Natural Theology of Mortal Souls

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face2face

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Fair enough: I will show by scripture that the promise prophesied to them is the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the resurrection of the dead. And that the righteous souls departed the body are now made perfect in heaven, waiting on the resurrection of their bodies.

For Abraham to enjoy the land the resurrection is implied - impossible otherwise!

Same as Job - all the faithful have the same hope it's just you who are out of step

Job 19:25 was key to Job's survival during this horrific trial in life. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth

"Stand" to obviously mean resurrected!

1. The promise made to the fathers, which began with Abraham was of the promised Seed, which is Christ, by whom we are born of God:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


I.e. the promise of the gospel of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, was made to them, but was not fulfilled in their time before His death, burial, and resurrection:

This is called cherry picking!

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessedGenesis 12:1-3

Promised land
Promised name
Promised nation
Promised blessings

All of which Hebrews 11 tells you has not been given.

All of these promises require Abraham to be raised and glorified and blessed.

....none of which has happened to date!

F2F
 

robert derrick

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Correct.

The Power of the Hope of the Resurrection is in the absolute nature of death. Which is why the Bible speaks of death for the faithful as a sleep.

Basically your theology removes the severity of death in favor of stealing God's immortal essence for reassurance sake.

I get the temptation but its not Bible based doctrine.

F2F
Jesus' words are all Scripture and true doctrine, which you are saying does not conform to your natural-based theology.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

But, at least you're honest about it.
 

face2face

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@robert derrick

Just to confirm with you Abraham is totally dead, buried and only in the mind of the Father:

In Abrahams own life he was never perfected in any way or did he receieve what was promised below:

However, as a consequence of this promise Abraham was content for the rest of his life to remain a stranger and a pilgrim in this promised land. He understood he would be perfected in nature along with all those who sleep in the dust of the ground with him by faith.

And the LORD said unto Abram,…lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever…Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto theeGenesis 13:14-18
 

face2face

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Jesus' words are all Scripture and true doctrine, which you are saying does not conform to your natural-based theology.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

But, at least you're honest about it.
Ah, I see your problem, you are applying a literal meaning to the Masters words in the same way Nicodemus interpreted being born again to me returning to his mums womb.

The faithful dont literally die because their lives are hid with Christ - wow I'm surprised you haven't pieced this together.

For you died (put the flesh to death daily), and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


By faith you have died robert but I guess that requires understanding and if you are a Bible Literalist you have no hope of understanding this Scripture.

All is lost for you.

F2F
 

robert derrick

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For Abraham to enjoy the land the resurrection is implied - impossible otherwise!

Same as Job - all the faithful have the same hope it's just you who are out of step

Job 19:25 was key to Job's survival during this horrific trial in life. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth

"Stand" to obviously mean resurrected!
As I said. You only think of the resurrection of the body, because you think your body is your soul.

And so, you don't receive the spiritual resurrection of the soul in this life, while remaining in the mortal body.

This is called cherry picking!

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessedGenesis 12:1-3

Promised land
Promised name
Promised nation
Promised blessings

All of which Hebrews 11 tells you has not been given.

All of these promises require Abraham to be raised and glorified and blessed.

....none of which has happened to date!

F2F
And all of this is of the resurrection of the dead bodies of the saints, which is for all, including them alive and remaining on earth at His second coming.

The promise Patriarchs and the prophets did not receive, but prophesied of, that we do now receive, is the promised Seed Christ and the gospel of His death, burial, and resurrection, whereby our souls are resurrected and made alive again by His Seed and Spirit.

And this is the promised seed Christ, that meant much more to Abraham and the fathers and prophets, than any amount of land on earth.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


You not only consistently reject this promise of resurrection life and power given us now, but so far you refuse to even acknowledge it.

Now that is a natural mindedness, that even the unbelievers don't attain to. They at least will acknowledge a teaching, even if they don't believe it.

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.


And so, you've given me a fair challenge here and there, and we've had plenty of back and forth, but the whole argument comes down to the born again nature of the soul being made alive that was dead, while still in mortal flesh.

The soul was dead in sins and trespasses, and is now born again and made alive by God, which is the whole promise of the Seed of Christ and the gospel of salvation and justification of God in this life.

