Prophecy and History

[Randy Kluth]

That much is plainly obvious. It's the saddest part and everyone should have pity on people like you.

[Act 17:11 LSB] 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily [to see] whether these things were so.

I'll be happy to engage in any respectful conversation. Brow-beating, or any form thereof, is the thing I'm not interested in. To try to "force" others to agree with you by shaming them or the like, should be ignored.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I'll be happy to engage in any respectful conversation. Brow-beating, or any form thereof, is the thing I'm not interested in. To try to "force" others to agree with you by shaming them or the like, should be ignored.

You'll be happy to espouse your views which can't be supported by scripture. I've already shown many of your opinions are totally without merit and easily refuted by statements in scripture. It's not even a matter of interpretation. Just very clear statements. It's hard to understand how you think you can get away with making such obvious errors.

 

[Randy Kluth]

And you fell for the ole misinformation ploy some man put forth. 2 Thess. 2 is about the Departure of the Church. So, you allow one or two passages, that you do not comprehend, to take you down a cul-de-sac.

Nothing wrong with a cul-de-sac when you live on one! I think I do understand 2 Thes 2. I had no agenda when I memorized it. When you memorize something you have to read and re-read until you can't ignore the message.

Never-mind that the Church returns as the Bride in Ch. 19 to the Marriage Supper (Armageddon) or that Jesus stated we will escape the Wrath to come, or that the Churches mission is not Israel's calling.

Accepting Christ as my Savior I immediately escaped the Wrath to Come. The Wrath to Come is Eternal Judgment--not the Reign of Antichrist.

And never-mind that the 7 Feasts show Jesus fulfilling all 7 in sequential order, the 1.) Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread 3.) First-fruits of he grave 4.) The Feast of Weeks/Summer Harvest/Church Age. 5.) Feast of Trumps (Last Trump which ends the Gentile Church Age. 6.) Feast of Atonement where Israel ATONES just before the DOTL (Zech. 13:8-9 and Zech. 14:1 shows this) 7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to tabernacle means to Dwell with God and Jesus is God thus Israel dwells with Jesus for his 1000 year reign) That is not all just coincidence.

The order of biblical Feasts follows the sequence of the agricultural year. It is not a crystal ball allowing us to date when certain prophetic events will happen.

You allowed a mistranslated (on purpose by the Church of England) version of 2 Thess. 2 to take you down a wrong path. It is very clear, the Church DEPARTS as vs. 1 shows, we are Gathered unto Jesus, nowhere in the whole passage is a Departure of the faith even hinted at.

For most of history, until Dispensationalism, I believe the Church read "apostasia" as "departure from the faith." The Antichrist will oppose the faith and lead the post-Christian world to convert to paganism.

Then in Rev. 2 and 3 we see the Church Age (7 = Divine Completion) called the "Things that are" and then everything after the Rev. 4:1 Rapture is called the HEREAFTER (the 70th week). Then we see the 24 Elders (Church) described in vs. 4 as having the very things promised in Rev. 2 and 3 to those who overcame, in Rev. 2:10, we see they were promised crowns of Gold, in Rev. 4:4 they have on CROWNS, in Rev. 3:10 they were promised White Robes, and in Rev. 4:4 they have on White Robes (Psstt, meaning they have already Married the Lamb at that point) and in Rev. 3:20-21 they are promised they will have a seat at God's throne, in Rev. 4:4 we see they are sitting at God's throne. All this happens before any Seals have ever been opened. So, in essence, everything points to a Pre Trib Rapture, but your misunderstanding of 2 Thess. 2 just overpowers your awareness I guess. We can not allow one or two verses to take us down a wrong path, God is not going to say job well done when we did not do the hard grunt work.

The portrait of the Church in heaven or with their heavenly reward are called prolepses. They are pictures of our future reward even as if they are happening presently. This is a common feature in the Apocalypse. From the 1st chapter Christ is viewed as coming back from heaven. Jesus does not have to be portrayed as returning only at the end of the book! Actually, his Coming is shown several times throughout the book.

The visions in the book are not ordered by sequence, and the message to the 7 churches is not given to depict a prophetic order as compared with the rest of the book. You are making huge assumptions instead of relying on what the book itself says. In fact, in the messages to the 7 churches they also are told that things happen later, well before ch. 4. Saying something will happen later does not mean a Rapture takes place!

