Once Saved Always Saved Garbage Teaching!!

[Grailhunter]

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1Tm:5:24: Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Heb:2:17: Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb:8:12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb:12:1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jms:1:15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jms:2:9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jms:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[Grailhunter]

1Jn:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:5:16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This is not about explaining away the scriptures that you do not like. Plain English, don’t get into imaginative interpretations to explain away scriptures. Klondike explanations have to be applied to other scriptures and it just make it worse.

 

[Davy]

Lets start with the can and cannot sin scriptures.
This debate material is offered in good conscious and fellowship. Love and respect to men and to women. Any negative attitude or demeanor falls short of expectations and objectives. The following is a list of scriptures that support the belief that you cannot sin. It includes many scriptures, but it is not a complete list. There are two sets of scriptures listed one for you cannot sin and one for you can sin. These are mostly short scriptures and I welcome anyone to read the chapters, but do not be surprised if some of the scriptures are in close proximity of scriptures that indicate you can sin. The following scriptures indicate that you cannot sin. These scriptures are from NASB….here it is….

Important to keep verses in context of the chapter they are given in, so I will do just that, with the good ole' KJV Bible.

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

The Rom.4:15 verse isn't really about the act of sin, it's about God's Salvation through Faith on The Gospel, the same Faith Abraham was first given and was accounted to him as righteousness, and given prior to the law. We all believed The Gospel with our entrance into the walk with Him by Faith. And our sins past were remitted. 1 John 1 and Luke 11 shows we still have need to repent of future sin. Jesus told the Churches in Asia in Rev.2 & 3 to repent 7 different times because of their sinning.

1 John 3:4-9
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
KJV

There's more context that goes with the 1 John 3:9 verse. One truly in the Faith should beware of those who pull a single verse out of the chapter's context and instead apply an outside idea to it.

"Whosever abideth in Him" is a condition John gave for those not sinning. What does abide mean? It means a continual walk, day by day until Jesus returns. In Gal.5 Apostle Paul showed it is walking by The Spirit, and not by our flesh. Simple. And since 1 John 1 was PRIOR to this 1 John 3 Scripture, we're supposed to already know what to do when we slip of do future sin, which is about repentance to abide in Christ.


1 John 5:18-21
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
KJV

Amazing that some wish to forget what the previous 1 John chapters taught, and just pull this single 1 John 5:18 verse out by itself and go to town with it. What is more amazing is how they totally miss the last verse there with John warning the brethren to keep away from idols! "Hey brethren, I know you cannot ever sin again, but just make sure you stay away from idols!" The OSAS doctrine has to be absolute, that even around idols we cannot sin. Then why... did John warn them to stay away from idols?? Simple, because it was STILL... possible some of them might fall away to worshiping an idol! Afterall, that is exactly one of the sins many of the early brethren had come out of!

Rom 4:3-9
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
KJV

There again, the Rom.4:7-8 verses are about Abraham's 1st belief of The Gospel and our 1st belief on Christ Jesus The Gospel. And like Paul said in the previous Rom.3 chapter, our past sins is what was forgiven by our 1st belief on Christ Jesus...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV


Rom 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
KJV

It's obvious you don't understand about this law here, God's law. Our Lord Jesus did not nail all of God's laws to His cross. If you're going to a Church that's preaching He did nail all of God's laws to His cross, then you are in a beth-aven (a house of vanity), and not a house of God. Per Paul in Galatians 5, WE... are dead to God's law IF... we walk in The Spirit. God's law is not dead. Jesus nailed the blood ordinances and old covenant ritual to His cross, not all of God's laws. Paul taught Timothy about this also in 1 Timothy 1. You should try reading it sometime, because it is Christian Doctrine.

You really have to cover more than one verse in Rom.6 to get the gist.

Rom 6:1-16
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV

 

[Davy]

....

You really have to cover more than one verse in Rom.6 to get the gist.

Rom 6:1-16
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans and Galatians are two main Books of Christian Doctrine. So they go together. Galatians 5 gives us a condition regarding our walk by The Spirit involving not sinning vs. walking by our flesh and doing the sins that CAN keep us out of Christ's coming Kingdom. So one knowing what Galatians 5 teaches, how can one isolate it here? We cannot.

