no O.T.=====no heaven??

[brodav9]

Some say O.T. done away because of this passage. 2Cor. 3:14 If the O.T. done away wouldn't they be saying that there is no new heaven and earth. Isa. 65:17 tells us of this future event that has not occured yet.

In 2Cor. 3:7 we see that it is saying death is glorious. see what I mean if we try to read in what it is saying as to be something else. then v.11 that which is glorious is done away. we could wrongly see that there is no more death, or that death is glorious and done away.

v.9 just like love in 1Cor. 13: Spirit and righteousness excell and dominate. In 2Cor. 3: Spirit and righteous are most important. in 1Cor. 13: love is most important.

In 2Cor. 3: a thing which is glorious is done away. That is so a better thing can be more glorious. Spirit and righteousness instead of death.

In 1Cor. 13: if we hold on to v. 1-3 we see that love is the most important. Nothing is saying anything is done away with, only that the tongues, prophesy, knowledge, giving. How could anyone say giving or knowledge ceased. A preacher won't say that because they have to preach their knowledge and expect money to come in to support them.

It is obvious that cease and fail and vanish, are the idea that these cannot stand up to love. God is love and without him all these are the fleah.

false prophesy, false tongues, false knowledge definately shall not be anything, but all thes without love are counted as nothing

faith and hope are lesser, not done away just because they are lesser. love --charity is greater.

Some even say that prophesy is really preaching. If that be the case has preaching ceased or failed.

1Cor. 13:1 notice tongues of men and angels. tongues of men is speaking in other lanquages.
of angels is mysteries and supernatural.

My experience of men was when speaking the gospel to a man in Arabic.. I knew none but he knew English also and said I know what you are saying while he was crying.
My of angels, one was mysteries, In the interpretation God showed me that as Eve came from Adam's side, The church Jesus bride came from his side. Bought by the blood.
My of angels, a fellow I knew was on the way to commit suicide, after prayer for him a few minutes and he knocks on the door. He said I was going to drive in the river but God spoke to me and said don't do it go see---me by name. tongues saves lives.

My prayer is that Jesus will open your eyes to see that which is really being said in 1Cor. 13: see how v. 1-3 spell out the rest. also the rest is not as great but only in part in comparison to love, they are great though

 

[dragonfly]

we could wrongly see that there is no more death

Spiritually speaking there is no more death to those who have trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation from the wrath to come.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Spiritually speaking there is no more death to those who have trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation from the wrath to come.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

While this may be true on an individual basis to one who has passed from death unto life, one can see that it is NOT true in a practical sense, neither physically nor spiritually, for the populace as a whole. Frankly, people still die, both physically, and, when they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of this age, spiritually! Death has not yet been ultimately defeated as it is prophesied in both 1 Cor. 15:20-28 and in Revelation 20:7-21:8.

So, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[dragonfly]

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is the gospel, if not that Jesus Christ overcame sin and death on the cross? What is 'the hope' without knowing we have entered into Christ's death already, and one day with experience resurrection to life - through HIm?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

one can see that it is NOT true in a practical sense, neither physically nor spiritually, for the populace as a whole. Frankly, people still die, both physically, and, when they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of this age, spiritually!

I'm not completely clear what your point is, except a statement of the obvious.

Surely it would be true in the populace as a whole, if they had believed on Jesus Christ for their salvation from the wrath to come? For those who never believe, of course they have not passed from death to life. The gospel is always and only to individuals, from whichever people group they come.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then
shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave,
where [is] thy victory? 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which
giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
What is the gospel, if not that Jesus Christ overcame sin and death on the cross? What is 'the hope' without knowing we have
entered into Christ's death already, and one day will experience resurrection to life - through HIm?

Well, the gospel of Yeshua` the Messiah is that same gospel of the Kingdom or good tidings about the Kingdom that has been heralded
since Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) wrote it down:

Isa. 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good
tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (Hebrew: y'shuw`aah = rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall
bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed
Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation
(Hebrew: y'shuw`at = rescue; deliverance) of our God.
KJV

It's the same gospel of the Kingdom that was ALREADY UNDERSTOOD as early in Yeshua`s "ministry" as Mark 1:14-15!

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

THAT was Yeshua`s good news!