Daniel will stand in his lot at the very end, after the Church returns, Israel the Nation, and the Church have different callings, one is married to God the Father, the other to God the Son, the Redeemer.

Where do we see this in the Scriptures? You are imposing preconceived notions on the Scriptures, which never say such things!

There will be no 10 Nation Kingdom, the 10 = COMPLETION, the 10 = All Europe Completely Reunited. We know that 1/3 of the world is going to burn, have you not taken that into account? Lets see, the New World has exactly 1/3 of the worlds Landmass and the Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of the surface water on this earth. Jesus is going to rule for 1000 years from the Old World (Jerusalem) so he will burn up the New World, its that simple. That is why trying to put the USA into Prophecy never works. That is why people who think the Anti-Christ will rule the whole world just do not get it, Jesus understood hee needed to only have his ministry in a limited location. All of the Beasts have only Beasted over certain areas, in the Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why each Beast arose out of the [Mediterranean] Sea !! The E.U. will conquer the Mediterranean Sea Region, we see this in Daniel 11:40-43.

You're entitled to your opinion. But you act like you have been given special access to "truth." Why not try a little humility?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You'll be happy to espouse your views which can't be supported by scripture. I've already shown many of your opinions are totally without merit and easily refuted by statements in scripture. It's not even a matter of interpretation. Just very clear statements. It's hard to understand how you think you can get away with making such obvious errors.

Learn to live with the fact others do not see things exactly the way you do. Then we'll be fine.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Learn to live with the fact others do not see things exactly the way you do. Then we'll be fine.

I'm really only interested in others who have open minds and search the scriptures and are ready and willing to be shaped by scripture and not by wild imagination and opinions. Otherwise it is a waste of time. You can attempt to correct someone only so much and then you give them over to their error.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm really only interested in others who have open minds and search the scriptures and are ready and willing to be shaped by scripture and not by wild imagination and opinions. Otherwise it is a waste of time. You can attempt to correct someone only so much and then you give them over to their error.

Let me manage a hypothetical quote from Eclipse, "I am the way and the truth--follow me or you're ignoring my interpretation of the Scriptures, which is completely obvious to me."

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Let me manage a hypothetical quote from Eclipse, "I am the way and the truth--follow me or you're ignoring my interpretation of the Scriptures, which is completely obvious to me."

[Tit 2:6-8 LSB] 6 Likewise urge the younger men to be sensible; 7 in all things show yourself to be a model of good works, [with] purity in doctrine, dignified, 8 sound [in] word which is irreproachable, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

[Tit 2:6-8 LSB] 6 Likewise urge the younger men to be sensible; 7 in all things show yourself to be a model of good works, [with] purity in doctrine, dignified, 8 sound [in] word which is irreproachable, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

2 Tim 2.15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Please be aware that the word of God, thought it be depicted as a "2-edged sword," is not to be used in a carnal way. That would be an abuse of the word of God.

To use the word of God like an axe to harm fellow Christians, or to "shame them," in an ungodly way, has no basis in the Scriptures. It is an abuse.

2 Cor 10.4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

If you are a good Christian, show it by your "good deeds."

Heb 10.24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds...
Jam 3.13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
1 Pet 2.12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

By contrast, others think the word of God can be wielded for ungodly reasons...

Gal 5.15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Rom 2.17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Nothing wrong with a cul-de-sac when you live on one! I think I do understand 2 Thes 2. I had no agenda when I memorized it. When you memorize something you have to read and re-read until you can't ignore the message.

No, everything in the bible points to a Pre Trib Rapture, its not even debatable, God has only one truth, it always jibes. The 2 Thess. 2 verses is the easiest to understand because we are told what Paul is speaking about in vs. 1 a GATHERING unto Christ, nowhere in the whole passage (I challenge you to find it) is there any place where FAITH being DEPARTED is spoken of. The first 7 English translations had departed, the Latin Vulgate, around for 1000 years before the KJV had Discessio (means to depart also). I do not allow Kings Servants to confuse me about scriptures so they can sling mud at the RCC. I mean both the Church of England and the RCC were somewhat evil, torturing people etc. etc. We have to overcome their agendas at times. Just because you (and others) first learned something, means nothing in reality, as pertaining unto what the Greek texts say. Shutting your mind to facts and saying, I see nothing, is on you. God wants us to see His truths, not the "TRUTHS" of men with agendas, that is what Jesus said to the Pharisees when he spoke about Traditions of men. Thus that "Falling Away" theory did not come from God, it came from bible translators who were in error (even if it destroys your anti pre Trib agenda).