The body was not dead, and is still not dead, until the soul departs, and the body goes to the grave.
 

robert derrick

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@robert derrick

Just to confirm with you Abraham is totally dead, buried and only in the mind of the Father:
A twist on parables and symbols only. The souls of the just are just sweet memories in the mind of God.

If you're going to start playing these games, then we are finishing up fast.

And so, at this point I don't need to hear any more of your theology. Unless you offer some new point about it, for me to consider.

Otherwise, I'll only take fair challenges to mine, as in your attempt of Heb 11, or you can begin responding the doctrine of resurrection and newness of life in the soul, while still in mortal flesh.

If you would like, you can respond to this:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Who and what is the 'you' that is dead in sins and trespasses?
 
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Angel Faith

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I find I have to ask this. With so many threads attacking Jehovah Witness Faith, why does this site permit JW's to join?
 

robert derrick

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Ah, I see your problem, you are applying a literal meaning to the Masters words in the same way Nicodemus interpreted being born again to me returning to his mums womb.
An new point. Thanks.

But once again, you insert your natural theology into Scripture and teaching of it, and try to say Jesus was 'symbolically' speaking of the flesh.

The soul literally dies to God by sinning, and the repented born again soul literally doesn't die by sinning anymore, so long as we remain faithful to His righteousness.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So long as His seed remains in us, and we abide in Him, our souls remain alive with Him yesterday, today and forever beyond the grave.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The faithful dont literally die because their lives are hid with Christ - wow I'm surprised you haven't pieced this together.

The bodies of the faithful, as all mortal bodies, literally die at the end of this life. Their souls literally don't ever again die in sins and trespasses, so long as they remain faithful to Him.

For you died (put the flesh to death daily), and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Now you are trying to insert a symbology of your own doctrine into Scripture.

The flesh never symbolically dies. The old life of sin literally gets put to death. There is no figurative death of the old life. The sinning is repented of, or it isn't.

We die daily, by enduring and overcoming temptation daily, and so not sinning with the flesh.


By faith you have died robert

True, we literally die to our old lives of sinning. We literally live in newness of life and righteousness of God.
 
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The body we crucify on the cross, is that body of our old life of sin.

Like the body of work and scholarship over a lifetime.
My point is we would be comfortable with a body that dies if that's all we ever had. We wouldn't know there was anything better if we had never had it before. That we even know what we got now isn't what we want, that we know there is better means it once was better.

You don't see bears having these problems. That's because a body that dies IS natural for bears. For humans a body that dies must be crucified right? Your beliefs deprive you of hope and many spiritual goods available to Christians.
 

robert derrick

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You don't see bears having these problems.

Animals don't have these problems, because animals don't have power to think about it, until it's happening, Then they have a problem.


For humans a body that dies must be crucified right?

No. The mortal body that dies, can die any number of ways.

The body that we crucify on our own cross, for Jesus' sake, is the old man and life of sinning.

We don't crucify our mortal bodies in suicide.

Your beliefs deprive you of hope and many spiritual goods available to Christians.
My beliefs? How so?
 
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Animals don't have these problems, because animals don't have power to think about it, until it's happening, Then they have a problem.
That' because their bodies are supposed to die. Their bodies serve the law of death. One of those laws is an instinct to survive it's not a problem for them like it is for us. It would be cruel to give the ability to know death for no reason.
No. The mortal body that dies, can die any number of ways.

The body that we crucify on our own cross, for Jesus' sake, is the old man and life of sinning.

We don't crucify our mortal bodies in suicide.
You missed my point. If we were supposed to die we wouldn't have a reason to crucify a body that dies.
My beliefs? How so?
Knowing the truth of our genesis story, more meaningful that our earthly life was not meant to end in death but a lifting up body and soul to eternal life. A deeper understanding of all things of faith, mysteries open up. Understanding the life of Jesus, ourselves, ...stuff like that
 

robert derrick

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My point is we would be comfortable with a body that dies if that's all we ever had. We wouldn't know there was anything better if we had never had it before. That we even know what we got now isn't what we want, that we know there is better means it once was better.