Now, as far as Him "overcoming sin and death on the cross," the Messiah has not freed us from sin or death, yet. HOWEVER, He has
freed us from the LAW of sin and death:

Romans 8:1-11
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit
of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

This HAS to be a future thing because you weren't around yet when this was written, and you already KNOW that subconsciously! It's
not something that happens immediately at a person's justification by God - the new birth! It will happen when Yeshua` LITERALLY
and PHYSICALLY raises our weak, mortal bodies and transforms them into immortal, powerful bodies incorruptible and full of life!

He "giveth us the victory," but that doesn't mean that He gives us the immortal bodies right away! That just means that it is a
"done deal!" It's secure! It's assured! It's locked in!

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and]
everlasting contempt.
I'm not completely clear what your point is, except a statement of the obvious.
Surely it would be true in the populace as a whole, if they had believed on Jesus Christ for their salvation from the wrath to
come? For those who never believe, of course they have not passed from death to life. The gospel is always and only to
individuals, from whichever people group they come.

First, Dani'el is seeing through a prophet's eyes, and they often saw things that would happen as though they would occur back-to-
back when they were actually separated by many years. As Douglas Connelly wrote in his book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads: A User-Friendly Look at the End Times (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002) on pp. 32-33:

The predictions about the Messiah were so different that some Jewish people in the first century thought there would be two Messiahs--one humble and sin-bearing, the second majestic and earth-conquering. The solution was not in two Messiahs, but in two appearances of the same Messiah. The Old Testament prophets didn't realize that there would be two separate times when the Messiah would come to earth. They expected just one event.

It's like looking at a photograph of a high mountain range like the Rockies or the Himalayas. Two mountain peaks may look like they're right next to each other or even part of the same mountain. When you get to the top, however, or fly over in an airplane, you reaplize that what looked like one peak was really two peaks separated by a long valley. As the Old Testament prophets looked ahead to the Messiah, they saw his glory and his humility displayed in one appearance. When Jesus came, however, we saw only the humble teacher, the gentle shepherd, the healer, the sin-bearer, Jesus' promise (and this cleared up the mystery) was that he would come again a second time, and this second appearance would be in awesome power.

When Jesus was on trial in front of the Jewish authorities, the high priest challenged Jesus with these words: "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of God." Jesus' reply rocked these men's hearts: "Yes, it is as you say.... But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:63-64, emphasis added).

Jesus didn't look like the Messiah as he stood there in his carpenter's clothes, under arrest, betrayed by Judas, abandoned by his disciples. Even though all these circumstances were predicted of the Messiah in the Old Testament, these Jewish leaders were looking for a king. Jesus made it clear that the "King" part would take place "in the future." Jesus even quoted an Old Testament prediction about the Messiah (he took his words from Daniel 7:13) so these Jewish scholars wouldn't miss the point. When the members of the Council heard Jesus' words, however, they went crazy, tearing their clothes and smacking Jesus around. They never entertained the possibility that Jesus' words were true.

I would submit to you that Dani'el 12:2 is also one of these prophecies understood by the "two peaks of the mountain" analogy. Both WILL happen, but not at the SAME TIME!

I know that sometimes Yeshua`s own words are brought up, as well:

John 5:25-29
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

However, Yeshua` was NOT saying that these two events will happen at the SAME TIME! He was only saying that HE would be the source of BOTH resurrections! In fact, verse 25 suggests that there shall be at least one occasion when not everyone who is dead will hear His voice!

I hope this helps to clear up some of these points.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your take on scripture. I liked your 'two peaks' analogy.

You seem to be putting an undue emphasis on the time we will physcially experience everything, as if there is no deliverance until that time? If you are I would most definitely beg to differ on that point.

Jesus said we have 'passed from death to life'. He was talking spiritually, of course, because sin is spiritual, and His death did not reverse our expectation of physical death before being resurrected from our earthly graves. But this doesn't prevent us from experiencing a spiritual resurrection as a consequence of dying with Him spiritually.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

You seem to be saying that we cannot be free from sin, because we still must pass through physical death. And yet you have quoted that 'the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made [past tense] me free from the law of sin and death'. I have to wait until I've died physically to be made free? Is this what you believe?