Accepting Christ as my Savior I immediately escaped the Wrath to Come. The Wrath to Come is Eternal Judgment--not the Reign of Antichrist.

No it is not, (lol) we can see the Wrath to come explained in many places. In 2 Thess. 2 Paul was rebuking the Thessalonians for thinking they were in the DOTL, then tells them that DAY (DOTL can not come until the Departure (of the Church who will be Gathered unto Jesus see vs. 1) and the Anti-Christ or Man of Sin has come forth. Jesus says we must endure until the end, he says many will do stuff in my name and I never knew them, we are saved by Faith, but true Faith hears the holy spirt, it does not hear men's agendas.

The portrait of the Church in heaven or with their heavenly reward are called prolepses. They are pictures of our future reward even as if they are happening presently. This is a common feature in the Apocalypse. From the 1st chapter Christ is viewed as coming back from heaven. Jesus does not have to be portrayed as returning only at the end of the book! Actually, his Coming is shown several times throughout the book.

The visions in the book are not ordered by sequence, and the message to the 7 churches is not given to depict a prophetic order as compared with the rest of the book. You are making huge assumptions instead of relying on what the book itself says. In fact, in the messages to the 7 churches they also are told that things happen later, well before ch. 4. Saying something will happen later does not mean a Rapture takes place!

No, its you not being able to overcome certain scriptures so you go on an imagination journey. I understand the book of Revelation is not in Chronological order, but it is until Rev. 9. We see Jesus who is Eternal in Rev. 1, we see the Church Age in Rev. 2 & 3 then we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 & 5 before the Seals are ever opened, BUT......After the Rev. 19 portion where the church is not yet married me telling you they had on White Robes in Rev. 4 should have clued you in I understand Revelation is not in Chronological Order because in the first part of Rev. 19 they have not married the Lamb yet. Rev. 6 is Jesus opening up the Judgment Scrolls, this is not God's Wrath, it is Jesus opening up the Judgment Scrolls, which brings the Wrath, that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8. Jesus foretells (Seals 1-5) the coming Anti-Christs soon actions over a 42 month period of time where he is not allowed to go forth conquering until God's Wrath falls (Rev. 8 asteroid). The 6th Seal is also Jesus foretelling about this same 42 month period, but from the perspective of God's soon to fall Wrath. That is why Seal #6 is only Jesus foretelling the Fourth Trump (as does Joel 2:31), the Sun & Moon goes dark. In Rev. 7 we merely see the Woman or Israel fleeing Judea in REAL TIME, just before God's Wrath falls, the 144,000 and the Woman are both CODE for All Israel who repents. We see this again in Rev. 12, proving its not a part of the original Chronological Order.

The Wrath of God Begins

In Rev. 8 God's Wrath falls with an Asteroid (Apophis imo) making impact. The First Four Trumps are all happening because of ONE ASTEROID IMPACT. The 5th and 6th Trump are in Rev. 9, Apollyon and his Demons are released from the Pit and 200 Million Angels brings God's Plagues (LOL, not 200 million China Men) this is Woes 1 & 2. Then we move to Rev. 15&16 really one chapter, and we see the 7 Vials which emit from the 7th Trump, these 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe. This ends the book of Revelations REAL TIMELINE.

The Parenthetical Chapters

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 are events going on at the exact same time as Rev. 8, 9 and 16(and 15). All but Rev. 11, 14 and 19 run parallel to God's 42 months of Wrath (starts via the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact). Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses and they show up 75 days before the Middle of the week 1260 events, at the 1335, which comes first, 1335 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END at the 2nd coming of Jesus. So, they also die 75 days before the 2nd Coming, at the end of the 2nd Woe. Rev. 14 is the Harvest chapter and in vs. 14 we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture, so this covers 7 full years, as does Rev. 19 where we see the Raptured Church before they/we get our White Robes, then we see the Church with Jesus at Armageddon 7 years later.

Rev. 11 (7th Trump), Rev. 14 (The End Time Harvest/Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20, Rev. 16:19 the 7th Vial (Wine-press again) and Rev. 19 the Marriage Supper/Armageddon are all the EXACT SAME EVENT !! I understand the book of Revelation, Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, everything after that is not the Church Age so it is the HEREAFTER or 70th week.

