Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[bbyrd009]

Yesterday's was a mistake.
This is the real deal.
What you said reminded me of John the Baptist.

aw man i missed yesterday's?

missed ya where ya been?

 

[GodsGrace]

aw man i missed yesterday's?

missed ya where ya been?

Yesterday's.
Yeah, you missed a sexy chick.
I need a break every now and then.
And, I don't like very serious threads anymore.
What could it mean?
Nice to see you.

 

[Helen]

because of what, again? sorry, could you expand on what "this" means?
or, do you mean just the act of believing it? ty

Im not quite following you. Not sure what you didn't understand.

I guess basically I am saying those who do Not believe in OSAS seem to stay Christians just because they are frightened of hell, if they don't do everything perfectly right, God will "un-save" them .
But those who believe in OSAS live and move free of that fear, they Trust God that their salvation is sure . Therefore their motivation is different.

You know that for 20 yrs of my christian life I believed that , I was always trying to be a better christian, more holy, more loving , more everything...but my motivation was through fear.
*I believe that our love for God cannot be free and even honest, all the time we believe that we have to stay perfect to be saved.
We can still mouth that we love God...but why do we...because we are scared, not because we are free.

Not sure I have explained it any better this time around either.
And no, I am not trying to change your mind. We each have to seek God for ourselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yesterday's.
Yeah, you missed a sexy chick.
I need a break every now and then.
And, I don't like very serious threads anymore.
What could it mean?
Nice to see you.

yes, it is all vanity is mostly what that means imo, and being present IRL is really what matters. i come here like i go to congregations now, to serve as a sacrifice. even if i'm still bad at it, terrible listener i guess, etc.
"serious" to me means new information that seems likely to bear fruit now, to me,
but there is no crime if serious to someone else is not what is serious to me anymore
we are told that we won't run out of towns to 'spread the word' in (once the perspective is understood)
"treasure is everywhere"

 

[Helen]

This is the real deal.
What you said reminded me of John the Baptist.

Yes, it was a play on words.

Glad we have finally 'met' you....almost in person.
And I agree with you...I get no joy from the "heavy" threads....where it is mostly intellectual arguments ...they wear me out and they don't really do much for anyone!!

Bless you...H

 

[bbyrd009]

I guess basically I am saying those who do Not believe in OSAS seem to stay Christians just because they are frightened of hell, if they don't do everything perfectly right, God will "un-save" them .

right and they get this idea from a "grace centered church" right so when i say that they are firmly in the OT it makes no sense lol; but irregardless (which is not a word) i don't believe OSAS, and i'm not frightened of hell at all, and i don't do everything perfectly, either (but i know the remedy for that) so see that there are other possibilities there...um, i would be afeared o hell if i were to be, say, contemplating something nefarious or whatever i guess, sure. But really imo we are having a semantics discussion at the definition of "saved," which for you OSAS is intrinsic to, right?

 

[Helen]

[QUOTE="bbyrd009, post: 381193, member: 7326". But really imo we are having a semantics discussion at the definition of "saved," which for you OSAS is intrinsic to, right?[/QUOTE]

Very true. We are either saved or we are not!!

We probably don't totally understand each others , but on the other hand we do understand each other perfectly.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, which brings up another point, this perspective of believing that one person's path to salvation will correlate with someone else's; "if we both follow this handy checklist i happen to have, we will both be saved after that,"
which is also not Supported imo, at least not so strictly

iow we have beliefs that we don't share,
but neither of us needs to change any of our beliefs to be acceptable just like we are right now.
our faith comes from somewhere else

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009 Well said, I like that.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, it is all vanity is mostly what that means imo, and being present IRL is really what matters. i come here like i go to congregations now, to serve as a sacrifice. even if i'm still bad at it, terrible listener i guess, etc.
"serious" to me means new information that seems likely to bear fruit now, to me,
but there is no crime if serious to someone else is not what is serious to me anymore
we are told that we won't run out of towns to 'spread the word' in (once the perspective is understood)
"treasure is everywhere"

Serious to me is starting to mean when I have need of my Bible!
I might miss serious conversations one day. We'll see.

 

[bbyrd009]

@bbyrd009 Well said, I like that.

beliefs are essentially irrelevant, iow
how do you like me now

 

[Wormwood]

Im not quite following you. Not sure what you didn't understand.

I guess basically I am saying those who do Not believe in OSAS seem to stay Christians just because they are frightened of hell, if they don't do everything perfectly right, God will "un-save" them .
But those who believe in OSAS live and move free of that fear, they Trust God that their salvation is sure . Therefore their motivation is different.

