Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[amadeus]

Understanding of the knowledge, IS A GIFT from God.

Or it the result of the "quickening spirit"...

 

[Taken]

LOL
That's not a testimony. Even your terms are confused.

Good grief, get a Dictonary. When you open your mouth and speak you are testifying.
Perhaps you require your hand on the Bible and swear an oath to tell the truth, before you actually tell the truth.

That's what is commonly called an accusation.

That it was an unfounded false statement out of your mouth. Own it!

So everything becomes moot?

Scripture is True.
You on the other hand, make unfounded false statement.

Not left with too many words are you?

Not for one who needs a Q-tip and mouthwash.

Since you've been found out...

Correct - I trust Scripture teaches to give DILIGENCE before making ones calling and election SURE.

Unlike some people who teach it's a mind reasoning decision to call on the Lord.

Rom 8:7
...the carnal mind is ENIMITY AGAINST God.

I've never heard such nonsense as you expouse.

Being content without understanding is not an asset.

BELIEF in the Lord is all that is necessary for salvation.

Apparently you are sorely unaware, man has reasoning and logic capabilities in the thoughts of his carnal mind and true thoughts in his heart.

You have already revealed your BELIEF and your FAITH comes from your reasoning.

Too bad, you didn't spend some time Learning;

God searches the thoughts of a mans Heart, for Confession of Belief.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

lol

sry, but you gotta understand how this sounds in light of the knowledge that none of us can even determine where >95% of Creation even is; our current term for it is "dark matter."

But at least i know you're a male now lol

But, of course, you are presuming that science is correct in their conclusion that it was 95% unidentifiable. How much of God is identifiable? I remember one pastor I had many years ago saying that we already had more than 95% of the truth. How could he know that or how can you or I know how much there is or how much of that unknown quantity we really do have?

The only way any of us can know we are right in any of the things of God is by Him... if He has been sharing them with us.

Some will say that they can know by the scripture, but that is only true if the person knows exactly what God means by the scripture. Thousands of Christian denominations supposedly based upon the scriptures would seem to be saying that there is a fair amount of disagreement.

 

[Helen]

@amadeus I must be getting too old for this. Half the time I have no idea what people are talking about!!

 

[amadeus]

not buying that either, sry; we are told to not talk to the dead, we are not told that it is not possible.

God is not in that anywhere imo, and you can talk to dead ppl without God all day long if you want to i guess

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37

Yet, all of us have regular talks with dead people all around us, people who have not acknowledged and received Life from Jesus. Where is the line to be drawn, if a line is to be drawn on this lack of conversation? What is idle and what is not?

 

[Taken]

That's NOT what the Bible says - in CONTEXT.
Your problem is that you cherry-pick to arrive at your aberrant positions.

The context of Scripture tells us that works are a VITAL part of our faith.

Well, sure IF YOU ARE A JEW UNDER THE LAW!

Are you a JEW?

In fact, James tells us that Belief + Works = FAITH (James 2:14-26).

In fact, James was a Jew!!
Speaking to? His JEW brethren!

James
2:14
What does it PROFIT, my BRETHREN, though a man say he has faith, and not have works?
CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

Uh huh!! Faith CAN SAVE HIM!

Luke 7:[50]
....(Jesus) said...
Thy faith HATH SAVED THEE....!!

Eph 2:8
By Grace ye have been saved, through Faith...
NOT BY YOUR OWN DOING...
It is a gift of God.

However IF you are a JEW still under the LAW.....yes, you and your brethren Jews, must to DO WORKS and ENDURE to the end, following your laws and doing works to receive SALVATION.

Without faith, you cannot be saved, correct?

Uh...eternal faithFULLNESS, is a gift given after Saving.

Simply believing is NOT enough because even the demons believe but aren't saved (James 2:19) . . .

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SIMPLY BELIEVING?....(oh right, you did, I didn't)

Scripture is very clear...EXACT< PRECISE<
Believing in ones heart is Gods Requiremet of Confession of Belief!

Lots of people believe in their MINDS, then change their MINDS and stop believing....

AND? So what? What do you not get??
The Carnal MIND thoughts is against God.
The Lord searches the HEART thoughts.

And James 2:19...Devils believe and tremble.

So? What does that have to do with a natural man making a confession of Belief from the thoughts of his heart?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[FHII]

(Mark 6:13) doesn't say Judas drove out any demons. The twelve as a group drove out demons. They went out two by two, and as two by two they drove out demons.

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Note it says 'is a devil', not will become a devil. Judas was a devil when he was chosen. Judas is not a picture of one who lost his salvation. He never was saved.

