Our arguments are based on historical FACT! Supporting historical truth does not mean supporting Preterist doctrine. Full Preterist don't teach the cross ended the Old Covenant and ushered in the new as I and Covenantee do. They believe AD 70 was when the Old Covenant ended, which denies the efficacy of the cross and resurrection.
Preterism misrepresents Scripture
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Our arguments are based on historical FACT! Supporting historical truth does not mean supporting Preterist doctrine. Full Preterist don't teach the cross ended the Old Covenant and ushered in the new as I and Covenantee do. They believe AD 70 was when the Old Covenant ended, which denies the efficacy of the cross and resurrection.
Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Ezekiel 32
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the Lord.
Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come.
None of the preceding passages is about the Second Coming.
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The metaphors in Matthew 24:29 are identical or similar to those in the other passages.
None of the other passages is about the Second Coming.
Why is Matthew 24:29 necessarily about the Second Coming?
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I agree the prophesy of Old is not about the second coming of Christ. It is prophesy that shall come to pass during His first coming. The prophets of Old write this is "the Day of the Lord". The Day of the Lord has both a beginning and an end that came with the first Advent of Christ and will end when the seventh angel begins to sound that time given the church on earth to proclaim the Gospel shall be no longer. That's when the mystery hidden, now revealed, that Gentiles will complete the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be finished. This time is symbolized a thousand years in Rev 20. This equates to time that began with Christ's coming to earth a man to usher in the spiritual Kingdom of God, to the end of this symbolic time. Called the Day of the Lord, the age/era of the Gospel.
Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The difference between Matthew and the Old Covenant prophesy is that Matthew lived to see the prophetic words of the prophets beginning to be fulfilled through the advent of Christ. So, Matthew doesn't write of the Day of the Lord that was coming from Old, Matthew writes of the last days of the Day of the Lord when Christ shall come again.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Truth7t7
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Then who are those seen below "Looking Up" being eyewitnesses of the Lord's second coming on this earth?
Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Think about what you're saying here. I couldn't disagree more. They are synonyms. That is a fact. You said yourself they both are "the end". Words that share the same definitions are synonyms. Would it be wrong to use the word "telos" in combination with the word "aion" for some reason if someone wanted to refer to the end of the age using those words?
But, "telos" is used to refer to the end of the world (without including the word translated as the world or age) a few times. You try to deny that, but I'm not buying your arguments at all that you're trying to make regarding verses like 1 Corinthians 15:24. Is there some grammar rule that would prevent the word "telos" from being used with the word "aion" if someone wanted to refer to the end of the world/age using those words?
What end was Jesus asked about? The end of the age.
Please look at this verse:
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And then look at this passage:
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In verse 3 the word "coming" is translated from the Greek word "parousia" while in verses 27 and 30 it is translated from the word "erchomai". Here is a case where Jesus used different words as synonyms when referring to His second coming. He proceeded to use the word "parousia" in relation to His second coming in verses 37 and 39 as well. And He proceeded to use the word "erchomai" to refer to His second coming in verses 42-44, 46 and 48 as well as in Matthew 25 verses 6, 10-11, 13, 19, 27 and 31.
So, this proves that Jesus did use synonyms interchangeably at times and I see no reason why that can't be the case in regards to the two words that mean "the end" as well.
Because it appears that He had no problem using synonyms when He felt like it. Apparently, when He wanted to use the phrase "end of the age" He had preference for using one word and when He just wanted to refer to the end without specifying that He was speaking of the end of the age, He apparently preferred using the word "telos" instead. Again, He used synonyms interchangeably in other cases, as I showed, so why not in this case as well?
I believe the context of what Jesus was saying was not in relation to the gospel being preached to the known world, but of the gospel being preached everywhere, including the places that were not yet known about back then.
I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now, so I'll have to look at it another time.
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It's not a question of whether it would be wrong or right. It is simply that the Greek word "telos" is always simply "the end" of whatever is in view in the Bible. Where "the end of the world" is always defined from the Greek word "syntéleia".
I don't believe "telos" ever refers to the "end of the world". I've already shown why I believe you have not properly understood what Paul is speaking of in 1Cor 15:24. "The end" is not of the world, but the end of physical life. You must assume what is not written. I'm not selling any arguments. I am simply telling you what I believe regarding these two Greek words.
The disciples were asking for a SIGN of His coming. It would be through the sign that they would know "and of the end of the world."
You're simply assuming what is not written.
I know what you believe. But again, you're making assumptions from silence.
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"They" is AKA, the inhabitants of the earth per "every eye shall see him" at the return of Christ.