You know that for 20 yrs of my christian life I believed that , I was always trying to be a better christian, more holy, more loving , more everything...but my motivation was through fear.
*I believe that our love for God cannot be free and even honest, all the time we believe that we have to stay perfect to be saved.
We can still mouth that we love God...but why do we...because we are scared, not because we are free.

Not sure I have explained it any better this time around either.
And no, I am not trying to change your mind. We each have to seek God for ourselves.

ByGrace,

I appreciate your post but I disagree with your comments. Certainly there are believers who may be fearful and live in guilt and anxiety, but in my experience, that happens for both OSAS camps and non-Calvinists. For OSAS it just comes across as, "Yes, I believe once saved always saved, but I am not sure I am "really" saved." Or, there are debates about "saving" faith. To me, such debates are nonsense. the Bible says nothing about "saving" faith. Either a person has faith, or they do not. Let me share the reasons why I disagree with OSAS and my position that, while rejecting OSAS, does not lead me to be continually fearful or seek unattainable perfection.

First, I disagree with OSAS because it is derived from a philosophical Calvinist system that is based on the concepts of total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace. The whole idea of "once saved always saved" is a byproduct of divine determinism. In other words, God predetermines those who are saved and lost, apart from anything they do. Faith is something God grants to the elect that he wants to save. As a result, if God has chosen a person to have faith, then he will certainly ensure they persevere in that faith since they were chosen beforehand and their salvation has nothing to do with them, but only God's predetermined selection of that individual.

Second, I disagree with OSAS because I simply do not see it taught anywhere in Scripture. Rather, I see many Scriptures that warn believers about drifting away and the dangers of sin that can harden hearts and cause people to wander from the faith. The only passages I ever see quoted on this topic are found in John's gospel and Romans 9. I don't believe either of these books teach what OSAS proponents suggest.

My view: I do not believe we are saved by works. Thus, I am not fearful or worried about living a perfect life. I am saved by grace through faith. I am joyful because I trust in God's grace. Yet I also understand that it is my faith that connects me with God's grace in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not merely an event, it is a person. If a person rejects Jesus, they do not have salvation, because Jesus is salvation. Jesus is eternal life. Now Christians can argue whether another Christian "really" knew Jesus before they rejected him and walked away. But to me, this seems pointless. The reality is, the Christian walk is often compared to the Israelites journey through the wilderness. Those who stopped trusting God, and were unsatisfied with his grace and provision fell in the desert. They had been set free from slavery and were covered in the blood of the covenant. Yet they fell because they ceased to believe. Likewise, I do not worry that I will sin and lose my salvation. My salvation comes by grace through faith. If my faith fails, then yes, I would be in eternal peril. That is why Scripture tells us our faith is of greater worth than gold and that God is at work continually to refine our faith. Faith, in the Greek, is almost always a present participle. Those words are often interpreted with -ing. "God so loved the world, that whoever believes (is believing) in him, should not perish but have everlasting life." Thus, it is not about momentary faith that has a particular quality (saving faith) but an enduring faith that holds to Jesus. As long as a person believes, they have nothing to worry. Yet if they get caught up in sin, begin to allow their heart to be hardened, and eventually reject and trample the precious blood of the covenant that bought them, yes...they can lose their salvation.

Rather than thinking of salvation as a ticket one receives to heaven, I like to think of salvation as a rescue mission.

Imagine a boy is lost on a mountain. He is surely going to die without intervention. A search party finds the boy, and that boy is in that moment..."saved." Yet they still have to journey down the mountain. As long as the boy trusts the search party and follows them, his salvation is sure...he has nothing to fear or worry about. However, suppose the boy begins to question the reliability of the search party and decides he is not lost at all and wants to go his own way. Well if the boy leaves the search party...though he was saved, now he is lost again. Losing his salvation had nothing to do with him tripping, falling or being an unpleasant companion and being cast out by the search party. It had to do with his lack of faith in the one who saved him and his very determined act to reject and turn from that savior. Thus, a person does not "lose" their salvation as one loses a coin. They lose it as a deliberate act of rejecting the Savior who bought them after being enlightened and receiving the Spirit of grace.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

The Lamb's Book of Life ...

Uh... Wrong!

I was speaking of the Book of Life.

Why are you speaking of something else?

 

[Taken]

Taken,
There are two churches.
The Church,,,the Body of Christ and
The church,,,as in an institution.