For most of history, until Dispensationalism, I believe the Church read "apostasia" as "departure from the faith." The Antichrist will oppose the faith and lead the post-Christian world to convert to paganism.

I have a blog that destroys this. They read it that way because the Church of England lied. The Churches at that time had all the control. Satan loves winnowing his way into the truth and confusing the masses. Not being confused on the Rapture to start with gives us an upperhand on Satan's efforts to deceive here.

Where do we see this in the Scriptures? You are imposing preconceived notions on the Scriptures, which never say such things!

Everywhere, read Dan. 12, read Rev. 20:4 it SPECIFICALLY STATES that only the Martyrs of the 70th week who refused the Mark of the Beast will live and reign on Earth with Jesus, did you know that? ONLY THEM, meaning the rest of the Church returns to Heaven during the Kingdom Age. The Kingdom Age is spoken of everywhere, you guys try to discount those Promises to Israel at your own peril.

You're entitled to your opinion. But you act like you have been given special access to "truth." Why not try a little humility?

We are all special unto God, but we all have different callings, its really sad to see people not called unto Prophecy trying to teach it. I can tell in 5 minutes if its a persons calling.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

No, everything in the bible points to a Pre Trib Rapture, its not even debatable, God has only one truth, it always jibes. The 2 Thess. 2 verses is the easiest to understand because we are told what Paul is speaking about in vs. 1 a GATHERING unto Christ, nowhere in the whole passage (I challenge you to find it) is there any place where FAITH being DEPARTED is spoken of. The first 7 English translations had departed, the Latin Vulgate, around for 1000 years before the KJV had Discessio (means depart). I do not allow Kings Servants to confuse me about scriptures so they can sling mud at the RCC. I mean both the Church of England and the RCC were somewhat evil, torturing people etc. etc. We have to overcome their agendas at times. Just because you (and others) first learned something, means nothing in reality, what for the Greek texts say. Shutting your mind to facts and saying, I see nothing, is on you. God wants us to see His truths, not the "TRUTHS" of men with agendas, that is what Jesus said to the Pharisees when he spoke about Traditions of men, that "Falling Away" theory did not come from God, it came from bible translators who were in error (even if it destroys you anti pre Trib agenda).


No it is not, (lol) we can see the Wrath to come explained in many places. In 2 Thess. 2 Paul was rebuking the Thessalonians for thinking they were in the DOTL, then tells them that DAY (DOTL can not come until the Departure [of the Church who will be Gathered unto Jesus see vs. 1) and the Anti-Christ or Man of Sin has come forth. Jesus says we must endure until the end, he says many do stuff in my name and I never knew them, we are saved by Faith, but true Faith hears the holy spirt, it does not her men's agendas.


No, its you no being able to overcome certain scriptures so you go on an imagination journey. I understand the book of Revelation is not in Chronological order, but it is until Rev. 9. We see Jesus who is Eternal in Rev. 1, we see the Church Age in Rev. 2 & 3 then we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 & 5 before the Seals are ever opened, BUT......After the Rev. 19 portion where the church is not yet married me telling you they had on White Robes in Rev. 4 should have clued you in I understand Revelation is not in Chronological Order because in the first part of Rev. 19 they have not married the Lamb yet. Rev. 6 is Jesus opening up the Judgment Scrolls, this is not God's Wrath, it is Jesus opening up the Judgment Scrolls, which brings the Wrath, that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8. Jesus foretells (Seals 1-5) the coming Anti-Christs soon actions over a 42 month period of time where he is not allowed to go forth conquering until God's Wrath falls (Rev. 8 asteroid). The 6th Seal is also Jesus foretelling about this same 42 month period, but from the perspective of God's soon to fall Wrath. That is why Seal #6 is only Jesus foretelling the Fourth Trump (as does Joel 2:31), the Sun & Moon goes dark. In Rev. 7 we merely see the Woman or Israel fleeing Judea in REAL TIME, just before God's Wrath falls, the 144,000 and the Woman are both CODE for All Israel who repents. We see this again in Rev. 12, proving its not a part of the original Chronological Order.