This is not my experience, anyway. And I don't think it was Paul's either, when he wrote to the Galatians, 'Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh'. This ties in with Romans 8:11, too. Yes, it's a verse about resurrection, but we don't have to wait until then to experience a measure of the quickening power of the Spirit in our bodies.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Isn't this something about a personal relationship with Him now, which will be even better, then?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.

Yes and no. When Yeshua` said we have "passed from death unto life" in John 5:24, He was saying that it's a "done deal." Our fates are sealed in Him, and we SHALL experience eternal life. Eternal death is escaped. HOWEVER, you and I will never be truly free from the law of sin and death while we are in these mortal bodies. Death is in every cell of our bodies! And, if nothing changes, in time we will die because our bodies cannot endure forever under the curse. It is appointed unto man once to die.

HOWEVER, it is NOT death that frees us; it is the RESURRECTION that frees us! And, if our bodies haven't succumbed to death before He returns, we can avoid death entirely as He TRANSFORMS our bodies into powerful, immortal, indestructible, incorruptible bodies!

By the way, the "law of sin and death" is a simple law best seen in Romans 6:23a:

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV

The paycheck for sin is death. If sin is committed, death is the consequence, and death must come to satisfy that sin. Fortunately, Yeshua` broke the hold of that law by dying the death without having the sin. Thus, HIS death can cover OUR sins! It's called "reconciliation" in the KJV of 2 Corinthians 5:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

The Greek word translated "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" are forms of "katallassoo" the verb and "katallagee" the noun:

NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
KJV - reconcile.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, that is best seen in verse 21: Yeshua` became our sin for us, in spite of the righteousness of God in Him, so that we could become His righteousness, in spite of our sin! THAT is the "exchange!" We "mutually changed" places with Him so that His death would cover our sin and so that we could have His eternal life! It certainly was not a fair exchange, but it WAS just! And the justice God provided vindicated His justification of us. Now, He could declare us "righteous" in spite of our sin, but His Son had to pay the price for doing so. He was declared "sin" in spite of God's righteousness in Him, and God the Father poured out His wrath on His Son! the wrath that SHOULD have been poured out on us otherwise!

That's why and how Yesha`yahu's prophecy was fulfilled:

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (the Messiah Yeshua`); he (the LORD) hath put him (the Messiah Yeshua`) to grief: when thou (you singular) shalt make his (the Messiah Yeshua`s) soul an offering for sin, he (the LORD) shall see his (the Messiah Yeshua`s) seed, he (the LORD) shall prolong his (the Messiah Yeshua`s) days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his (the Messiah Yeshua`s) hand.
11 He (the LORD) shall see of the travail (struggle) of his (the Messiah Yeshua`s) soul (breather), and shall be satisfied: by his (the LORD'S) knowledge shall my righteous servant (the Messiah Yeshua`) justify many; for he (the Messiah Yeshua`) shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

So, yes, the transformation of us into new creatures (creations), making it possible for YHWH'S Ruach Qodesh (Holy Spirit) to dwell in us and with us is a wonderful "down payment," but the FULL PAYMENT of the RESURRECTION will be FAR better! We won't discard our bodies or leave them behind to "go to heaven." We were never told to anticipate "going to heaven!" We were told to expect and anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES as NEW, HEALTHY, POWERFUL, IMMORTAL, INDESTRUCTIBLE, INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES!! (1 Corinthians 15:35-57)

1 Cor 15:35-57
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Now, I'm going to sound like I'm angry at you, but I know that you mean well and most people have never really studied it out and just learn to "go with the flow." So, I'm not really mad at you or anyone. I'm just spouting out my frustration: I REALLY HATE THE WORD "SPIRITUAL!" It Is SO misunderstood and misused that it really borders on an ABNORMAL USAGE, shortened to the word ABUSE! It confuses people and messes with their minds! It's just not used right!

Shabbat shalom, again, dragonfly.

Continuing on...

The word "spiritual" is really abused. It is so misused that it has changed its meaning drastically from when it was used to translate the words from the original languages.