Jesus is the head of both.
If we want to be intellectually honest, we have to admit that the CC is the only
one that can be traced back to the time of The Way. Even the Orthodox church split away
In about 1,000 AD.

I'm not Catholic but this is simple history.
After all, it's the CC that Luther wanted to reform. There was no other, and I did mention the Orthodox Church.

I suppose anyone can write, and it becomes History.

So in "Catholic" "church" History -
Peter , a Jew, is the first Bishop of Rome., Which is a Popes Title., leading WHO to Christ? Jews or Gentiles?
....And did Peter know, that was "HIS TITLE"?
....And did Peter know, "HE" was the father?
....And where are the Scriptures telling Peter to establish a church in Rome? And for who ?
Jews or Gentiles?
...Paul, a Jew and Roman citizen, goes to Rome, and identifies many by name whom he met with. No mention of Peter.

Too much fabricated "history".

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

when did I came that you might have life, and more abundantly
turn into i can't wait to die and go to heaven
?

what benefits does believing OSAS convey?

When we review history -
Hebrews/Jews were given a method to obtain Salvation...
1) obedience to the Law
2) slaughter of animals,
It's body, they would eat.
It's (blood), atonement for sins.
3) repeat, repeat, repeat,
4) every Hebrew/Jew, CONTINUE, until the end of their natural life, and saving would be accomplished.

Jesus arrives -
His BODY given.
His BLOOD given.

His Body, His Blood, ( ends animal sacrifice, and animals blood for forgiveness of sin ).

Decision for individual men...
1) ignore any body or blood necessary for salvation to be effected FOR a man to be saved.
2) continue believing; obey the Law, animal sacrifice and animal blood, will suffice...for a man WHO, continues (endures) this method for all the days of his natural life.
3) accept Jesus' body and blood as the ultimate sacrifice and become immediately given Salvation, that Christ Keeps, the mans
Salvation secure For ever.
The man BEING Forgiven ONCE, SAVED ONCE and Forever.

This opposes being required to obey the law (TO receive Salvation); to be forgiven repeatedly; the use of animal bodies; the use of animal blood.

This was the significance of the destruction of the Building call a Temple...where only some were allowed INSIDE....where specificially the animal slaughter and blood took place.

A Temple/Chruch BUILDING, is no longer necessary, as a place where men can receive Salvation. Nor is a "ritual" (slaughter of animal body's roasting them, eating them, sprinkling it's blood) AND that ONLY, Church clergy could enter the little room, behind the curtain, where Gods holy place was, (holy of holies).

The "curtain" was ripped open.
Everyone can, Anytime, "can accept" Jesus' forgiveness, Jesus' body, (for a man's saving) Jesus' blood, (for a man's forgiveness) and have a one on one relationship "with" Him Forever. Saved Once and Forever.

The "KEY" is actually becoming SAVED via Jesus. Once that is accomplished it can Never be 'undone' or "lost".

Thus Once Saved Always Saved.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

ByGrace,

I appreciate your post but I disagree with your comments. Certainly there are believers who may be fearful and live in guilt and anxiety, but in my experience, that happens for both OSAS camps and non-Calvinists. For OSAS it just comes across as, "Yes, I believe once saved always saved, but I am not sure I am "really" saved." Or, there are debates about "saving" faith. To me, such debates are nonsense. the Bible says nothing about "saving" faith. Either a person has faith, or they do not. Let me share the reasons why I disagree with OSAS and my position that, while rejecting OSAS, does not lead me to be continually fearful or seek unattainable perfection.

First, I disagree with OSAS because it is derived from a philosophical Calvinist system that is based on the concepts of total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace. The whole idea of "once saved always saved" is a byproduct of divine determinism. In other words, God predetermines those who are saved and lost, apart from anything they do. Faith is something God grants to the elect that he wants to save. As a result, if God has chosen a person to have faith, then he will certainly ensure they persevere in that faith since they were chosen beforehand and their salvation has nothing to do with them, but only God's predetermined selection of that individual.

Second, I disagree with OSAS because I simply do not see it taught anywhere in Scripture. Rather, I see many Scriptures that warn believers about drifting away and the dangers of sin that can harden hearts and cause people to wander from the faith. The only passages I ever see quoted on this topic are found in John's gospel and Romans 9. I don't believe either of these books teach what OSAS proponents suggest.

