it is not this way in our society. So if you aren't legally married, you aren't married.

In our religious society....yes. Legally there is something called a common law wife.
It is the sin of judging out of ignorance that is the problem.
Deep topic because there is a social / religious belief....a hatred of sex....almost a separate religion. An infatuation of what other people are doing with their crouches! It is like dogs sniffing each other butts. What-cha doing with that crouch?

With the exception of the couple that comes along and decides that now is a good time to change what we automatically accept in our culture and so they don't get legally married, but call it a marriage anyway because that's how it is in other cultures. How convenient, lol.

It is never too late to know the truth. And the truth about sexual immorality....the Bible talks about carousing....the hunt for the one night stand. If you know the truth....you are looking for wife....better pick a good one! Because your next one night stand is adultery. It is like compound interest that sends you to hell. Sewing your wild oats! No its like setting yourself on fire!

But as I said, it doesn't seem to keep them from being unfaithful to each other and divorcing.

Another good topic....take a survey yourself....how many people over 50 that you know that have had a divorce, whether or not they are married now. From what I can tell the failure rate of Christian marriages is over 80 percent. Does the wedding and vows keep people together....it does not look like it......the emphasis should be on love and family.

 

[Rita]

I feel uncomfortable 'liking' this post....but you know what I mean, right?

You illustrate well the problem of narcissism in marriage.
I've learned that the inability to take responsibility for your behavior is the sure sign you're dealing with a narcissist. I mean, we all have narcissistic traits in some way or another. Born that way right from the beginning. But a clinical narcissist is marked by the fact that they will not take responsibility or be truly sorry for their behavior without blaming someone or something else. That is the one sure sign you are dealing with a narcissist, not just someone who has narcissistic traits common to mankind. The trait of serial adultery stems from the impulsivity of the narcissist. And from the narcissistic fantasy element of clinical narcissism.

Don’t feel uncomfortable, I know what you mean.
I have never really seen my ex as a narcissistic, never really thought about it before, but yes, he could have been.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

An infatuation of what other people are doing with their crouches! It is like dogs sniffing each other butts. What-cha doing with that crouch?

No, no, that's not it all!
I don't go to church because there are no churches in which there are devout Christians to whom you can relate spiritually. There is no fellowship with people living in sin. You should know this!

We've let the churches become polluted with this kind of nonsense you're pushing, all in the name of love. Well, that's a misguided love. One that has ruined the churches for us serious, devout Christians who want to live for him. My last church experience was my last church experience. I'm tired of 'fellowshipping' with weak and fake Christians who can't relate one iota to a relationship with God. There's no edification, there's no learning, there's no inspiration. They just look at you like you have a 3rd eye in your forehead, and criticize any and everything 'spiritual' that you say. Thank you, church, for flooding the church that was designed for real Christians to meet and build each other up with unbelievers that are supposedly going to get saved by hearing your sermons. The church does not exist for unbelievers. Stop being like them in the hope of drawing them to Christ. It doesn't work. It ends up pulling real believers down to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have never really seen my ex as a narcissistic, never really thought about it before, but yes, he could have been.

I guess it really doesn't matter now, but it sounds like he had the telltale mark of the clinical narcissist. And, surely, they're not beyond the saving power of God. It just helps to be a little educated about how they operate. Not just because of them but so we can be careful to not engage in narcissistic behavior and thinking ourselves.

I remember a good sermon by the pastor of Moody church (his name escapes me, lol) that said David had to endure the wickedness of Saul in order to make sure he didn't act like him when he became king. I've never forgotten that. Being victimized by other people's failures goes a long way to helping us to not be that way.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Another good topic....take a survey yourself....how many people over 50 that you know that have had a divorce, whether or not they are married now. From what I can tell the failure rate of Christian marriages is over 80 percent. Does the wedding and vows keep people together....it does not look like it......the emphasis should be on love and family.

How is doing away with legal marriage an answer to that? Isn't the real answer to commit to legal marriage?

 

[Grailhunter]

No, no, that's not it all!
I don't go to church because there are no churches in which there are devout Christians to whom you can relate spiritually. There is no fellowship with people living in sin. You should know this!

No I do not agree with this. I understand the concept of the church of ones. It is wrong thinking on several levels.
1. Certainly you understand that no apostle would preach that everyone should go off and start their own beliefs and singular church.
2. We are told to assemble and worship the Lord.
3. If you are a person of good biblical understanding....and you are.....you are denying service to Christ. Parable of the Talents.
4. You are denying people the benefit of your knowledge and character.
5. Fellowship and love one another.....can't do that by yourself.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is never too late to know the truth. And the truth about sexual immorality....the Bible talks about carousing....the hunt for the one night stand. If you know the truth....you are looking for wife....better pick a good one! Because your next one night stand is adultery. It is like compound interest that send you to hell.

I understand this well.
But like I said, try telling this to a horny youth group.
You can't tell them they're married to the person they've been secretly sleeping with and that it's okay just as long as they're the only one they're sleeping with.

You can't dismiss legal marriage from our society.

 

[Truth7t7]

Unless the person you're divorcing has already committed adultery and that's the reason you are divorcing.

Nothing in the bible allows for "remarriage while the spouse lives, nothing

Yes this remains silent from the pulpits, as the offering plates are filled

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No I do not agree with this. I understand the concept of the church of ones. It is wrong thinking on several levels.
1. Certainly you understand that no apostle would preach that everyone should go off and start their own beliefs and singular church.
2. We are told to assemble and worship the Lord.
3. If you are a person of good biblical understanding....and you are.....you are denying service to Christ. Parable of the Talents.
4. You are denying people the benefit of your knowledge and character.
5. Fellowship and love one another.....can't do that by yourself.

All good points, and under different circumstances they would rule the day, but this trumps them all...

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”c 1 Corinthians 5:9-12
​

The church is so weak and polluted today that I don't think there is any room left to hope that you can be an influence in the church. Those days are gone, IMO. When I got saved we were just on the trailing end of a beneficial distinction between Spirit-filled churches and not Spirit-filled churches. But now the Spirit-filled movement has caved irretrievably into the compromises with the world. There is no safe haven anymore for Spirit-filled Christians.

 

[Grailhunter]

How is doing away with legal marriage an answer to that? Isn't the real answer to commit to legal marriage?

Listen to the words that I am typing! LOL I support the Catholic Church making marriage a sacrament.
I support the Protestant churches making weddings and vows a requirement.
In my opinion, weddings are for churches. I do not like the justice of the peace thing.
I could be a wedding planner....I love weddings.

Put that is not the point.
My point is that we should not judge those that have relationships and are living together. Sure they may not make it, so get them in church and prey for them. But they may last longer than the people that are married in your church. People are social creatures that like acceptance....love on them, pray for them, after they are in church they may get married just to join the crowd.

Either way do not sin by judging them for doing something that is biblical.