Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

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Ronald David Bruno

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This is where you err. Those translations make no sense because when man while alive partakes of the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection, THEY NEVER DIE

This is where you err. Those translations make no sense because when man while alive partakes of the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection, THEY NEVER DIE! Since physical death has no power over those who have died as Christians, why would they need to come to life AGAIN? They would not! That is plain and simply interpreting with a preconceived belief that the first resurrection is physical. It is NOT!
Spiritually, they are alive in Christ, but their bodies are still in the grave. Jesus' body was resurrected. Christians have not experienced a bodily resurrection. You can visit graveyards all over the world.
So this your problem, you identify the spiritual transformation ( being born again) as our resurrection. It is not. Where is your eternal body with multi- dimensional abilities to appear, disappear, fly, to will yourself in and out of the spiritual realm, take on physical form and and walk on earth, then ascend and vanish like angels - like Jesus did??? We have not been fully redeemed yet. The folks in heaven are waiting to receive their resurrected eternal bodies and frankly I am too.
The last trumpet has not been blown! We will be changed in a twinkling of an eye - all of us at the same moment.
I gave you eleven translations where the translators did not allow preconceived belief to influence their translation of Scripture.
And those are not in conflict with the 35 scriptures I gave. It is a prophecy of a future time. So "lived again and reigned" means the same as "came to life again and reigned", both referring to a future time that hasn't happened.
Because they were faithful unto death while alive, physical death is not the end for them, it is the beginning of spiritual life in heaven with Christ
Absolutely.
 

rwb

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I have discussed topic many times and it is getting tedious to repeat myself over and over so here is the thread. In it you will find the answers to many of you questions.
You say:
"The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)"

The Word of God says:

Exodus 3:8 (KJV) And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Exodus 23:27-30 (KJV) I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

Numbers 23:19 (KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joshua 21:43-44 (KJV)
And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Joshua 21:45 (KJV) There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV)
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

1 Kings 8:56 (KJV)
Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

All of these passages from Scripture tell us the covenant of land God made to Israel through Abraham Isaac, and Jacob was entirely fulfilled. Nothing of what the Lord promised was left unfulfilled according to the Bible. The Lord kept His promises and Israel could have remained on the promised land forever IF they kept the covenant He commanded of them. They did not! We can't go back and re-visit the covenant of land promises as though the Lord God did not fulfill His promises to them.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Christ did that when He came to earth a man, but they rejected Him. They looked for the promised Messiah to come and usher in a physical Kingdom upon this earth. They were wrong, just as you are wrong to think that Christ will come to set up His Kingdom on this earth. Christ came with His Kingdom, but His Kingdom now in this world is not physical, but spiritual. The only way for mankind to know and enter His Kingdom now is to partake of Christ's resurrection life, "Ye must be born again". He is the first resurrection and the life, and whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die. Because the Kingdom of Christ now is within you, through the Holy Spirit. When man is born of the Spirit of Christ, the eternal life we receive is spiritual, not physical. That's why in death we go as living (spirit) soul to be with the Lord in heaven. We don't have to come to life again! If we are in Him, we are already eternally alive through His Spirit in us.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV)
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
' ...Thy kingdom come, thy will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..."
"The meek shall inherit the earth". That hasn't happened.
You still are not addressing that fact that this whole world is falling apart. That it is not and has never been in peace and harmony with all nations glorify and worshipping God, with the knowledge of the LORD IN EVERY HEART!
The whole idea of judgment during the Great Tribulation is to rid the planet of evil, false religions, Satan and his horde and unify all peoples. Hasn't happened yet. Christians are in His kingdom, but that us is not yet on earth.
Right, Jesus my kingdom is not of this world. When He returns, He will reign over all the earth.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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You say:
"The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)"

The Word of God says:

Exodus 3:8 (KJV) And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Exodus 23:27-30 (KJV) I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

Numbers 23:19 (KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joshua 21:43-44 (KJV)
And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Joshua 21:45 (KJV) There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV)
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