You don't see bears having these problems. That's because a body that dies IS natural for bears. For humans a body that dies must be crucified right? Your beliefs deprive you of hope and many spiritual goods available to Christians.
Let's revisit this, because I really wasn't understanding your point.

What you are saying is that man should never be 'comfortable' with the death of the body, because man's body was not first made that way.

This, to me, says that instead of seeing all life of flesh on earth is mortal, we should be thinking of some immortality of the body we somehow lost long ago.

It says further to me, that man should be mourning the past, rather than looking to the future.

1. Mortality of flesh and blood on earth is not due to sin, but due to being made that way by Christ. Mortality is not sinful in nature, nor is it sinful for any naturally made flesh and blood to die.

The death of the body is not the enemy, but the enemy is spiritual death of the soul for sinning.

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

2. Peter was more than comfortable with his upcoming decease:

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.


Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Peter's only care about the upcoming death of his body, was to ensure he had left behind sound doctrine to help them still in the world.

It's not the natural death of the mortal body that is the problem, but the death of the soul for sinning with the flesh.

Paul was even more clear about how comfortable he was with departing this life, because they had fought the good fight, and were more than ready to be with the Lord in heaven.

They did not look forward to the manner of the body's death, but that was nothing compared to the glory that awaited them. In fact, Paul was in a debate with himself about whether it was better to remain on earth in the flesh for the church's sake, or to go on home to heaven without the flesh for his own soul's sake.

3. The error that makes life in the flesh intolerable to a man, is that we should be mourning for something we never lost int he first place.

And the same error is that man sins, because of being born that way in the flesh.

Both are false: No physical body is ever made immortal, nor is the soul ever created sinful by Christ.

Every body of flesh is made by Christ mortal on earth, and every soul of man is created by Christ good and pure of heart in the lowest parts of the earth.

The truth of Scripture is that all flesh is made naturally mortal on earth, but only man is created in God's image with spiritual knowledge: with the power to choose good or evil.

Man living in natural flesh on earth, was always made a test for the souls of men to do good or evil, while in the flesh. The angels are tested in heaven with spiritual bodies.

Adam was the first man tested with the best surroundings and he failed, because he allowed the same lust into his heart, that Lucifer allowed in his: it had nothing to do with the natural body made from the dust of the earth, and it still doesn't. The surroundings of the world we are in now, is worse than it was with Adam, but it's the same as it was with the 2nd Adam, and He did not do as the first man, and transgress against the commandment of the Lord.

What makes death of the mortal body tolerable for the spiritual man, is that this life is only a test, not an endgame that starts as inborn losers.

Knowing that we are created spiritual beings to love and please God, while walking in naturally made flesh and blood, gives us power of the truth to acknowledge freely the natural death of all flesh and blood, so that we are much more careful to care for our souls: Therefore we are to put our minds to good use while still in the flesh, and mind the eternal things of the Spirit, rather than the mortal things of the earth below:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Conclusion: no man ever knew what it was like to have an immortal physical body, because there was not and never will be any such thing in heaven nor on earth.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

No flesh and blood could ever be immortal, because no flesh and blood could ever inherit the kingdom of God. The vain hope of somehow attaining to something we never lost, some immortality of physical bodies on earth, is vainly imagined by false teachings of men.

Those who believe the lie of becoming mortal in flesh by the sin of some fool thousands of years ago, and so are also born captive to his sinful will, are those trapped in a delusional mourning over what was lost to them, before they were ever even born into the world.

I can freely say I care absolutely nothing for some man and woman called Adam and Eve, that threw away the best chance any man and woman ever had to live a long and happy and blessed life with the Lord God Himself personally raising them up for His good pleasure.

I say good riddance to bad rubbish. Adam is not my father, neither in the flesh nor in the spirit. At best, he's my father in law pertaining to the flesh only. Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything he did, but only with what Christ did, when making mortal man's body from dust of the earth.

The liberty of the truth, is that we are all created good souls with pure hearts by Christ in the lower tparts of the earth, and lightened with His true light coming into the world to please God, not to serve the devil, as though he now makes us in his own sinful image.

Being born of again of Christ is exactly that: becoming newborn babes as though fresh from the womb, with regenerated and renewed cleanness of soul, purity of heart, and the mind of Christ.