"Your" in verse 28 is when these signs in verse 25 begin to happen.
You must think this all occurs in a single day, not 7 years.
Here is an example of "the end" that shall come that is not the end of the world, but the end of TIME for proclaiming the Gospel to the world for a witness unto all nations.
Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
As I've said in discussions with you in the past, the sounding of the seventh angel begins to sound in the DAYS (more than one day), signifying TIME symbolized a thousand years, given the Church on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is preached, shall be no longer. There is still more time given for Satan's "little season" after these days. Then very quickly, suddenly, without warning Christ will appear in the clouds and the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as fire of God comes down from heaven and then comes the final end.
Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
I find these forums necessarily become repeating over again and again things we thought we had already made clear. When this becomes necessary for me, I try to re-state my replies with more Biblical proof-text or say the same thing just slightly changing how to explain what I meant. This has proven to be somewhat effective for me, and not always a waste of time.
There's a difference between the nearness of Christ' coming, and Him being present and appearing.
Vs 27 "parousia" is the same as vs 4 when the disciples asked what SIGN there would be to prove His nearness/coming. This verse says Christ is coming and it shall be as lightening coming out of the east and shines unto the west. Vs 30 "érchomai" is not looking for Christ' nearness/coming, it shows His presence/appearance when He is seen in the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2064. ἔρχομαι erchomai (érchomai)
Search for G2064 in KJVSL; in KJV.
ἔρχομαι érchomai, er'-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) ἐλεύθομαι eleúthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) ἔλθω élthō el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):—accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, × light, × next, pass, resort, be set.
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You've repeatedly claimed that "telos" and "sunteleia" are synonyms.
What independent support can you provide for that claim?
Please provide a link.
You can see for yourselves the Greek word "erchomai" is not synonymous with "Parousia". Too many verses to list them all, but here are a few from Matthew that prove "erchomai" means to be present and not the same as Christ' nearness in coming.
Mt 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mt 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mt 26:43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mt 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
Mt 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mt 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mt 26:43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mt 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please don't take offense at the way I chose to refer to the fact that I disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24. I didn't mean any offense by it. I'm honestly baffled at how you interpret that verse. Let's take one more look at it (I'll add some surrounding verses for context):
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So, first, Paul points out that Christ has been risen from the dead bodily. I assume you would agree so far. And by doing so He became "the firstfruits of them that slept", with "them that slept" being a reference to those who were physically/bodily dead and belong to Him. Agree?
Then Paul indicated that "in Christ shall all be made alive". The context here is the bodily resurrection of the dead, as established in verse 20. Agree? If not, please tell me why not.
Then Paul points out again that Christ is the firstfruits which means that He was the first to rise from the dead, just as other scriptures like Acts 26:23 indicate. But he indicates that there is an order to the resurrection of the dead. Christ was the first. Who is next? Paul said that next in order to be resurrected from the dead are "they that are Christ's at his coming". Can you see here that Paul was talking about a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ at Christ's second coming? Seems very clear to me. Which is the same thing he wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. He indicated in 1 Cor 15:51-52 that this mass resurrection of the dead in Christ would occur at the same time which he said would be at the last trumpet.
So, the context up to verse 23 is the bodily resurrection of the dead, with Christ's bodily resurrection being the first and then next in order to be bodily resurrected are those who belong to Him at His second coming, which has not yet happened.
One Jesus comes, the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected. Then after that (not a thousand plus years after that as Premils imagine) comes the end. It is at that point when Jesus will "put down all rule and all authority and power" which alludes to the fact that He will destroy all His enemies at that point as other scripture teaches as well.
I don't see any indication in the text at all to suggest that Paul was talking about anything besides the bodily resurrection of the dead in verses 20-23 and the reference to Christ's coming in verse 23 is a clear reference to His future second coming. So, it seems very clear to me that Paul was saying the end would come after Christ comes again.
So, please let me know your thoughts on what I said here.
This does not address what I said about how Jesus used synonyms for His second coming and therefore that proves He used synonyms at times to refer to the same event. Why couldn't that be the case for the end of the world/age as well?
Don't we all make inferences and assumptions at times, including you? Of course. Sometimes we don't have overwhelming evidence to back up our opinions on something. That, of course, doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it.
We're all sharing our beliefs here on these things. I don't think any of us have absolute proof of any of this and I don't think anyone is claiming as such.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I disagree with how you are defining the word "parousia" as if it only refers to the nearness of His coming rather than to His coming itself, as in the act of Him descending from heaven to "the air" which will occur as fast as lightning shines from the east to the west.