Stranger

Stranger, I have no problem with someone saying Judas cast out demons and healed people. He was part of that, and to deny his part is to say neither did Peter or John or the others. But it isn't a big point with me. You are correct in that he never was saved. John wrote this that shows this to be true:

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

For 2 years and 11 and a half months Judas didn't show too many signs as being a problem. (Don't correct me on the time frame itself... I am making a point). Peter was a bigger problem than anyone else and it was actually a good thing. But that quote from John tells us that even though Judas may havve done everything the others did, he never was "of them". At least not in the full sense.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus I must be getting too old for this. Half the time I have no idea what people are talking about!!

View attachment 1802

That's OK. It confirms for me that I am not alone in my ignorance of so many things. But... then do we have to know about everything in order to please God? I think not.

 

[Taken]

@amadeus I must be getting too old for this. Half the time I have no idea what people are talking about!!

View attachment 1802

Well ~ that is because some think confession from a reasoning mind, is all they need to know....and others can not differentiate when Scripture applies to a Jew and when it applies to a SAVED Gentile.

When they go off on a tangent making up lies and namecalling....it puts the whole conversation into mumbo jumbo.

It's not your age, it's the World.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[APAK]

That's NOT what the Bible says - in CONTEXT.
Your problem is that you cherry-pick to arrive at your aberrant positions.

The context of Scripture tells us that works are a VITAL part of our faith.
In fact, James tells us that Belief + Works = FAITH (James 2:14-26).

Without faith, you cannot be saved, correct?
Simply believing is NOT enough because even the demons believe but aren't saved (James 2:19) . . .

Bread of Life: Not to steal any thunder in your conversation with Taken...

I just would like to add my few cents on your important subject(s) ...faith, works, salvation baptism....

Faith without works is definitely a scriptural axiom as in James that was quoted, and even Paul . Is it understood? If one thinks performing all the humblest works for mankind and God with the belief one is then faithful, righteous or even regenerated, without the presence and power of God is folly.

James as in other verses on the same subject speaks of possessing and working with the divine spirit and power within you, this is the sign of spiritual faith not the spirit of man’s selfish faith that amounts to nothing. Believers with strong faith will do God’s will as Abraham did with his son (James 2:23-24). His works were of works brought about by the divine spirit and power of God. These works though don’t cause righteousness. These works of Abraham are the product or evidence of his eternal salvation and is characteristic of all believers having the living God within our hearts. Works without salvation are worthless.

Failure to understand salvation causes the confusion of faith with works that God sanctions versus what man sanctions. Do you know that God sanctions your works, and then how do you really know?

Now for those that believe you go in and of salvation many times during your life, like a yo-yo, how can you know your faith is ‘genuine’ at one time and not at another time, and when are your works acceptable to our Lord and Savior and his Father? It sounds like a lot of self-work and confusion going on…I can see why a priest works overtime...

APAK

 

[Taken]

So what does this verse mean?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Natural (human) carnal men came from DUST of the earth.

NO natural (human) carnal man came from Heaven. God created a Habitat for mankind, then out of that Habitat, God created the creatures that would abide on such Habitat (ie Earth).

Jesus is the NAME of Gods Word.
Just like on this forum the NAME of your Word, is amadeus.

Jesus came forth out from Gods mouth,
Isa 55:11

from Heaven to Earth, in the LIKENESS, as a man.
John 16:28
Heb 10:5

Had Jesus come to Earth, in HIS OWN LIKENESS, mankind would NOT have been able to SEE Him.

Jesus TOOK UPON HIMSELF, the Likeness as a man. Phil Chapt 2

Jesus also TOOK UPON HIMSELF, the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:16

God in Heaven said, He would be a Father to Jesus, and Jesus would be to Him "A" son. Heb 1:5

Jesus returned BODILY to Heaven, from whence He came.
John 16:28

Jesus' BODY is still in Heaven.
His Spirit is readily available for every human carnal man that ELECTS to become Saved and Born Again.

I see Jesus in more than one heaven even as in another place the apostle Paul spoke of a 3rd heaven.

In Gen 1 we find God created the Heaven.
Then we learn of the firmament, the hosts, and by Gen 2 we find there are "sort of like" layers, of divisions in Heaven, and they are now called Heaven(S).

We know Heaven is Gods Throne.
We know Satan rebelled against God in the Heaven with him thinking he could rise above the stars, above Gods place.
So we know Gods place is above the Stars.
We also know NOTHING can rise above God.
Paul speaking of the 3rd Heaven, I believe, is a place solely reserved for God, that nothing of Sin or Darkness can enter, and no light can escape....it PURE light.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[APAK]

This is the blunder that YOU and every other absolutist makes.
You take ONE verse and build an entire doctrine around it - instead of taking ALL of the pertinent verses about salvation in context.

