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FollowHim

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Does not answer the question...dodging again.
Look...I am not your judge nor do I want to put condemnation on you. Your salvation is between you and God. I cannot see your heart. He judges our heart. I regret joining this thread. What breaks our Father's heart is this very thing. I bow out. It isn't for me to condemn or rebuke what you believe as long as you believe Jesus is our way to salvation then how you arrive at the finish line is between you and Him. We each have our own walk to walk according to our faith.

I truly love this, thank you. I say this because I met a series of members of forums who would call people
liars, hypocrites, deceivers, sinners and say they sin daily, sometimes listing their failures and then talking as
if everyone else was like them. What I love in Jesus, when and if we fall, if we confess and repent He will
forgive us through the cross. The concept we are washed, cleansed, made whole, holy, purified, blameless
is for some impossible for even 5 minutes.
Some believe in inherited sin from Adam which has been called sexual desire by some. You only really know
what scripture teaches until you start asking awkward questions. But then as we follow the Truth, Jesus, we
should be asking these questions, because He will provide the answers, amen, God bless you
 
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Heart2Soul

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Maybe you should give examples of what you regard as sin.
Some call speeding a sin, or crossing the road at the wrong place, or not following some man made rule
that is a guide and empowers authorities to take action but that is all.
Some have uncontrolled rage against bad drivers or trains being late, or people being rude.
Some think shouting out when you hit your hand is sin, or getting frustrated when stuff does not go
right. So I wonder whether the legalist in you is speaking louder than the grace and promise of Christ.
God bless you
Legalist make people live under the law...I live by His Grace...
 
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FollowHim

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The temple was created so that though Israel was not perfect they could learn to walk in Gods ways and grow in grace.
We have a walk of discipleship, transformation, learning and change. Getting disappointed at yet not arriving, and
having work still to do, should be an encouragement that God is working in you, rather than condemnation of failure.

It is a life long walk, one step at a time. I was once in darkness but now I walk in His wonderful light.
 
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FollowHim

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When you begin to see evil actions and loving actions, you begin to understand Gods heart.
Our hearts are easily clouded by hurt, revenge, unforgiveness, defence, aggression, desire
rather than seeing need, bondage to behaviour, weakness, openness to encouragement,
blessing and love. Until love and the cross has set things straight how can we hope to help
anyone else. We would rather run a long way than do this. God bless you
 
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Heart2Soul

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When you begin to see evil actions and loving actions, you begin to understand Gods heart.
Our hearts are easily clouded by hurt, revenge, unforgiveness, defence, aggression, desire
rather than seeing need, bondage to behaviour, weakness, openness to encouragement,
blessing and love. Until love and the cross has set things straight how can we hope to help
anyone else. We would rather run a long way than do this. God bless you
Love is the commandment that Jesus desires from us. To love God first, to love our neighbors as ourselves second...
In obeying this commandment to love we fulfill all the law because love is perfect.
 

FollowHim

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Love is the commandment that Jesus desires from us. To love God first, to love our neighbors as ourselves second...
In obeying this commandment to love we fulfill all the law because love is perfect.

For me it has been weird to met believers who did not know this reality of love.
For them there hearts were their own, and God was not allowed in. Why this is so odd is God commands
us to love Him with our hearts, soul and mind.

If ones heart was closed and full of sinful desire, not clean and purified, how could one love God.
Others claimed their emotions should not be looked at at all, rather than Jesus came to sort out
our reactions to the world and how we live one to one. So for them the fruit of the spirit is a
world away from their day to day reactions. I was attacked for creating psycho babble, by saying
the fruit of God in our hearts is reflected in our emotions.

This demonstrates some can have all the words, theology, faith but it has not touched who they
really are and how they behave. It has taught me hard hearts are an indication of Christ not reigning
or moving in someone. I used to think this was judgemental, but now I see it is just stating the
reality. How can the love of God live within one, if you let your brother in Christ go in need when you
could help them?

17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3
 
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Heart2Soul

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For me it has been weird to met believers who did not know this reality of love.
For them there hearts were their own, and God was not allowed in. Why this is so odd is God commands
us to love Him with our hearts, soul and mind.

If ones heart was closed and full of sinful desire, not clean and purified, how could one love God.
Others claimed their emotions should not be looked at at all, rather than Jesus came to sort out
our reactions to the world and how we live one to one. So for them the fruit of the spirit is a
world away from their day to day reactions. I was attacked for creating psycho babble, by saying
the fruit of God in our hearts is reflected in our emotions.

This demonstrates some can have all the words, theology, faith but it has not touched who they
really are and how they behave. It has taught me hard hearts are an indication of Christ not reigning
or moving in someone. I used to think this was judgemental, but now I see it is just stating the
reality. How can the love of God live within one, if you let your brother in Christ go in need when you
could help them?

17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3
Exactly....it grieves my heart to read some of the posts on Christian forums. I try to correct the errors at times but then I realize that that they just haven't come to the understanding yet. So I have to bow out...only the Holy Spirit can guide them to know this truth.
 