1 Kings 8:56 (KJV)
Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

All of these passages from Scripture tell us the covenant of land God made to Israel through Abraham Isaac, and Jacob was entirely fulfilled. Nothing of what the Lord promised was left unfulfilled according to the Bible. The Lord kept His promises and Israel could have remained on the promised land forever IF they kept the covenant He commanded of them. They did not! We can't go back and re-visit the covenant of land promises as though the Lord God did not fulfill His promises to them.
Really, the boundaries of the land God gave them contained about 300,000 square miles. They only took possession of 10 percent of that, because they failed to obey. And how much do they have today? They only possess 8630 sq. miles today. This covenant of land was never fully realized. It was given to them, but they did not take it. There is no conflict with what I am saying and scripture. During the time of Joshua 21, God kept his promise, the land was given to them and they had no enemies in it - THEY JUST NEVER COMPLETELY OCCUPIED IT NOR TOOK IT ALL. And the covenant was to last to the end of time. So is hasn't been fulfilled.
They will possess that land soon - during the MK.
 
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rwb

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Spiritually, they are alive in Christ, but their bodies are still in the grave. Jesus' body was resurrected. Christians have not experienced a bodily resurrection. You can visit graveyards all over the world.
So this your problem, you identify the spiritual transformation ( being born again) as our resurrection. It is not. Where is your eternal body with multi- dimensional abilities to appear, disappear, fly, to will yourself in and out of the spiritual realm, take on physical form and and walk on earth, then ascend and vanish like angels - like Jesus did??? We have not been fully redeemed yet. The folks in heaven are waiting to receive their resurrected eternal bodies and frankly I am too.
The last trumpet has not been blown! We will be changed in a twinkling of an eye - all of us at the same moment.

I could not identify spiritual re-birth as resurrection life if the Bible did not say we who WERE DEAD have been quickened (MADE ALIVE) in Christ. But the Bible explicitly says this. Paul says we were dead in sins spiritually until we were made alive in Christ by grace through faith. If that is not spiritual resurrection that overcomes the second death, I don't know what is.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

You have a very strange understanding of what spiritual life entails. Where on earth do you get this bizarre understanding that in spiritual life we suddenly have supernatural powers? To be as the angels or like them simply means after death we are spirit beings in heaven. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom in heaven. It is a habitation for spirit beings, i.e. angels, Christ, believers after physical death. (1Cor 15:50)

Of course the last/seventh trumpet has not yet sounded. I agree our bodies will not be resurrected and changed until it does.
And those are not in conflict with the 35 scriptures I gave. It is a prophecy of a future time. So "lived again and reigned" means the same as "came to life again and reigned", both referring to a future time that hasn't happened.

Here is exactly what John writes regarding those martyred in heaven. Where in his wording do you find the word "again" or "must come to life"?

"and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"...."and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This is not future prophesy; John sees those who HAVE LIVED and HAVED REIGNED with Christ in TIME which is exactly what a thousand years symbolizes.

Compare these living souls with vs. 6, whom John writes are blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power, "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Both vs 4 and vs 6 tell us the faithful shall be with Christ in time (a thousand years). But vs 4 is of those who have already died and are spiritually with the Lord in heaven and had already lived and died. But vs 6 speaks of those who will also be priests of God and of Christ and shall also reign with Him in time; i.e. a thousand symbolic years. John writes separately of the faithful dead, and those who will be faithful in life by having part in the first resurrection; i.e the resurrection of Christ in life (a thousand years). Understanding these two verses together tells us that in time, a thousand years, we must live and reign with Christ by having part in the first resurrection of spiritual life from spiritual death. The first resurrection must be partaken in life and is not physical. In life we are blessed and holy, having partaken of Christ, and in Him have overcome the second death.
 

rwb

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Really, the boundaries of the land God gave them contained about 300,000 square miles. They only took possession of 10 percent of that, because they failed to obey. And how much do they have today? They only possess 8630 sq. miles today. This covenant of land was never fully realized. It was given to them, but they did not take it. There is no conflict with what I am saying and scripture. During the time of Joshua 21, God kept his promise, the land was given to them and they had no enemies in it - THEY JUST NEVER COMPLETELY OCCUPIED IT NOR TOOK IT ALL. And the covenant was to last to the end of time. So is hasn't been fulfilled.
They will possess that land soon - during the MK.