My view: I do not believe we are saved by works. Thus, I am not fearful or worried about living a perfect life. I am saved by grace through faith. I am joyful because I trust in God's grace. Yet I also understand that it is my faith that connects me with God's grace in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not merely an event, it is a person. If a person rejects Jesus, they do not have salvation, because Jesus is salvation. Jesus is eternal life. Now Christians can argue whether another Christian "really" knew Jesus before they rejected him and walked away. But to me, this seems pointless. The reality is, the Christian walk is often compared to the Israelites journey through the wilderness. Those who stopped trusting God, and were unsatisfied with his grace and provision fell in the desert. They had been set free from slavery and were covered in the blood of the covenant. Yet they fell because they ceased to believe. Likewise, I do not worry that I will sin and lose my salvation. My salvation comes by grace through faith. If my faith fails, then yes, I would be in eternal peril. That is why Scripture tells us our faith is of greater worth than gold and that God is at work continually to refine our faith. Faith, in the Greek, is almost always a present participle. Those words are often interpreted with -ing. "God so loved the world, that whoever believes (is believing) in him, should not perish but have everlasting life." Thus, it is not about momentary faith that has a particular quality (saving faith) but an enduring faith that holds to Jesus. As long as a person believes, they have nothing to worry. Yet if they get caught up in sin, begin to allow their heart to be hardened, and eventually reject and trample the precious blood of the covenant that bought them, yes...they can lose their salvation.

Rather than thinking of salvation as a ticket one receives to heaven, I like to think of salvation as a rescue mission.

Imagine a boy is lost on a mountain. He is surely going to die without intervention. A search party finds the boy, and that boy is in that moment..."saved." Yet they still have to journey down the mountain. As long as the boy trusts the search party and follows them, his salvation is sure...he has nothing to fear or worry about. However, suppose the boy begins to question the reliability of the search party and decides he is not lost at all and wants to go his own way. Well if the boy leaves the search party...though he was saved, now he is lost again. Losing his salvation had nothing to do with him tripping, falling or being an unpleasant companion and being cast out by the search party. It had to do with his lack of faith in the one who saved him and his very determined act to reject and turn from that savior. Thus, a person does not "lose" their salvation as one loses a coin. They lose it as a deliberate act of rejecting the Savior who bought them after being enlightened and receiving the Spirit of grace.

I hope that makes sense.

Great post.
Great analogy.
Those of us who do not believe in eternal security are very much misunderstood. You're explanation is perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

I suppose anyone can write, and it becomes History.

So in "Catholic" "church" History -
Peter , a Jew, is the first Bishop of Rome., Which is a Popes Title., leading WHO to Christ? Jews or Gentiles?
....And did Peter know, that was "HIS TITLE"?
....And did Peter know, "HE" was the father?
....And where are the Scriptures telling Peter to establish a church in Rome? And for who ?
Jews or Gentiles?
...Paul, a Jew and Roman citizen, goes to Rome, and identifies many by name whom he met with. No mention of Peter.

Too much fabricated "history".

God Bless,
Taken

We weren't discussing the Pope.
We were discussing which church was around at the time of the Apostles.

I wasn't discussing Catholic history, I was discussing church history.

But, while we're here, the first Pope was elected in the 400's. Every bishop of Rome before then was given the title "Pope" so as to have uniformity. If a Catholic believes Peter was truly the first Pope, he is misinformed. Popes were really Bishops of Rome.

in fact, the first bishop of Rome to be contemporaneously referred to as Pope is Damasus I (366–84).[6]

source: History of the papacy - Wikipedia
(1.2)

 

[brakelite]

I guess basically I am saying those who do Not believe in OSAS seem to stay Christians just because they are frightened of hell, if they don't do everything perfectly right, God will "un-save" them .

It isn't what we do that may see us lost, but our loss of faith in He who has already 'done'.

But those who believe in OSAS live and move free of that fear, they Trust God that their salvation is sure . Therefore their motivation is different.

Could it be that OSAS could be motivated also by presumption?

You know that for 20 yrs of my christian life I believed that , I was always trying to be a better christian, more holy, more loving , more everything...but my motivation was through fear.

Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

It isn't what we do that may see us lost, but our loss of faith in He who has already 'done'.
Could it be that OSAS could be motivated also by presumption?

Perfect love not only casts out all fear, but motivates obedience.

John 14:15
John 15:14

 

[bbyrd009]

If it isn't what we do that may see us lost, then how can losing our faith matter?
losing your faith is doing something after all, right?

does this line of questioning seem trolly, or even like flip or heretical or anything, to someone?
Because i tell you that before you find Life, more abundantly--if you ever do--you will have cause to completely doubt all of your beliefs, and this "losing your faith" thing is going to come up again, since we are really only talking about losing a belief anyway wadr--at least almost always