When the disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age/world, it was one question. The end of the age/world will occur when His parousia occurs. You are actin as if His "parousia" only indicates that the end of the age/world is near. No, the end of the age/world will happen when His parousia happens.
So, I believe the word "parousia" is talking about His actual coming (His coming/descending from heaven to "the air" where we will meet Him) and not the nearness of His coming. So, I believe the disciples were asking Him what would be the sign to indicate that His coming/parousia and the accompanying end of the age/world is near.
Where are you getting the idea from that the word "parousia" refers to the nearness of His coming rather than His coming (as in His coming down from heaven) itself?
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Was Paul saying here that we who are alive and remain until the nearness of His coming will later be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air, or was he saying that we who are alive and remain until the moment He actually comes down from heaven to "the air" will be caught up to meet Him? I think it's clearly the latter. If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, then it appears that you think it's the former.
What exactly is different about the word "erchomai" compared to the word "parousia"? Please tell me exactly how you interpret Matthew 24:27 and exactly how you interpret Matthew 24:30 so that I can more clearly see what you are intending to say about these words. In my view they both refer to the same time when Jesus descends from heaven, so I see no reason why they can't be used as synonyms.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
συντέλεια syntéleia, soon-tel'-i-ah; from G4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):—end.
τέλος télos, tel'-os; from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
As you can see here, they mean basically the same thing. They both generally refer to the end (completion, consummation, conclusion, termination) of something. If that doesn't make them synonyms then I don't know what does.
Info on the word syntéleia: G4930 - synteleia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Info on the word telos: G5056 - telos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
But, you are giving a false definition of the word "parousia". It does not refer to the nearness of His coming (assuming "His coming" refer to His coming/descending bodily from heaven), it refers to His coming itself, as I showed in another post.
As I indicated in that post, if it referred to the nearness of His coming rather than to His coming itself then that would mean Paul was saying in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that those who are alive and remain unto the nearness of His coming will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. But, that isn't what Paul was saying. He was saying those who are alive and remain until He actually comes down from heaven will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet Him in the air.
I truly enjoy having these discussions, and I'm not opposed to engaging in rowdy, but civil debates. What I find troubling is when the discussion devolves into name calling and false accusations, (which we are ALL guilty of) especially from those who are mostly familiar with the Biblical doctrine one endorses.
I'm sorry my understanding of 1Co 15 is baffling to you. I'll reply piecemeal in an effort to not write a book.
I was with you until you said, "The context here (vs 20) is the bodily resurrection of the dead." Paul doesn't mention the bodily resurrection of the dead until the last trump sounds.
Christ is the firstfruits of those who have physically died in faith. Because physical death came by man (Adam), so too by man (Christ) comes the resurrection of the dead. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, through Him these dead saints have been spiritually resurrected to heaven. Paul tells us that when a man physically dies in Christ, his/her body is sown a natural body, but it is raised a spiritual body. Because there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
If Paul were talking about the physical bodily resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds, why would he say when the body of the saints dies it is raised a spiritual body? Our resurrected bodies are sown mortal & corruptible, but in the resurrection they will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. That describes being raised physical not spiritual. Then the saints will once again be as in the beginning before sin and death entered in. Immortal & incorruptible physical body, with spirit, a complete living soul.
So what does Paul mean when he says, there is both a natural body (physical/flesh/bone) and a spiritual body (heavenly/celestial/of heaven)? Christ as the firstfruits of them that slept redeemed them from physical death, spiritually. IOW they were raised spirit beings, to be as the angels of God in heaven, where they can die no more (Mt 22:30). This is a depiction of the first resurrection man must have part in to overcome the second death. These who died in faith before Christ came waited in the grave (Abraham's bosom Lu 16:22) for Christ to come and take them with Him to heaven. That's why Paul was anxious to be absent from his body and present in heaven with the Lord (2Cor 5:6-8).
Being made alive in Christ, in our own order for each who in physical life have part in the resurrection life of Christ, the first resurrection, are spiritually raised through the presence or coming (parousia) of Christ through His Spirit in us. Then we physically die (the end), it is by His coming or presence through His Spirit in this age that He has delivered up the Kingdom to God, the Father and put down all rule, authority and power, and since His ascension. He is now reigning from heaven in a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed, where He was given power and everlasting dominion. The last enemy, death shall not be destroyed until the last trump sounds. But every other enemy was already vanquished by His life, death, resurrection and ascension.
Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
1 Corinthians 15:22-26 (KJV) For as in Adam all die,even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
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