Should I believe you, or should I believe what is clearly written in Scripture? The land covenant was only forever IF they kept covenant with God. They did not, so they lost the promised land God had given them. Why did they not obey God, as He commanded them to? The land gift was with the stipulation of faithfulness, obedience to the Law, and that they should not commit idolatry. You can't say God did not keep all that He promised them when the Bible several times says explicitly that God kept every promise He made to them. It was not God, but they who disobeyed, the reason they did not inherit the land forever.

The millennial Kingdom you are fixated on coming upon this earth, is not Biblical! We are currently living in time, which the thousand years symbolizes. Once the seventh angel begins to sound there shall be no more time.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel begins to sound the Kingdom of God will be complete, the mystery that the Gospel will bring Gentiles of faith into the Kingdom of God with faithful Jews will be finished. There will be no more time, or no more delay. Satan will have his "little season" to gather Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristians) surround the saints still alive on the earth at this time, the saints will be raptured, and God will send down fire from heaven to destroy all that is left alive on this earth. There will not be another ONE thousand years of time on this earth because once this earth passes away there will be a new heaven and new earth.
 

rwb

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' ...Thy kingdom come, they will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..."
"The meek shall inherit the earth". That hasn't happened.
You still are not addressing that fact that this whole world is falling apart. That it is not and has never been in peace and harmony with all nations glorify and worshipping God, with the knowledge of the LORD IN EVERY HEART!
The whole idea of judgment during the Great Tribulation is to rid the planet of evil, false religions, Satan and his horde and unify all peoples. Hasn't happened yet. Christians are in His kingdom, but that us is not yet on earth.
Right, Jesus my kingdom is not of this world. When He returns, He will reign over all the earth.

Of course we pray "thy Kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Why do we pray this? Would we pray that for this earth that is not eternal, but destined to be burned up? We pray that while on this earth because we look forward to the Kingdom being complete, when we will inherit the new earth, where there will be no more death, no more sin, suffering, sorrow or pain, and only righteousness will dwell there.

The Lord has never promised in this world we would find peace. He repeatedly warns the exact opposite. Satan was not bound in the pit to bring peace and harmony to this world. He was bound so the Gospel would go unto all the nations of the world and Gentiles too would hear, and by grace through faith believe, being made spiritually alive through the Spirit, and overcome the fear of death Satan was once able to hold them in bondage to.

When speaking to His disciples (every believer) He says that when the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world the Church (believers) must endure "great tribulation". We find this truth simply by observing redemptive history. There has never before been a time that will never be again where any single entity on earth has been called to endure great tribulation the Church has endured, and still remains and is still growing. That's what Christ meant when He said, "I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18) The Church, through great tribulation has endured and will continue to endure because with each attack the Lord has shortened the time (days) or no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the elect no tribulation coming upon the Church has thus far been able to endure.

Matthew 24:13-14 (KJV) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Should I believe you, or should I believe what is clearly written in Scripture? The land covenant was only forever IF they kept covenant with God. They did not, so they lost the promised land God had given them. Why did they not obey God, as He commanded them to? The land gift was with the stipulation of faithfulness, obedience to the Law, and that they should not commit idolatry. You can't say God did not keep all that He promised them when the Bible several times says explicitly that God kept every promise He made to them. It was not God, but they who disobeyed, the reason they did not inherit the land forever.