We don't sit around mourning what we never lost, but rather believe the gospel for what we were first created to attain to: perfection of spirit and mind in heaven, with immortal resurrected spiritual bodies: Just like we see Jesus in Revelation 1.
 
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d
What you are saying is that man should never be 'comfortable' with the death of the body, because man's body was not first made that way.
No, Im not saying we should or shouldn't be comfortable in a body that dies. I'm saying it's a fact whether we like it or not. That tact is evident. Man is not comfortable with death. Death has always been a disturbing problem for all peoples. t's a question that all religions attempt to resolve. To offer some comfort. Jesus conquered death to to resolve the problem. Can't beat that.
This, to me, says that instead of seeing all life of flesh on earth is mortal, we should be thinking of some immortality of the body we somehow lost long ago.
Right!
Spirits are not subject to death. A spirit can't be divided into parts or change nature. The human spirit which by nature is not subject to death, animates a mortal human body but can animate it indefinitely.
We broke our friendship with the giver of life and so we inherited death. Our spirit could no longer animate a mortal body indefinitely. Death is the parting of body and soul. The body returns to dust. The spirit enters a disembodied state with every other human spirit of every person ever born.
The death of the body is not the enemy, but the enemy is spiritual death of the soul for sinning.
Paul would disagree. The body serves the law of death. It obstructs our will to serve God. The will is not of the flesh. The other animals do not have free will for that reason. The body is the source of conflict within us. Paul teaches the body;is an enemy we must bring into subjection and make it a sacrificial offering like an animal. If the body is not our enemy we would not need to crucify it so as to unite it to Christ's body. Jesus' wasn't crucified by friends was He?

Spirits by nature are not subject to death.

I suggest another look at Romans 8 for Paul's teaching about this.
 
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face2face

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An new point. Thanks.

But once again, you insert your natural theology into Scripture and teaching of it, and try to say Jesus was 'symbolically' speaking of the flesh.

The soul literally dies to God by sinning, and the repented born again soul literally doesn't die by sinning anymore, so long as we remain faithful to His righteousness.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So long as His seed remains in us, and we abide in Him, our souls remain alive with Him yesterday, today and forever beyond the grave.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.



The bodies of the faithful, as all mortal bodies, literally die at the end of this life. Their souls literally don't ever again die in sins and trespasses, so long as they remain faithful to Him.



Now you are trying to insert a symbology of your own doctrine into Scripture.

The flesh never symbolically dies. The old life of sin literally gets put to death. There is no figurative death of the old life. The sinning is repented of, or it isn't.

We die daily, by enduring and overcoming temptation daily, and so not sinning with the flesh.




True, we literally die to our old lives of sinning. We literally live in newness of life and righteousness of God.
Have you ever heard of the term faith? I know you believe in literally never dying but faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things unseen. The basis of salvation is to believe in an invisible God. Can you take me back to the OT times to show me those faithful who expressed their immortal souls lived on after death?

F2F
 

face2face

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It just dawned on me for those who do believe in the immortal soul how do you view your sacrifice for sin if Jesus didn't die?

Hebrews 10
It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

If the natural body contains something immortal how could Jesus say he died when clearly he didn't?

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Rev 1:18

Even if you explain away his mortal corpse being dead in real terms you also believe he didn't die like those sacrifices under the Law.

If also means the body God prepared as a sacrifice was simply a show and wasn't actually the cessation of a life.

Wow, it just hit me; when Jesus states I was dead you would have to say to him "no you weren't" :eek:

That's crazy!

@robert derrick you should have a degree of fear holding to that teaching!
 

face2face

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And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Who and what is the 'you' that is dead in sins and trespasses?
So this is basic Gospel teaching that baptism is a symbol not only of a death but also a birth as per Romans 6:13 and John 3:3-5 God forgives us our all sins Acts 2:38

Did you miss the previous verse robert?

Colossians 2:12, when you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

How can you believe in a literal death and resurrection while a person is still alive?

Through "faith" robert

You seem to be coming up against the same issue over and over - you can see this right?

Colossians 2:13 is speaking in the context of removing the Law (ordinances) out of the way so gentiles by faith can be saved. Salvation is not instantaneous - its a process that ends in death (asleep in Christ) only to be raised literally in the same manner Christ was.