Let's start with the Greek: The Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma," and the Greek word for "soul" is "psuchee." (Once again, remember that I use an "e" to transliterate the Greek letter epsilon and an "ee" for the Greek letter eta or eeta. The "e" says "eh" as in "bed" and the "ee" says "ay" as in "day.") Each of these words has an adjective form "pneumatikos" and "psuchikos," respectively. The Greek word for "body" is "sooma." (Remember that I use an "o" to transliterate the Greek letter omicron and an "oo" for the Greek letter omega or oomega. The "o" says "ah" as in "hot" and the "oo" says "oh" as in "no.") It, too, has its adjective form, "soomatikos." Here they all are in the Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance:

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

NT:4152 pneumatikos (pnyoo-mat-ik-os'); from NT:4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:
KJV - spiritual. Compare NT:5591.

NT:4983 sooma (so'-mah); from NT:4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:
KJV - bodily, body, slave.

NT:4984 soomatikos (so-mat-ee-kos'); from NT:4983; corporeal or physical:
KJV - bodily.

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you.

NT:5591 psuchikos (psoo-khee-kos'); from NT:5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from NT:4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from NT:5446, which is the lower or bestial nature):
KJV - natural, sensual.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now, let's talk about the origins of these words and their etymologies: The adjectives (and the adverbs) come from the nouns, but the nouns usually come from verbs. Let's also see what Strong said of the verbs:

NT:4154 pneoo (pneh'-o); a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
KJV - blow. Compare NT:5594.

NT:4982 soozoo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):
KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The "-oo" basic form is not really the infinitive form but is rather the first-person, singular ending and therefore translates to "I ...." So these words, respectively, mean "I breathe hard" or "I blow"; "I save" or "I deliver" or "I protect"; and "I breathe gently" or "I chill" or "I cool."

If we go back to Genesis 2:7, we will see the creation of the "soul" of the man:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (the sooma), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (the pneuma); and man became a living soul (the psuchee).
KJV

Literally, it means ...

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed the body of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living breather.
KJV

So, the breather, the breathing body, is a combination of the body and the breath of life! Since these words were then translated as soul, body, and spirit, then we can also conclude that the "soul" is a combination of the "body" and the "spirit." And, I submit to you that anything more than this in our system of theology is derived from the imagination of men and not from the Scriptures.

This handles a couple of the comparisons in 1 Corinthians 15, but there are many more! 1 Corinthians 15 is a study in contrasts! Here's a list of them:
celestial/terrestrial
sown/raised
dishonor/glory
weakness/power
natural body/"spiritual" body
first man Adam/last Adam
living soul/quickening spirit
earthy/heavenly
corruption/incorruption
we shall sleep/we shall be changed
corruptible/incorruption
mortal/immortality
death/victory.

Here's the same list in the Greek (transliterated);
epourania/epigeia
speiretai/egeiretai
atimia/doxa
astheneia/dunamei
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon
prootos anthroopos Adam/eschatos Adam
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun
ek gees/ex ouranou
cho-ikos/epouranios
fthora/aftharsian
koimeetheesometha/allageesometha
ftharton/aftharsian
thneeton/athanasian
thanatos/nikos.

Thus, another couple of words we need to discuss are the words translated "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," and "heavenlies." The main word is ouranos:

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The genitive form of the word drops the sigma (stigma) at the end of the word and adds an upsilon, making it "-ou" instead of "-os." To make it the adjective form, add an iota before the nominative ending, "-ios." Therefore, the adjective form is "ouranios." This is translated "heavenly."

The primary meaning of the word "ouranos," as seen above, is "the sky." If the prefix "epi-," meaning "above, over, upon," is added (dropping the iota before a vowel), the word becomes "epouranos," meaning "above the sky." Again, the adjective form adds the iota, and one gets another word in the Scriptures translated as "heavenly," "epouranios." However, this word is much different than "ouranios!" "Ouranios" means "of or related to the sky." "Epouranios" means "of or related to ABOVE the sky." We would say this second word means "of or related to outer space," and we'd be right because another word that is used for translation is "celestial," as in the above list. This is the SAME WORD used in verse 40 referring to the sun, moon, and stars in verse 41!

So, let's now give the contrasting words a more direct, literal translation:
of or related to above the sky/above or related to above the earth
shall-be-sown/planted/shall-be-harvested
infamy/fame
weakness/power
breathing body/blasting or blowing body
first man Adam/last Adam
living breather/life-giving blaster or blower
out of the earth/out of the sky
dusty or dirty/of or related to above the sky
decaying/incapable of decaying
we shall be asleep/we shall be transformed
decaying/indestructible
mortal/immortality
death/victory.