The Bible ALSO says that the following saves us and/or aids in our salvation:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)


As for the verse YOU presented - here is how Jesus clarifies that:
Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

BreadOfLife:

Let me known if you want me to decipher the scriptures for you that supposedly support or bring salvation you cites in 'red' above. I will reveal how these verses do not support salvation in any way shape or form, just like I explained why those 6-8 verses you previously supplied said they proved a believer can lose salvation, and they did nothing of the sort.

I just need a little more time though as you have over 28 verses to examine and not 6-8 verses as before.

I'm happy to do this as it helps me hone my scripture studies and skills, and maybe I may find errors in my current thinking that needs to be revised and revealed.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, sure IF YOU ARE A JEW UNDER THE LAW!
Are you a JEW?
In fact, James was a Jew!!
Speaking to? His JEW brethren!

James
2:14
What does it PROFIT, my BRETHREN, though a man say he has faith, and not have works?
CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

Uh huh!! Faith CAN SAVE HIM!

Luke 7:[50]
....(Jesus) said...
Thy faith HATH SAVED THEE....!!

Eph 2:8
By Grace ye have been saved, through Faith...
NOT BY YOUR OWN DOING...
It is a gift of God.

However IF you are a JEW still under the LAW.....yes, you and your brethren Jews, must to DO WORKS and ENDURE to the end, following your laws and doing works to receive SALVATION.

Uh...eternal faithFULLNESS, is a gift given after Saving.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SIMPLY BELIEVING?....(oh right, you did, I didn't)
Scripture is very clear...EXACT< PRECISE<
Believing in ones heart is Gods Requiremet of Confession of Belief!
Lots of people believe in their MINDS, then change their MINDS and stop believing....

AND? So what? What do you not get??
The Carnal MIND thoughts is against God.
The Lord searches the HEART thoughts.

And James 2:19...Devils believe and tremble.
So? What does that have to do with a natural man making a confession of Belief from the thoughts of his heart?

God Bless,
Taken

First of all - James was a CHRISTIAN and he was writing as a CHRISTIAN - to fellow CHRISTIANS.
YOU recoil at what he wrote because you are a Scriptural cherry-picker and you don't understand the Word of God in its proper context.

This is precisely why Martin Luther wanted to delete the Epistle of James from his German translation - along with other Books like Hebrews, Jude and Revelation. Too Catholic . . .

James was not under the Law - he was in CHRIST. What he wrote harmonizes with the rest of the Gospel message - for those who understand how to read God's Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bread of Life: Not to steal any thunder in your conversation with Taken...

I just would like to add my few cents on your important subject(s) ...faith, works, salvation baptism....

Faith without works is definitely a scriptural axiom as in James that was quoted, and even Paul . Is it understood? If one thinks performing all the humblest works for mankind and God with the belief one is then faithful, righteous or even regenerated, without the presence and power of God is folly.

James as in other verses on the same subject speaks of possessing and working with the divine spirit and power within you, this is the sign of spiritual faith not the spirit of man’s selfish faith that amounts to nothing. Believers with strong faith will do God’s will as Abraham did with his son (James 2:23-24). His works were of works brought about by the divine spirit and power of God. These works though don’t cause righteousness. These works of Abraham are the product or evidence of his eternal salvation and is characteristic of all believers having the living God within our hearts. Works without salvation are worthless.

Failure to understand salvation causes the confusion of faith with works that God sanctions versus what man sanctions. Do you know that God sanctions your works, and then how do you really know?

Now for those that believe you go in and of salvation many times during your life, like a yo-yo, how can you know your faith is ‘genuine’ at one time and not at another time, and when are your works acceptable to our Lord and Savior and his Father? It sounds like a lot of self-work and confusion going on…I can see why a priest works overtime...

APAK

Hi APAK -

The faith that James describes is not a mere intellectual assent. If it lacks works - it lacks substance.
God prepared works for US to do (Eph. 2:10). He doesn't do them for us. WE must do His will or we won't be saved. Only the one who DOES the will of the Father will be saved (Matt. 7:21).

James drives the point home that without works - all you have is belief - like the demons (James 2:19).
Belief and works are married to produce faith. You can't have true faith without either one - and without faith, you can't be saved.

Works by themselves will get you nowhere.
The same is true for belief all by itself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife:

Let me known if you want me to decipher the scriptures for you that supposedly support or bring salvation you cites in 'red' above. I will reveal how these verses do not support salvation in any way shape or form, just like I explained why those 6-8 verses you previously supplied said they proved a believer can lose salvation, and they did nothing of the sort.