The millennial Kingdom you are fixated on coming upon this earth, is not Biblical! We are currently living in time, which the thousand years symbolizes. Once the seventh angel begins to sound there shall be no more time.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel begins to sound the Kingdom of God will be complete, the mystery that the Gospel will bring Gentiles of faith into the Kingdom of God with faithful Jews will be finished. There will be no more time, or no more delay. Satan will have his "little season" to gather Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristians) surround the saints still alive on the earth at this time, the saints will be raptured, and God will send down fire from heaven to destroy all that is left alive on this earth. There will not be another ONE thousand years of time on this earth because once this earth passes away there will be a new heaven and new earth.
Okay, time to end the conversion. We have come to an impasse, actually I knew this would happen before I started. I just don't know what compels me to pursue a conversation with an Amillennial anymore? See ya on the other side brother!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Have any hard biblical evidence for that?
Sure.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

In this passage John sees the souls of physically dead believers. He makes it very clear that they are conscious.

Then there is Luke 16:19-31 where Jesus talked about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. The rich man was in Hades and was conscious.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well there is only one new covenant spoken of in Scripture, it is found in Jer. 31.

Teh last supper did not make a covenant. The blood Jesus shed was the price paid to enable the covenant.

Otherwise we have 2 new covenants.
Yes, so the new covenant was established long ago by the blood of Christ. Glad we can agree on that.

You had previously said "Can I ask you specifically what new covenant you are referring to ?", so that gave the impression that you believed in more than one new covenant.
 

Truth7t7

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They will possess that land soon - during the MK.
Ron you avoid the truth of scripture below like the plague "Why"?

No such thing as a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
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rwb

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Okay, time to end the conversion. We have come to an impasse, actually I knew this would happen before I started. I just don't know what compels me to pursue a conversation with an Amillennial anymore? See ya on the other side brother!

I would say the same thing about having these discussions with millennialists, but truth is I am committed to expose error and promote Biblical truths, especially to those who profess faith but have been deceived by lies. I too once embraced millennialism, but I was challenged by a loving brother to search for myself what is true and what is error. In my search I discovered millennialists force great contradiction into the Word of God. I could not live with the Word of God that contradicts, because truly that would mean it is not the Word of God after all. I pray that you too through your study of Scripture might come to realize the many contradictions your doctrine (of which some I have shown you), forces into the Word of God. May God richly bless you as you search the Scriptures for truth.
 

rwb

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For anyone who cares to read a concise theological argument and presentation of the Millennial Kingdom.


4.11.5 - Millennial Reign of Messiah​

The book of Revelation describes saints who are resurrected at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.

Since the very first sentence of the article establishes the error the article is built upon, it would be a waste of time to consider it. The book of Revelation doesn't even mention a millennial reign of Christ. John writes that he sees living (spirit) souls ALIVE in time (which he writes as a thousand years) who were martyred for their faith. John makes no mention of some imagined millennial reign of the promised Messiah. Not in this age or the age to come, because this age already about two thousand years will end with His coming the second time, and the age to come will be forever.


 
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Ronald Nolette

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No it applies to the Day of the Lord. 2 Peter 3:10.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Now what Scripture lines up with and declares the Second Coming as this thief in the night moment?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Now explain how people are still alive on earth after this event, described in the above verses, and it is still Armageddon where no human is left alive, and is not even the same event?

The only similarity is heaven was opened. All the redeemed were already assembled. No one currently on earth at this point will be redeemed or rescued. Armageddon is not the Lord protecting Jerusalem. This is taking back the throne after Satan's 42 months.

Well the final event when the Lord returns is what is called the Battle of Armageddon! There will be survivors of unbelievers and believers. That is what the gathering of Matt. 24 is all about! Teh righteous enter the millenial kingdom, the lost enter the place of torment to await the lake of fire.

Just because you have a hard time imagining it doesn't make it false. It is true no matter whether we can rationalize it or not.
 

dad

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Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians
2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

This does not take away a future physical resurrection at the end of our world.
It seems obvious that whatever Paul is talking about is different than when we actually are raised from the dead (as well as raised in new bodies if we happen to be alive at the time)

In Rev 20 that is after the tribulation started and the mark etc. That is future, and nothing that the verses you cited refers to.
 

