Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

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rwb

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Yes but if we are to draw our doctrine from Scripture and what God inspired to write, then it is a physical mark. We already d this with pets and packages. I think it is Norway or Denmark where some companies have injected a small chip into peoples hands for their employment. They have to swipe their hand to get in, use the elevator, vending machines, access their computers etc.

God does not need a physical mark for He can see tehe heart, but Stan cannot so He needs a physical mark to identofy those who are HIs.

I don't deny the technology of chips implanted beneath human flesh already exist. What I do not believe is that the mark of Satan is a physical mark. I believe Satan in his desire to mimic Christ would mark his followers in like manner Christ seals His saints. Since Satan is said to come as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness, it doesn't make sense for him to physically mark his followers. That would after all destroy his deception.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 

WPM

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WOW do you need to go back and learn grammar and context.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

something has to die to be "resurrected" (ana-stasia= standing again). these souls bodies were restored to them and glorified! That is what teh bible teaches as written and not redefined by some people.

This is a heavenly scene. This is talking about the here-and-now. It is describing disembodied spirits. Where does it say that they have a new bodies?
 
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rwb

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WOW do you need to go back and learn grammar and context.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

something has to die to be "resurrected" (ana-stasia= standing again). these souls bodies were restored to them and glorified! That is what teh bible teaches as written and not redefined by some people.

WOW! Do you really need to learn what or rather WHO the first resurrection is? These saints were not resurrected after they died. They died because in life they had part in the resurrection life of Christ and have overcome the second death. What do you think Christ means when He says: I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (Jo 11:25)?

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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rwb

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This is a heavenly seen. This is talking about the hair a note. It is describing disembodied spirits. Where does it say that they have a new bodies?

Exactly! Those who interpret this as the first bodily resurrection have no understanding whatsoever of WHO the first resurrection truly is!
 
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Marty fox

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Well that is you redfining the bible with saying the bible didn't mean what was written plainly. You need to prove that. So you think the mark is not around today?

Teh bible clearly shows the mark is a physical stamp.


Of course it can! why would you think otherwise?

If one accepts the physical mark of the beast- they have rejected Jesus which is why people are damned.
But we can always repent since Paul rejected Jesus as God at one time and then repeated.

If Paul persecuted the church at one time and repented couldn’t someone repent after receiving the mark?

Of course they could according to John 3:16 since John 3:16 doesn’t say “unless they take the mark of the beast“ at the end.

My point is that we can always repent because the bible says so thus the mark can,t be physical because the bible can’t contradict itself. Thus the mark is more of a spiritual state than physical like a constant unrepentant devotion to the beast and doing his will.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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My point being these disembodied martyred souls did not come back to life again as some translations would have us believe. Why would a living (spirit) soul need to be brought back to life again since physical death has no power of the eternal spirit?
Come back to life? They had eternal life, they weren't dead. Let's look at the passage one more time:
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

John saw twenty four thrones in heaven. (Rev. 4:4) These men are likely the prophets, kings, apostles of Israel.
The souls beheaded were on earth. Here the physical bodies are referred to as souls - since souls (mind, will, emotions or a person) are not physical, hence they can't be decapitated. Their dead bodies came to life at the resurrection and reigned with Christ on earth. The dead shall be raised ... why is that difficult to understand.
They would not, and these eleven translations prove they were not brought back to life again, or bodily resurrected as some believe, because their living (spirit) soul left the body after death and ascended into heaven ALIVE.
These English translations say "they came to life" (popular ones in bold) :
AMP, CSB, CEB, CJB, DLNT, ESVUK, GNT, HCSB, PHILLIPS, LEB, MEV, MOUNCE, NABRE, NASB, NET, NIV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRAVCE, NRSVUE, NTE, RSV, RSVCE, TLV,
These versions say, "came backc to life":
ERV, EVB, ICB, ISV, NCV, VOICE
CEV says "they will come to life"
JUB says, " they shall live"
TLB says, " they had come to life again"
NLT says, " they all came to life again"
WE says, "they became alive again".

That's 35 to 11, the majority ... I must be board to pursue this argument.
 

Timtofly

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Do you really read what others write, or do you just ignore what is said and hoist falsehood on what others have said?