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GodsGrace

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The very meaning of salvation is ETERNAL SECURITY having received ETERNAL LIFE.

"SHALL" MEANS WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (Jn 10:9)

LIFE WITH CHRIST IS ETERNAL AND ABUNDANT
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (Jn 10:10)

THE GOOD SHEPHERD KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND DOES NOT LOSE THEM
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine...
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

(Jn 10:14,27)

CHRIST'S SHEEP RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE AND SHALL NEVER PERISH
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish... (Jn 10:28a)

NO ONE CAN PLUCK CHRIST'S SHEEP FROM HIS HAND OR THE FATHER'S HAND

...neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (Jn 10:28b,29)

Note: This is all about genuine children of God -- Christ's sheep. Eternal life is GOD'S GIFT to the one who repents and believes.
 

GodsGrace

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The very meaning of salvation is ETERNAL SECURITY having received ETERNAL LIFE.

"SHALL" MEANS WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (Jn 10:9)

LIFE WITH CHRIST IS ETERNAL AND ABUNDANT
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (Jn 10:10)

THE GOOD SHEPHERD KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND DOES NOT LOSE THEM
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine...
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

(Jn 10:14,27)

CHRIST'S SHEEP RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE AND SHALL NEVER PERISH
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish... (Jn 10:28a)

NO ONE CAN PLUCK CHRIST'S SHEEP FROM HIS HAND OR THE FATHER'S HAND

...neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (Jn 10:28b,29)

Note: This is all about genuine children of God -- Christ's sheep. Eternal life is GOD'S GIFT to the one who repents and believes.
You know Enoch,,,
Every verse you've posted could be countered with a different verse.

The thing is this: We don't lose salvation...it's that we don't want it anymore.
If we abandon JESUS, who is the LIFE GIVER, then we will certainly no longer be assured of salvation.

If HE was necessary for salvation...then we must hold on to HIM.
If we need FAITH to be saved and we lose that faith...
Are we still saved?

Shall be saved: Sure. Jesus said IF we enter through HIM, we shall be saved. HE is necessary for salvation.

Life more Abundant: Yes. If we live with Christ and IN CHRIST,,,we do have life more abundant.
What if we stop living IN CHRIST?

The Sheep: Of course Jesus knows His sheep and we listen to His voice.
What if we stop listening to His voice?
Are we still His sheep?

Eternal Life: Jesus is the giver of eternal life.
Do we still have eternal life if we abandon Jesus? The GIVER of eternal life....

Being Plucked out of God's hand: No one can pluck us out of the hand of God...not even satan (except in indirect ways)...but, as they say, we can sure walk out by our own free will.


We did not lose free will when we became saved.....
We can still decide to abandon God.

Two verses,,,if you could explain them:

Colossians 1:21-23
John 15:5-6
 

Ezra

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Maybe you should give examples of what you regard as sin.
james wrote to him who knows to do good and don't is sin. sin of omission of commission Grace and mercy are two wonderful things in a child of God life. we have the advocate paul covered the sin in romans in fact he devoted all of romans 6 to the issue of sin in our life .
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

i have said this before in another forum you can or can not lose/ walk away from salvation ..is not in the Bible :eek:


we are given specific instructions and we are to follow them.. i dont preach either way . every time this subject comes up.. the words I BELIEVE. comes up. this subject will never be settled
 

FollowHim

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Explaining
Human spirit - a spark of life, ones emotions, not eternal, not significant
Fruit - God destroys things that are not fruitful, literally.

Some believe "Free grace" "Hyper grace" followers, that when they come to faith they receive an eternal spirit,
which is who they now are, and a flesh that is sinful and evil. The eternal spirit is holy, pure, perfect, like Jesus.
So some say we just have to realise our true identity to walk in Jesus's ways.
They will downplay sin and evil deeds, as inevitable and something one cannot avoid, but which Jesus has already
forgiven, past, present and future sins. Followers like this will talk about being forgiven while sinning.
They regard conviction of sin of satan and his lies saying Gods people are sinners and not saved.

They will go on to claim because they are saved with a pure eternal spirit, they do not have to have any fruit at
all in their lives. If they had fruit, as a necessity of salvation, then that is putting a condition on the free gift,
which is therefore unbelief, heresy and evil and only deceived people preach like this. Therefore fruitless beleivers
or even believers who fall away, follow satan are still saved.

Jesus declared he will destroy fruitless plants, no matter their origin. This invalidates the idea of an eternal spirit
at rebirth, which is why they reject Jesus's words and will not accept the reality of God creating in us a new creation
which encompasses our heart, soul and mind.
 
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FollowHim

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james wrote to him who knows to do good and don't is sin. sin of omission of commission Grace and mercy are two wonderful things in a child of God life. we have the advocate paul covered the sin in romans in fact he devoted all of romans 6 to the issue of sin in our life .
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

i have said this before in another forum you can or can not lose/ walk away from salvation ..is not in the Bible :eek:


we are given specific instructions and we are to follow them.. i dont preach either way . every time this subject comes up.. the words I BELIEVE. comes up. this subject will never be settled

This is quoting scripture. What I am getting at is people often have in their minds, this sin is unavoidable.
But in the end the focus is in the wrong place. We walk in love and service looking to Jesus and His example.
Along the way we might fall, at which time we fell sorrow, understand our failure, repent of, understand what
we should have done and carry on.