We are thus 'dead to sin' only IF... we walk by The Spirit and not our flesh, according to Gal.5. Paul is even warning against the thinking that we have free license to sin because Christ's Salvation is by grace, unmerited favor, and not by works.


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul is obviously comparing that death to living by the flesh. This fleshy world is responsible for most of our sin. When the flesh is dead, sins in the flesh is over. While we are in the flesh, we will ever be dealing with sin because of our flesh, until either our flesh dies, or at Christ's coming.


8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even though we still are in the flesh here today, we are to reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus. Notice Paul said 'reckon' (Greek logizomai - to reckon, suppose), not that we are now literally dead unto sin just yet. So remember the 7th verse, that he that is dead is free from sin. Is your flesh body dead yet today? Not if you're able to type here.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is an admonishment from Paul. He isn't saying you cannot ever sin anymore under Christ. He is saying to watch yourself and don't obey your fleshy lusts. He would not have given that warning if it were not possible for us to sin anymore after having believed on our Lord Jesus.


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV

Paul would not have said that above either if it were not possible for us to still do future sin. So we cannot just stop reading here at verse 10 & 11. We have need to read all of what Paul was teaching there in Romans.

Rom 6:18-19
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
KJV

Immediately after verse 18, Paul further defines his meaning in verse 19. The "infirmity of your flesh", what's that? It's the weakness of our flesh towards sin. It is part of this present world, and we will be subject to it all the days of this life in the flesh, until we die. This is why we need to repent to Jesus when we do mess up in future sins, to stay in His grace.

 

[Davy]

Can't really cover Romans 7 with a lot of its context included...

Rom 7:4-25
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The law isn't dead; WE... are considered dead to the law, If we stay in Christ and as "a chaste virgin" like Paul taught in 2 Cor.11.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Like Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1, the law is good, if a man use if lawfully, and was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner and the ungodly. Walking in The Spirit through Christ Jesus is how we are released from the law. The Promise by Faith was about receiving The Holy Spirit in order to know the difference between walking by our flesh vs. walking with Jesus (Gal.3).


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

God gave the law to point to sin and our need for The Saviour Jesus Christ. God made us all subject to sin (except Jesus) so His Salvation would be to those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ.


13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

We at times find ourselves doing what we would not. And what we would do, we find ourselves at times doing just the opposite.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Later Bible translations like to use man's Humanist philosophy to try and teach something different is the reason for sin. Humanism is just a subjective idea. Our flesh causes us to do most of our sinning. Our spirit wars against our flesh. Our flesh imperfection is part of this present world which is to eventually be destroyed.


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

The gist of what Paul is teaching there is that we are to do the best we can to try and overcome the evil that our flesh causes us to desire. We are to prepare for life by The Spirit after our flesh is dead and released from sin. And you will not escape what the flesh does to us, for we will at times slip and still sin while in the flesh. That is why we still need repentance after having believed on Jesus.

 

[marks]

Notice Paul said 'reckon' (Greek logizomai - to reckon, suppose), not that we are now literally dead unto sin just yet.

Hi Davy,

Does God want us to believe something that's not true?

much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

You really have to cover more than one verse in Rom.6 to get the gist.

Rom 6:1-16
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans and Galatians are two main Books of Christian Doctrine. So they go together. Galatians 5 gives us a condition regarding our walk by The Spirit involving not sinning vs. walking by our flesh and doing the sins that CAN keep us out of Christ's coming Kingdom. So one knowing what Galatians 5 teaches, how can one isolate it here? We cannot.

We are thus 'dead to sin' only IF... we walk by The Spirit and not our flesh, according to Gal.5. Paul is even warning against the thinking that we have free license to sin because Christ's Salvation is by grace, unmerited favor, and not by works.


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul is obviously comparing that death to living by the flesh. This fleshy world is responsible for most of our sin. When the flesh is dead, sins in the flesh is over. While we are in the flesh, we will ever be dealing with sin because of our flesh, until either our flesh dies, or at Christ's coming.