I've never said the first resurrection is the second birth. I've repeatedly said the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that mankind must have part in to overcome the second death. That is not a second birth, because the one partaking of the first resurrection of Christ is already physically alive. Do you like Nicodemus think that man must enter again into his mother's womb? That's why Christ explains to Nicodemus that mankind must be born again, not a second birth, but birth from above, birth through the Spirit. It's not a second birth it is a NEW birth. New, because before we are born of the Spirit of Christ we have not eternal life that comes through Him.


Once more you misrepresent what I believe and have stated. I've never said physical death is the first resurrection. Again, I maintain the first resurrection IS the resurrection of Christ that mankind while living on this earth MUST have part in to overcome the second death. Those martyred souls John sees alive in heaven are there because in life before they were killed, they had part in the first resurrection of Christ, so they have overcome the second death and will be in heaven with Christ until this time, John symbolizes a thousand years, shall be finished.


You've proven you have no understanding of WHO the first resurrection is! It is NOT a physical resurrection as you imagine. It is to be born from above, born of the Spirit. It is only by being found in Christ that man overcomes the second death. You have no understanding of what Christ means when He says, "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE"!
Do you misread what I write? The second birth is the spiritual birth into God's family. It is not a physical resurrection. No, there are not 2 physical births. One is spiritual and the other physical. A first resurrection is physical after one sheds Adam's dead corruptible physical body. It is not spiritually nor figuratively in Christ. Being in Christ is the second birth which is spiritual. The first resurrection is not spiritual in Christ, it is physical with Christ.

The first resurrection is not a who. The second birth is a who. We are born from above by the Holy Spirit and are in Christ. The second birth is God. The first resurrection is the physical restoration of being in the image of God. The second birth is being spiritually in God.

And you calling the first resurrection the resurrection of Christ to be "part of", is conflating the 2nd birth which is the spiritual birth in Christ.

Those beheaded souls are not martyred and not in heaven. That is not what John claims at all. That is your opinion of the passage based on a false assumption, John is talking about the first coming of Christ. They have not even been beheaded yet. You assume these souls represent all of the church. They do not symbolize the church in any way shape or form.

Your point: "You have no understanding of what Christ means when He says, "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE"!"

My response: You deny what that does mean. You claim I don't understand. I claim you deny what you claim I don't understand.

You have explained it is being in Christ. I point out it is physically being with Christ. Now point out what I am not understanding.

Now who is on target with Scripture? You claim this resurrection happened while they were alive. I point out this resurrection was after they were beheaded. What does Scripture say:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

They lived and reigned after being physically dead. You place the living and reigning while they are dead. Being physically dead for thousands of years is not that hidden of church teaching. I just don't think it biblically sound.
 

Timtofly

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What are you talking about that the mark comes after church 7th trumpet?

The 7th trumpet is at the end of our world on the judgement day

Revelation 11:18
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
Because Revelation 12 to Revelation 19 is the parenthetical describing events involving the 7th Trumpet. All these events are about the days of the 7th Trumpet.

In the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Satan will be allowed to set up the AoD.
 

Marty fox

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Because Revelation 12 to Revelation 19 is the parenthetical describing events involving the 7th Trumpet. All these events are about the days of the 7th Trumpet.

In the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Satan will be allowed to set up the AoD.
But the verse I posted tells us that the 7th trumpet is the last day on a judgment day happens
 

Timtofly

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But the verse I posted tells us that the 7th trumpet is the last day on a judgment day happens
That verse does not say it is the last day. There are still 42 months, if Satan is allowed to set up his Babylonian empire.

If you have proof other than personal opinion that Revelation is written in reverse order, then the 7th Trumpet starts sounding prior to the events in chapter 13.
 

rwb

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Come back to life? They had eternal life, they weren't dead. Let's look at the passage one more time:
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

John saw twenty four thrones in heaven. (Rev. 4:4) These men are likely the prophets, kings, apostles of Israel.
The souls beheaded were on earth. Here the physical bodies are referred to as souls - since souls (mind, will, emotions or a person) are not physical, hence they can't be decapitated. Their dead bodies came to life at the resurrection and reigned with Christ on earth. The dead shall be raised ... why is that difficult to understand.

These English translations say "they came to life" (popular ones in bold) :
AMP, CSB, CEB, CJB, DLNT, ESVUK, GNT, HCSB, PHILLIPS, LEB, MEV, MOUNCE, NABRE, NASB, NET, NIV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRAVCE, NRSVUE, NTE, RSV, RSVCE, TLV,
These versions say, "came backc to life":
ERV, EVB, ICB, ISV, NCV, VOICE
CEV says "they will come to life"
JUB says, " they shall live"
TLB says, " they had come to life again"
NLT says, " they all came to life again"
WE says, "they became alive again".