I just need a little more time though as you have over 28 verses to examine and not 6-8 verses as before.

I'm happy to do this as it helps me hone my scripture studies and skills, and maybe I may find errors in my current thinking that needs to be revised and revealed.

Bless you,

APAK

I have some extra time, so I'll help you out . . .

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Baptism is essential to salvation.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
At Jesus's Baptism just 2 chapters earlier - we saw the Water and Spirit He was talking about.

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Belief by itself gets you nowhere.

John 14:15
If you LOVE me, keep my commandments.
Do you think that those who don't love Jesus will be saved??

Matt. 25:31-45
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me . . .

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for ME.’
The works spoken of here are TRUE faith - not simply a stated faith.

 

[APAK]

Hi APAK -

The faith that James describes is not a mere intellectual assent. If it lacks works - it lacks substance.
God prepared works for US to do (Eph. 2:10). He doesn't do them for us. WE must do His will or we won't be saved. Only the one who DOES the will of the Father will be saved (Matt. 7:21).

James drives the point home that without works - all you have is belief - like the demons (James 2:19).
Belief and works are married to produce faith. You can't have true faith without either one - and without faith, you can't be saved.

Works by themselves will get you nowhere.
The same is true for belief all by itself.

BreadOfLife: I agree with your entire reply and that faith with works is not a mere intellectual exercise.

The substance you mentioned that must be present is from the combination of being led by the power and spirit to perform or act 'spontaneously' beyond the minds understanding or close to it as possible to being spontaneous, where the fallen human spirit/nature never has a chance to dominate and get involved, to take the credit. If this does occur then these works lack substance and are worthless and done with spiritual faith that God desires. This is how I know I am walking in the spirit and doing works of God that validate my salvation.

APAK

 

[APAK]

I meant ..done WITHOUT spiritual faith that God desires......oops..

APAK

 

[APAK]

I have some extra time, so I'll help you out . . .

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Baptism is essential to salvation.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
At Jesus's Baptism just 2 chapters earlier - we saw the Water and Spirit He was talking about.

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Belief by itself gets you nowhere.

John 14:15
If you LOVE me, keep my commandments.
Do you think that those who don't love Jesus will be saved??

Matt. 25:31-45
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me . . .

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for ME.’
The works spoken of here are TRUE faith - not simply a stated faith.

BreadOfLife: it will take more that this to convince even a casual reader that your part or one-liners explain each verse. It is not convincing at all. I'm tempted to expand on what you have written, every one of the verse right now, although I won't. My intention is not to rock you needlessly as I know you seem to be sincere. Nevertheless, I can already see glaring holes in your very short cryptic answers....

Have you done much scripture study independently from reading Catechisms, listening to Catholic sermons, listening to priests and Catholic explanations of scripture? I venture to say you have not and I will volunteer my time to even go over any verse with you. Bible study is more that seizing a verse that seems to fit (cherry-picking) your belief model and the SAME conclusions each time based on you religious experience and religious wisdom. Bible study at least means praying to the spirit of God and working out the word of God faithfully and sincerely in your heart. Of course the rules of interpretation and meaning apply that also involves knowing the context, audience, writer/ speaker and knowledge of 2000 year old language and usage, and of course knowing which parts of scripture has be clearly altered over time.

Again Bless you, I just want to help...an ego is not my goal and shame on me if I did. My goal is to some how edify both of us with some common ground even if we have to agree to disagree. At least the effort was made.

You know I used to be a Catholic once, as part of mandatory religion. The nuns were excellent at teaching discipline, civics, manners and the way to live in the world. I was their pet...My Dad was a Catholic and I believe he was saved, maybe with little faith, I won't judge. I saw works of the spirit in him and lots of self-made worthless prideful works as well, as all of us at times. Regardless, he still has eternal salvation. He believed in his heart the faith and works of Jesus and showed this type of faith and works at times that showed evidence of his salvation. He would never admit though that he was saved in a non-Catholic way..he was a very proud man...he was a Roman Catholic and defended it with his dear life...


APAK

 

[Helen]

That's OK. It confirms for me that I am not alone in my ignorance of so many things. But... then do we have to know about everything in order to please God? I think not.

Haha!
So often in a thread, there is so much mumbo jumbo ( to quote 'Taken')
So often I try to 'read along' in a thread and then suddenly I feel like Alice In Wonderland , and I wonder if I have fallen down the rabbit hole into a crazy world. So much often doesn't even make spiritual sense. lol

It just I have found today especially hard to understand what some of the posts are saying! Maybe it is me.
Bless you..Helen

 

[mjrhealth]

You believe that LOST people can cast out demons and heal the sick in Christ's name??

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.