Ronald Nolette

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My understanding of grammar is just fine. However, you are not making sense! How does the first resurrection, Christ's resurrection, that saves us keep those who are saved in Him from being saved after they die? We are eternally secure in Christ because we have part in His resurrection life. Therefore, when we are bodily resurrected after time shall be no more, we are made whole again with immortal and incorruptible physical body of flesh and spirit = complete living soul.

Yes we are!

but with your scenario that the first resurrection of REv. 20 only refers to Jesus alone- then the passage says that those who are not part of the first resurrection (only Jesus according to you) , the second death has authority over them!
In proper grammar the context which includes verse 6 must also be read in conjunction with verses 4-5 and the rest of the chapter. Verse 6 calls those who have part in the first resurrection and shall live with Christ a thousand years blessed and holy. Who has ever heard of the DEAD who are the DEAD because they have no part in the first resurrection blessed and holy? No one has, because "the DEAD" are NOT blessed and holy. Looking back at verse 5 we read the DEAD will not live again until the thousand years expire. Why? Because the thousand years are not given for the resurrection of the DEAD, but for those who have LIVED and have REIGNED, and also for those who SHALL LIVE with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. IOW the verse is telling us the thousand years, symbolizing TIME is for the first resurrection when one must have part to have everlasting life.
No your grammar is not fine. Go back and look at verse five again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is yo9u who do not make sense.

The passage is clear- the first dead are part of the first resurrection. Who are these first resurrected? Those who did not take the mark, etc. It is when they are resurrected they live and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years! It is after those 1,000 years that the rest of the dead are resurrected. That is what God inspired to be written.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yes, so the new covenant was established long ago by the blood of Christ. Glad we can agree on that.

You had previously said "Can I ask you specifically what new covenant you are referring to ?", so that gave the impression that you believed in more than one new covenant.

No I belie3ve in only one- found in Jeremiah 31. Jesus blood is not a covenant , but the sacrifice that confirms the covenant. And the covenant as written has not gone into effect yet. It has nothing to do with Gentiles at all!

We are beneficiaries of what Messiah did on Calvary, but the New Covenant is not for us. those who think so, do so only because they redefine the covenant to make gentiles fit in.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No I belie3ve in only one- found in Jeremiah 31.
Good.

Jesus blood is not a covenant , but the sacrifice that confirms the covenant.
Of course.

And the covenant as written has not gone into effect yet. It has nothing to do with Gentiles at all!
Now you've gone completely astray. Under what other covenant besides the new covenant can Gentiles be saved? The new covenant is all about Jesus sacrificing Himself so that people could be saved and have their sins forgiven. He died for Gentiles, too, right?

Have you never read this:

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Paul was talking to Gentiles here and telling them to take part in the Lord's supper which includes the cup representing "the new covenant in my blood". Why would he tell Gentiles to do this if the new covenant didn't apply to them?

Then there is this:

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Again, Paul is speaking to Gentiles here and he told them "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant". Why would he tell them that if the new covenant doesn't apply to Gentiles? Of course it does. You are contradicting Paul by saying that the new covenant isn't in effect yet. That's like saying that Jesus hasn't died for the sins of the world yet.

We are beneficiaries of what Messiah did on Calvary, but the New Covenant is not for us.
This is unbelievably sad for a Christian to say this. You don't understand that the new covenant was put into effect by the blood of Christ and I'm sure you agree that He died for us!

those who think so, do so only because they redefine the covenant to make gentiles fit in.
Tell that to the apostle Paul. He's the one who taught that the Gentiles are under the new covenant.
 
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covenantee

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No I belie3ve in only one- found in Jeremiah 31. Jesus blood is not a covenant , but the sacrifice that confirms the covenant. And the covenant as written has not gone into effect yet. It has nothing to do with Gentiles at all!

We are beneficiaries of what Messiah did on Calvary, but the New Covenant is not for us. those who think so, do so only because they redefine the covenant to make gentiles fit in.
Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Was it for His disciples?

Thanks be to God that Jesus was not a dispensationalist.
 
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