This is what we should understand from 1 Corinthians 15! The bodies with which we will be resurrected won't be "nonphysical" (which is one popular definition of "spiritual"), "other worldly," or "immaterial"; they will be physical bodies that will be FAMOUS, POWERFUL, BLASTING (as opposed to simply breathing), INCAPABLE OF DECAY, TRANSFORMED, INDESTRUCTIBLE, IMMORTAL, AND VICTORIOUS, shining like the stars! THIS is what we've been given to anticipate! That's why I HATE that word "spiritual," which is often thought of as "nonphysical, other worldly, in another dimension of reality, or immaterial!" That's NOT how it was used in the Scriptures!

 

[bytheway]

Some say O.T. done away because of this passage. 2Cor. 3:14 If the O.T. done away wouldn't they be saying that there is no new heaven and earth. Isa. 65:17 tells us of this future event that has not occured yet.

In 2Cor. 3:7 we see that it is saying death is glorious. see what I mean if we try to read in what it is saying as to be something else. then v.11 that which is glorious is done away. we could wrongly see that there is no more death, or that death is glorious and done away.

v.9 just like love in 1Cor. 13: Spirit and righteousness excell and dominate. In 2Cor. 3: Spirit and righteous are most important. in 1Cor. 13: love is most important.

In 2Cor. 3: a thing which is glorious is done away. That is so a better thing can be more glorious. Spirit and righteousness instead of death.

In 1Cor. 13: if we hold on to v. 1-3 we see that love is the most important. Nothing is saying anything is done away with, only that the tongues, prophesy, knowledge, giving. How could anyone say giving or knowledge ceased. A preacher won't say that because they have to preach their knowledge and expect money to come in to support them.

It is obvious that cease and fail and vanish, are the idea that these cannot stand up to love. God is love and without him all these are the fleah.

false prophesy, false tongues, false knowledge definately shall not be anything, but all thes without love are counted as nothing

faith and hope are lesser, not done away just because they are lesser. love --charity is greater.

Some even say that prophesy is really preaching. If that be the case has preaching ceased or failed.

1Cor. 13:1 notice tongues of men and angels. tongues of men is speaking in other lanquages.
of angels is mysteries and supernatural.

My experience of men was when speaking the gospel to a man in Arabic.. I knew none but he knew English also and said I know what you are saying while he was crying.
My of angels, one was mysteries, In the interpretation God showed me that as Eve came from Adam's side, The church Jesus bride came from his side. Bought by the blood.
My of angels, a fellow I knew was on the way to commit suicide, after prayer for him a few minutes and he knocks on the door. He said I was going to drive in the river but God spoke to me and said don't do it go see---me by name. tongues saves lives.

My prayer is that Jesus will open your eyes to see that which is really being said in 1Cor. 13: see how v. 1-3 spell out the rest. also the rest is not as great but only in part in comparison to love, they are great though

When I accepted Christ I was told to start by reading John. It looked like quantum physics to me.That's because I hadn't learned the simple math of the o.t., types, shadows and patterns. As the preachers of the past put it, in the o.t. is the n.t. concealed, in the n.t. is the o.t. revealed. It's all one book.

 

[dragonfly]

Shalom, Retrobyter,

I suppose I don't find it helpful to focus on the part of my being which is perishing, namely, the flesh.

HOWEVER, you and I will never be truly free from the law of sin and death while we are in these mortal bodies. Death is in every cell of our bodies! And, if nothing changes, in time we will die because our bodies cannot endure forever under the curse. It is appointed unto man once to die.

The problem with stating absolutely that 'I will never be truly free from the law of sin and death', is, it's not what the apostle wrote in Romans 8, is it? He was also talking about now. And he wasn't offering a theory.

HOWEVER, it is NOT death that frees us; it is the RESURRECTION that frees us! And, if our bodies haven't succumbed to death before He returns, we can avoid death entirely as He TRANSFORMS our bodies into powerful, immortal, indestructible, incorruptible bodies!