That's 35 to 11, the majority ... I must be board to pursue this argument.

What argument? We're saying the same thing! My reply was in response this comment from you, specifically what I highlighted, "I guess you Amillennials just symbolize away who the Beast is, what the mark on their foreheads was and how many of these beheaded souls came to life and reigned with Christ? And where did they reign exactly and when did any of this happen?" First you ask how many of these souls came to life, then your next post you say they don't need to come to life because they are already alive. Make up your mind because you're a little confusing???

Since you asked "how many of these beheaded souls CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ" I made the point that sometimes the translation makes us believe these martyred faithful saints had to come to life again. So, I quoted from eleven translations that make it clearer that they were beheaded but still alive and they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, symbolized a (not ONE) thousand years. The translations that make it appear these martyred saints must be made to live again is one of the reasons so many believe the first resurrection is physical and seem not to have understanding of the fact that the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ one must have part of in life to be alive after death and reign with Christ in heaven until this TIME, symbolized a (not ONE) thousand years comes to an end.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I don't deny the technology of chips implanted beneath human flesh already exist. What I do not believe is that the mark of Satan is a physical mark. I believe Satan in his desire to mimic Christ would mark his followers in like manner Christ seals His saints. Since Satan is said to come as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness, it doesn't make sense for him to physically mark his followers. That would after all destroy his deception.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Then you deny the very words God used in His inspired Word. The word mark for the mark of the beast is charagma- and it is a physical stamp or imprint. That is just the way it is.

And you seem to forget that when teh mark is established people are going to openly worship Satan. That is because God will have sent the strong delusion so people will believe a lie!

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
 

Ronald Nolette

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This is a heavenly scene. This is talking about the here-and-now. It is describing disembodied spirits. Where does it say that they have a new bodies?

Rev. 20:4 and 1 Cor. 15. Comeon now. Don't be like the JW's and redefine the word resurrection.

And no it is talking about things to come as John wrote! The mark has not been issued and people have not been beheaded for refusing the mark.

And if it is a present reality, what is the mark today and where are people being beheaded for refusing to take the mark???????????????
 

Ronald Nolette

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WOW! Do you really need to learn what or rather WHO the first resurrection is? These saints were not resurrected after they died. They died because in life they had part in the resurrection life of Christ and have overcome the second death. What do you think Christ means when He says: I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (Jo 11:25)?

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Jesus is the Resurrection, But Revelation is not talking about Jesus resurrection, but the resurrection of the dead Jesus promised. Just like after the last Satanic rebellion- all the dead will be rejoined with their bodies to be cast into the lake of fire. You have to learn to keep things in context. Every time the word resurrection appears, it will not refer automatically back to Jesus' resurrection. You need to relearn context and find out the who, what, when, where, and why of whom the passage is speaking of.

Bring this passage to any English teacher. They will tell you it is talking about those who had died for refusing to take the mark.
 

WPM

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Rev. 20:4 and 1 Cor. 15. Comeon now. Don't be like the JW's and redefine the word resurrection.

And no it is talking about things to come as John wrote! The mark has not been issued and people have not been beheaded for refusing the mark.

And if it is a present reality, what is the mark today and where are people being beheaded for refusing to take the mark???????????????

The mark of God and the mark of the beast are marks of spiritual ownership that have been around from the beginning.

Connecting Rev. 20:4 and 1 Cor. 15 is wrong. Rev 20 takes us back to the first resurrection and Christ's defeat of Satan and the beginning of the great commission and the enlightenment of the Gentiles.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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But we can always repent since Paul rejected Jesus as God at one time and then repeated.

If Paul persecuted the church at one time and repented couldn’t someone repent after receiving the mark?

Of course they could according to John 3:16 since John 3:16 doesn’t say “unless they take the mark of the beast“ at the end.

My point is that we can always repent because the bible says so thus the mark can,t be physical because the bible can’t contradict itself. Thus the mark is more of a spiritual state than physical like a constant unrepentant devotion to the beast and doing his will.

The answer is NO! The bible makes it clear that if one takes the mark- they are doomed forever! God, not us or our human reasoning makes the rules!

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


The tribulation period is a unique time in human history. gods' patience has run out on sinful humanity and He is pouring His wrath on an unbelieving world.