8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even though we still are in the flesh here today, we are to reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus. Notice Paul said 'reckon' (Greek logizomai - to reckon, suppose), not that we are now literally dead unto sin just yet. So remember the 7th verse, that he that is dead is free from sin. Is your flesh body dead yet today? Not if you're able to type here.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is an admonishment from Paul. He isn't saying you cannot ever sin anymore under Christ. He is saying to watch yourself and don't obey your fleshy lusts. He would not have given that warning if it were not possible for us to sin anymore after having believed on our Lord Jesus.


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV

Paul would not have said that above either if it were not possible for us to still do future sin. So we cannot just stop reading here at verse 10 & 11. We have need to read all of what Paul was teaching there in Romans.

Rom 6:18-19
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
KJV

Immediately after verse 18, Paul further defines his meaning in verse 19. The "infirmity of your flesh", what's that? It's the weakness of our flesh towards sin. It is part of this present world, and we will be subject to it all the days of this life in the flesh, until we die. This is why we need to repent to Jesus when we do mess up in future sins, to stay in His grace.

Like I said in the beginning....picking a side and explaining the other side away does not resolve anything. Go back to laa laa land. You are of no help.

 

[Enoch111]

Scriptures indicating that you can sin.

While Christians *can* sin, they will not generally want to sin, and indeed the sin nature shall not have dominion over those who are indwelt by the Spirit. For those who do sin (or do not give heed when they are convicted) God has numerous remedies. Yet they do not lose their salvation, since salvation (Christ) is God's gift to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

While Christians *can* sin, they will not generally want to sin, and indeed the sin nature shall not have dominion over those who are indwelt by the Spirit. For those who do sin (or do not give heed when they are convicted) God has numerous remedies. Yet they do not lose their salvation, since salvation (Christ) is God's gift to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Got to do emo's That is not the answer. Can you not see that you have picked a side? The answer has nothing to do with picking the correct side, because they are both correct. Some believe that there is no use trying to figure it out, all those great Christians leaders of the past wrestled with the questions of can you sin, can you not sin, is salvation solid and eternal or all the reasons you can loose your salvation, so what makes us think we can figure it out? Well if you take up the sturdy of Christian history, Catholic or Protestant, the more you know, the more you know how messed up and how self serving it was. They were not looking for the truth. Have some confidence, dig into it. The truth will set you free.

 

[ScottA]

While Christians *can* sin, they will not generally want to sin, and indeed the sin nature shall not have dominion over those who are indwelt by the Spirit. For those who do sin (or do not give heed when they are convicted) God has numerous remedies. Yet they do not lose their salvation, since salvation (Christ) is God's gift to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Got to do emo's That is not the answer. Can you not see that you have picked a side? The answer has nothing to do with picking the correct side, because they are both correct. Some believe that there is no use trying to figure it out, all those great Christians leaders of the past wrestled with the questions of can you sin, can you not sin, is salvation solid and eternal or all the reasons you can loose your salvation, so what makes us think we can figure it out? Well if you take up the sturdy of Christian history, Catholic or Protestant, the more you know, the more you know how messed up and how self serving it was. They were not looking for the truth. Have some confidence, dig into it. The truth will set you free.

This age old question is like asking what a cake will taste like while it is still in the oven. That is because we still looking at things from that perspective. But the scriptures tell us that those things that are true in God, were true from before the foundation of the world; that the wheat is wheat and the tares are tares, that the wheat chooses life and the tares choose death. Good trees produce good fruit, while bad produce bad, etc. It is the ingredients that make the cake, and fervent heat reveals it.

 

[Grailhunter]

This age old question is like asking what a cake will taste like while it is still in the oven. That is because we still looking at things from that perspective. But the scriptures tell us that those things that are true in God, were true from before the foundation of the world; that the wheat is wheat and the tares are tares, that the wheat chooses life and the tares choose death. Good trees produce good fruit, while bad produce bad, etc. It is the ingredients that make the cake, and fervent heat reveals it.

I know...God works in mysteries ways....Who knows the mind of God....if it makes no sense then it is of God....Hey será, será!
Whatever will be, will be, The future's not ours to see. Hey será, será! Who would dare to make sense of it....put your head back in the sand. You are of no help.