Here again I would beg to disagree. It is death that frees us, and unless we identify with Christ's death, we can forget about the resurrection which follows it. I understand you are saying that the resurrection life which we experience now, is incomplete because our bodies are lagging behind our spirits, but God has a purpose in that - evangelism - and, He wants us to enjoy the spoils of His victory as soon as possible. Unless we do, our resurrection will be to damnation. I am in awe of His grace towards us, in making it possible for us to be one with Him, and to have a way of escape from the lusts of this world, to experience healing, deliverance, and the manifestion of His Spirit in our lives.

Yeshua` became our sin for us, in spite of the righteousness of God in Him, so that we could become His righteousness, in spite of our sin!

Surely the import of 2 Corinthians 5:21, is that the sin has been put to death by Christ, in His body, through His death? It is through His death, therefore, that we enter His victory for ourselves, having repented of our sins. This is how I understand it, anyway. Romans 5 introduces 'the sin', then Romans 6 and 7 explain what has happened to it, arriving at the glorious statement in ch 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; Paul has written in the past tense. It's as present to us as we make it.

Now, I'm going to sound like I'm angry at you, but I know that you mean well and most people have never really studied it out and just learn to "go with the flow." So, I'm not really mad at you or anyone. I'm just spouting out my frustration: I REALLY HATE THE WORD "SPIRITUAL!" It Is SO misunderstood and misused that it really borders on an ABNORMAL USAGE, shortened to the word ABUSE! It confuses people and messes with their minds! It's just not used right!

S'ok. The brother I know who knows Hebrew says exactly the same thing. You're not alone, :lol:

Thank you for the very detailed Greek explanation. I really enjoyed it, and will refer to it in the future, I'm sure.

This is what we should understand from 1 Corinthians 15! The bodies with which we will be resurrected won't be "nonphysical" (which is one popular definition of "spiritual"), "other worldly," or "immaterial"; they will be physical bodies that will be FAMOUS, POWERFUL, BLASTING (as opposed to simply breathing), INCAPABLE OF DECAY, TRANSFORMED, INDESTRUCTIBLE, IMMORTAL, AND VICTORIOUS, shining like the stars! THIS is what we've been given to anticipate! That's why I HATE that word "spiritual," which is often thought of as "nonphysical, other worldly, in another dimension of reality, or immaterial!" That's NOT how it was used in the Scriptures!

Interesting about 'shining like the stars'. Percy Gutteridge (who was English, but pastored in California) has a sermon called 'Father of Lights', in which he expresses the belief that Adam and Eve were clothed with glory before the Fall, and when they sinned, the glory departed. This is a primary link to 'glory' being a 'covering'.

And while you have a 'thing' about the word 'spiritual', I have a thing about the word 'covering', because there is nothing in the NT (apart from a quote from the OT) which refers to the blood of Jesus Christ covering our sin or our sins. That's an entirely Old Covenant concept which does nothing to convey the washings of the soul by His blood, through its application by the Holy Spirit.

By not changing the common terminology to that of the NT writers, I believe there are people who genuinely think that the blood of Jesus only covers their sin; not only have they no concept of sin being washed away, they never experienced that washing, either. I could be wrong, but if they'd been washed, they would know, and they wouldn't call it 'covering'... ! Okay. My soapbox is over now. I hope it didn't sound angry. And you know it's not personal, as yours to me wasn't. Back to the topic in hand. Therefore, to be 'shining like the stars', we have been given a small measure of glory back. Amen.

 

[brodav9]

any comments on Isa. 1:18? to me it appears to be God's plan to wash away sins. The Lamb of the O.T. was used and now it is the Lamb of God our redeemer.

I am looking into this use of the word Yeshua. All I know about it is it is just a Jewish way of speaking the name in Hebrew. Us English speaking folks say Jesus. Please don't misunderstand me, Jesus name in any language is wonderful. Jacob said that after he learned that wonderful is the name Molech Yahweh would be called , for it is secret. I say this because there are some who try to make a movement out of the name change in order to debate as to what he should be called.
Many I have known say the name of Jesus and demons come out. If they were Jews they might say in the name of Yeshua being they don't know English. All my statements are for learning and not debate, thank you much.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brodav9,

Please could you explain this sentence a bit more. How does Molech come into it?

Jacob said that after he learned that wonderful is the name Molech Yahweh would be called , for it is secret.

Thanks,