It will be 7 years of agony with the last 3 1/2 years being extraordinarily tortuous.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The mark of God and the mark of the beast are marks of spiritual ownership that have been around from the beginning.

ConnectingvRev. 20:4 and 1 Cor. 15 is wrong. Rev 20 takes us back to the first resurrection and Christ's defeat of Satan and the beginning of the great commission and the enlightenment of the Gentiles.

Maybe you should get more biblically specific!

God seals His servants- sphragizo. Satan marks his servants -charagma. The words have differing definitions and you cannot interchange the two, though they have similarities.

I wish we could have more bible discussion and not corrective grammar lessons. Because it is your poor use of grammar that keeps you drawing erroneous conclusions about Gods seal and Satans marki.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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What argument? We're saying the same thing! My reply was in response this comment from you, specifically what I highlighted, "I guess you Amillennials just symbolize away who the Beast is, what the mark on their foreheads was and how many of these beheaded souls came to life and reigned with Christ? And where did they reign exactly and when did any of this happen?" First you ask how many of these souls came to life, then your next post you say they don't need to come to life because they are already alive. Make up your mind because you're a little confusing???

Since you asked "how many of these beheaded souls CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ" I made the point that sometimes the translation makes us believe these martyred faithful saints had to come to life again. So, I quoted from eleven translations that make it clearer that they were beheaded but still alive and they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, symbolized a (not ONE) thousand years. The translations that make it appear these martyred saints must be made to live again is one of the reasons so many believe the first resurrection is physical and seem not to have understanding of the fact that the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ one must have part of in life to be alive after death and reign with Christ in heaven until this TIME, symbolized a (not ONE) thousand years comes to an end.
You hold an Amillennial view, I do not. I have read not only your responses to me but others as well. You have some truth mixed in with (what I believe) confusion and misinterpretation. Of course, you see all of us in a similar way, confused, mixed up. We are all reading the same scriptures and seeing them differently.

Your claims and my comments:

YOU
: Those beheaded souls (in Rev. 20) did not have their heads cut off!
ME: Sounds like you are contradicting scripture.

YOU: In Rev. 20, no mention of righteous, resurrected saints, only the dead.
ME: VERSE 4 says the souls were beheaded for their witness of Christ and the Word and " they came alive again".

YOU: The martyred Church already lived. They had partaken in Christ's resurrection while they were still alive. They reigned with Christ in heaven.
Me: Spiritually we are b irn again and when we die we go to be with Christ, but we don't reign with Him up there. His physical reign will be on earth, with all nations under Him. They aren't under His reign now. Yes God is sovereign and in control, but not everyone on earth is a believer. And the Millennial Kingdom will have the entire world composed if Christians only - ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

YOU: Every human will be physically resurrected when Christ returns @ the GWT judgement.
ME: That is the Second Resurrection. The Church will be resurrection during the Great Tribulation (that I believe we are already in).

YOU: 1000 years is symbolic for time already served with Christ in heaven.
ME: NOPE

YOU: Jesus will not walk on earth again!!
ME: YES He will, scripture states His feet will stand I Jerusalem and He will physically reign, up close and personal, be worshipped , visited by nations of the world daily, weekly, annually _ on the throne of David for 1000 years.

YOU: 1st Resurrection was Christ. The Church partakes in His resurrection (spiritually) which is how we are born again and enter heaven when we die.
ME: I AGREE. But concerning the Church, (1 Cor. 15:23 & Rev. 20:5-6 say otherwise)

YOU: The physical body of those of faith is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible and re- united with our spirits with Christ when He comes at the GWT Judgment.
ME: Only disagreement there is with the time of His return, His Second Coming before His Millennial Kingdom.
 

Marty fox

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The answer is NO! The bible makes it clear that if one takes the mark- they are doomed forever! God, not us or our human reasoning makes the rules!

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


The tribulation period is a unique time in human history. gods' patience has run out on sinful humanity and He is pouring His wrath on an unbelieving world.

It will be 7 years of agony with the last 3 1/2 years being extraordinarily tortuous.

Can the bible contradict itself? Because your view just contradicted John 3:16
 

Marty fox

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That verse does not say it is the last day. There are still 42 months, if Satan is allowed to set up his Babylonian empire.

If you have proof other than personal opinion that Revelation is written in reverse order, then the 7th Trumpet starts sounding prior to the events in chapter 13.

So you believe that the 42 months comes after the judging of the dead and the rewarding of the saints