 

[David kilmer]

God is a gardener. He designed things to develop, adjust and progress. Look at life, it adjusts to pressure and
randomly tries new strategies. It is amazing how things can adapt and grow, conquer and overcome.

I love evolutionary theory, because it shows the inter-relatedness of life. It has also shown how we are the
product of our environment and also its sculptor. Our perception of God and the world is very much from where
we are, which is always biased and limited. If we are prepared to grow and change then we have hope.

Yes the concept of evolution and God is amazing. But I have always believed in evolution. God evolved when he made a body,vthe Earth, and animals and houses and buildings. From there is proof of evolution on different levels, the concept is there. I have alot of evidence and proof of evolution in my life and skill. Evolution is awesome. I used to sit and watch these animal related programs with my grandfather. About evolution of man and animals. Id watch em quite a few times with him. I learned about it in school and we have clearly made it a long way. I have as well. If you mean I have to be christian as I sorta am, then maybe. I guess I could evolve more there, and take some classes as you suggested. But I believe science evolution and God go hand in hand as God pretty much started or developed it at first and is the foundation but we are capable of it as well.

 

[David kilmer]

Do you know what fractals are?
They are a mathematical equation that creates a pattern that repeats itself in the macro scale and micro scale
so they look the same.
Scripture seems to have this property also. In a few sentences the same interrelationships are expressed that
are shown in bigger stories or parables. They form a continuous whole over stories going over 2,000 years of
history. And one idea can be hidden in a sentence, yet missed time and time again.

I used to read scripture and then get bored. I know the meaning of "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Really. A declaration of total authenticity, the doorway to existence and the whole of creation. Yet it is said
in only a few words. The way, a path, a series of instructions, a life style put into action, a transformation
and growth to achieve a goal. Once you begin to unpack, the unpacking does not stop, and each time
slightly different. Jesus is eternal and extraordinary.

Well my christian was pretty far. Maybe I will more?

 

[David kilmer]

Why you can sin. Scriptures indicating that you can sin. These are from the KJV feel free to look them up in the version of your choice.

Mt:12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mt:5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they nderstand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Pt:2:9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom:7:23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Gal:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Cor:6:18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

2Cor:12:21: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

2Cor:13:2: I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

1Tm:1:15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Okay so I used to be a sinner and I got turned from my evil way to light. A change was needed and I delivered it. But is a simple change to last forever? It is a change by the way, but the world changed long ago. Evolution is what it is called. What is all this talk of judgement if someone has made up their mind? I mean I may be a Christian but is forever necessary? Why would those who like how they live or don't know have to be judged of God if they found something out of life's journey? What if the true nature of you is against judgement or punishment and light all the time or even God?

 

[David kilmer]

I know...God works in mysteries ways....Who knows the mind of God....if it makes no sense then it is of God....Hey será, será!
Whatever will be, will be, The future's not ours to see. Hey será, será! Who would dare to make sense of it....put your head back in the sand. You are of no help.

Thank you.

 

[David kilmer]

I have got strict victory over quite a few sins already.

 

[ScottA]

I know...God works in mysteries ways....Who knows the mind of God....if it makes no sense then it is of God....Hey será, será!
Whatever will be, will be, The future's not ours to see. Hey será, será! Who would dare to make sense of it....put your head back in the sand. You are of no help.

Raspberries then.

 

[Grailhunter]

Okay so I used to be a sinner and I got turned from my evil way to light. A change was needed and I delivered it. But is a simple change to last forever? It is a change by the way, but the world changed long ago. Evolution is what it is called. What is all this talk of judgement if someone has made up their mind? I mean I may be a Christian but is forever necessary? Why would those who like how they live or don't know have to be judged of God if they found something out of life's journey? What if the true nature of you is against judgement or punishment and light all the time or even God?

Good testimony...thank you.

 

[David kilmer]

Like I said in the beginning....picking a side and explaining the other side away does not resolve anything. Go back to laa laa land. You are of no help.

I think both sides are good.

 

[Grailhunter]

Raspberries then.

That is good enough Scott.