The focus of some is I am this out of control sinner who displays their sin like this, and you are the same.
Jesus is saying you are this saint, a redeemed, washed, purified sinner who has love and care at the enter in their
heart, so your life will reflect this. Some behaviour patterns remain untouched and will come out, but you can
bring them Christ and work through them so you literally change.

Until people stop talking generalities and get real about evil behaviour and walking in love, it becomes a mud
slinging operation that benefits no one. And I have been a victim of this for extended periods so no it exactly.
 

FollowHim

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Eternal security is where my heart is.
Eternal does not mean without conditions, it means I understand Jesus's heart.

So when you see the cross, and Jesus dying on it for you personally it changes you inside.
Like we know our children, we love them and know our bond with them is secure.
But it can be broken by behaviour and problems, and is a mutual thing that progresses through time.

Our security with Jesus is similar, except we are the saint who could wander away, while Jesus will
always stay faithful. We can depend upon Him and His truths into eternity, Amen.
 

Nancy

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I can't remember your position on eternal security and I do respect you and your posts...
however, I must agree with the O.P. that OSAS is what he calls garbage.

Now, personally I would not use that term...
However, I do agree that this idea is not in the N.T.
None of the writers agree with it...
and certainly, Jesus did not agree with it.

Need verses?

Got plenty.

Calvinists themselves do not like the term OSAS so, they use the "P" in TULIP- Perseverance of the saints, which makes it sound more biblical as, we ARE to persevere but...they honestly DO believe once saved always saved. I have been fighting their doctrines for years now and, am so over it as...it just goes round and round to a place called NOWHERE!!! Lol.
 

OzSpen

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The spirit in us is the spark of life, without the spark we are dead.
The spark of life returns to God, and the body is just dust.
When Jesus died, he commited the essence of His life to God, for God to raise Him again.
The spirit or spark of life returned to the girl, and she got up.

There is a big difference calling the spark of life the independant consciousness and reality of an individual
outside the body that passes over and onwards into other worlds. That is spiritualism, and the basis of
mediums and talking to the dead. Scripture bans such activity and is the basis of much heresy and lying.

I notice you didn't use any Scripture to support your statements. That makes them your opinion or assertions.
 

Heart2Soul

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Calvinists themselves do not like the term OSAS so, they use the "P" in TULIP- Perseverance of the saints, which makes it sound more biblical as, we ARE to persevere but...they honestly DO believe once saved always saved. I have been fighting their doctrines for years now and, am so over it as...it just goes round and round to a place called NOWHERE!!! Lol.
As I pointed out earlier only those who harden their hearts towards God after receiving salvation are in jeopardy of losing their salvation.
 
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Grailhunter

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Are these scriptures at fault?

John 3:29
“And the next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”

John 3:15-18
“that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 10:28:30
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. and the Father are one.”

Romans 8:38-39
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Ephesians 1:13-14
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

Ephesians 2:8-9
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Colossians 2:12-14
"Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled"

I have posed questions like this before. Here are two camps of theological thought, once saved always saved and those that believe you can loose your saved status. Both camps have studied the scriptures, both camps are knowledgeable, both camps can produce the scriptures that support their beliefs. Both camps can do a tap dance to explain them, coming up with Klondike interpretations. Which does not help anything but skew other scriptures. For how many centuries do you think this has been debated? Is this the wisest course of action? Back and forth, back and forth. Each camp presents two sets of scriptures that seem to contradict, but in the seam, is the truth and the wisdom, the seam holds them together. So what is the truth that brings these scriptures into harmony? Isn’t that the better question? If you find it, it will be a treasure to you. The truth will set you free, a lie will bind you up in contradiction and controversy, back and forth, back and forth. You have to find it, because wisdom given is unappreciated and trampled under foot, wisdom found is a treasure and held dear to your heart. Who was it that gave this analogy?

Proverbs 3:13-20
"How blessed is the man who finds wisdom And the man who gains understanding. For her profit is better than the profit of silver And her gain better than fine gold. She is more precious than jewels; And nothing you desire compares with her. Long life is in her right hand; In her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are pleasant ways And all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who hold her fast. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens. By His knowledge the deeps were broken up And the skies drip with dew."
 
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DoveSpirit05

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Does not answer the question...dodging again.
Look...I am not your judge nor do I want to put condemnation on you. Your salvation is between you and God. I cannot see your heart. He judges our heart. I regret joining this thread. What breaks our Father's heart is this very thing. I bow out. It isn't for me to condemn or rebuke what you believe as long as you believe Jesus is our way to salvation then how you arrive at the finish line is between you and Him. We each have our own walk to walk according to our faith.

and ur on the wrong path i'm sorry, and i'm just pointing dat out, its our job 2 judge john 7:24 states dat and ur doing a category error each time i'm not dodging i'm answering you!