You don't believe you are transported back in time and literally buried with Christ some 2000 odd years ago?
And surely you dont believe you are taken back to his literal resurrection?

You're starting to concern me robert.

F2F
 

Jack

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Show me in the Bible a disembodied immortal essence which has awareness of its existence.
I mean, if you truly believe this to be true show me. The Bible should be littered with examples yeah? If every person is said to have this immortality then you should have no problem in proving its existence.
Otherwise, cease from teaching it!
F2F
Luke 16 The rich man died and was very much alive and tormented in the fire!
 

Jack

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It just dawned on me for those who do believe in the immortal soul how do you view your sacrifice for sin if Jesus didn't die?

Hebrews 10
It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

If the natural body contains something immortal how could Jesus say he died when clearly he didn't?

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Rev 1:18

Even if you explain away his mortal corpse being dead in real terms you also believe he didn't die like those sacrifices under the Law.

If also means the body God prepared as a sacrifice was simply a show and wasn't actually the cessation of a life.

Wow, it just hit me; when Jesus states I was dead you would have to say to him "no you weren't" :eek:

That's crazy!

@robert derrick you should have a degree of fear holding to that teaching!
When Jesus died He was still very much alive.
 

robert derrick

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I do appreciate your plain spokenness and clarity. However, It looks like we are going to be disagreeing; however, rather than continue in arguments of our own, I will endaevor to just supply Scripture for rebuttal.

If you would like to show a different reading of them, then I'd be glad to see it.

No, Im not saying we should or shouldn't be comfortable in a body that dies. I'm saying it's a fact whether we like it or not. That tact is evident. Man is not comfortable with death. Death has always been a disturbing problem for all peoples. t's a question that all religions attempt to resolve. To offer some comfort. Jesus conquered death to to resolve the problem. Can't beat that.

Our main difference is between spiritual life and death by doing righteousness or sinning, and physical death by natural mortality.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

It's our soul, the inner man of the heart, that sins against God with the flesh. And so the soul is judged for sinning and dies spiritually by sinning, not the flesh.


We broke our friendship with the giver of life and so we inherited death. Our spirit could no longer animate a mortal body indefinitely.

No angel nor man was ever created gods, nor to become gods, with power of life in our own right. The promise of being as gods, with our own knowledge of good and evil, first failed with Lucifer, then other angels following his lie, and then all men that sin against God.

The spirit enters a disembodied state with every other human spirit of every person ever born.

Then the man Christ Jesus is not sitting on the throne of God.

The body is the source of conflict within us.

Scripture says otherwise:

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Our fight is plainly not with the flesh, but with spiritual temptation of the heart to sin with the flesh.

The body is the source of conflict within us.

Then Adam's 'perfect immortal' body was the problem

And Lucifer's spiritual body the source of his sin.

Scripture says otherwise:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Lust and will to sin against God is a spiritual heart problem, that originates in the soul, not in the body, whether spiritual or natural.


Spirits by nature are not subject to death.

I suggest another look at Romans 8 for Paul's teaching about this.

This is where we have limited agreement.

The angels and men are created immortal spiritual beings in the image of Christ.

However, once again the spiritual death by sinning, is separation from God, not a ceasing of immortality.

Our main difference is:

The spiritual death of the soul by sin, which is not the mortal death of natural bodies: when the body dies, the soul either is in the presence of the Lord for ever, or wakes up away from Christ in torment and shame for ever.

The heart and soul of man is the source of lust for sinning, not natural flesh and blood: our war is not with our mortal body, but is spiritually fought with temptations to sin with the flesh.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



I suggest another look at Romans 8 for Paul's teaching about this.

If you would make difference between spirit and flesh, and the life and death thereof, your teaching would be more perfect.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The soul sins with the flesh and dies by sinning. The flesh is used to sin by the soul, and only dies by natural mortality.

Men are either living or dead souls walking in mortal flesh.
 

face2face

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When Jesus died He was still very much alive.
Read that again J.
Many Christians are starting to see the doctrinal issues your understanding presents when looking at the atonement.
Do you understand what I mean by the atonement?