The Wrath of God Begins

In Rev. 8 God's Wrath falls with an Asteroid (Apophis imo) making impact. The First Four Trumps are all happening because of ONE ASTEROID IMPACT. The 5th and 6th Trump are in Rev. 9, Apollyon and his Demons are released from the Pit and 200 Million Angels brings God's Plagues (LOL, not 200 million China Men) this is Woes 1 & 2. Then we move to Rev. 15&16 really one chapter, and we see the 7 Vials which emit from the 7th Trump, these 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe. This ends the book of Revelations REAL TIMELINE.

The Parenthetical Chapters

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 are events going on at the exact same time as Rev. 8, 9 and 16(and 15). All but Rev. 11, 14 and 19 run parallel to God's 42 months of Wrath (starts via the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact). Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses and they show up 75 days before the Middle of the week 1260m events, at the 1335, which comes first, 1335 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END at the 2nd coming of Jesus. So, they also die 75 days before the 2nd Coming, at the end of the 2nd Woe. Rev. 14 is the Harvest chapter and in vs. 14 we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture, so this covers 7 full years, as does Rev. we see the Raptured Church before they/we get our White Robes, then we see the Church with Jesus at Armageddon 7 years later.

Rev. 11 (7th Trump), Rev. 14 (The End Time Harvest/Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20, Rev. 16:19 the 7th Vial (Wine-press again) and Rev. 19 the Marriage Supper/Armageddon are all the EXACT SAME EVENT !! I understand the book of Revelation, Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, everything after that is not the Church Age so it is the HEREAFTER or 70th week.


I have a blog that destroys this. They read it that way because the Church of England lied. The Churches at that time had all the control. Satan loves winnowing his way into the truth and confusing the masses. Not being confused on the Rapture to start with gives us an upperhand on Satan's efforts to deceive here.


Everywhere, read Dan. 12, read Rev. 20:4 it SPECIFICALLY STATES that only the Martyrs of the 70th week who refused the Mark of the Beast will live and reign on Earth with Jesus, did you know that? ONLY THEM, meaning the rest of the Church returns to Heaven during the Kingdom Age. The Kingdom Age is spoken of everywhere, you guts try to discount those Promises to Israel at your own peril.


We ae all special unto God, but we all have different callings, its really sad to see people not called unto Prophecy trying to teach it. I can tell in 5 minutes if its a persons calling.

It very evident that everyone in these types of threads, including you and @Randy Kluth are completely and hopelessly confused. It's not even a debate about opinions. But when people state things that are actually contrary to statements found in scripture and when confronted about them, they just say, "It's what it means to me and so I'm correct", you can't even have a discussion based on facts.

Prophecy interpretation is very hard. But I've not come across so many people who state things so blatantly against what scripture states. Then when you point out their error using Scripture itself they get all offended that their precious artificial construct has been demolished. Then they accuse you of being disrespectful and start mocking and ridiculing. And they have the gall to say they are called by God to promote their blatant error and claim it is how prophecy should be understood. They are defiant to stay in their safe ignorance, wallowing in their self created errors. They do not want to be corrected.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It very evident that everyone in these types of threads, including you and @Randy Kluth are completely and hopelessly confused. It's not even a debate about opinions. But when people state things that are actually contrary to statements found in scripture and when confronted about them, they just say, "It's what it means to me and so I'm correct", you can't even have a discussion based on facts.

Prophecy interpretation is very hard. But I've not come across so many people who state things so blatantly against what scripture states. Then when you point out their error using Scripture itself they get all offended that their precious artificial construct has been demolished. Then they accuse you of being disrespectful and start mocking and ridiculing. And they have the gall to say they are called by God to promote their blatant error and claim it is how prophecy should be understood. They are defiant to stay in their safe ignorance, wallowing in their self created errors. They do not want to be corrected.

I have been called as a Preacher to Prophecy nigh 40 years, I did not receive these End Time Understandings until the last 7 or 8 years after I was slowed down by a Heart Attack and Diabetes. So, its not my stye to jump out with "STATEMENTS where in fact I am just Guessing" I do not do that, maybe just maybe you can't understand what I now see because you are not hearing the Lord but instead are hearing other men's ideas from years ago.

As I was praying one night about 2016 or so, just after my hear attack, and laid up, I asked God why was it that "In these end times, when He is supposed to reveal all of these things, as stated in Daniel and elsewhere, we as a Church was still so disjointed and all over the place with 100s of understandings of who the Harlot is, who the 144,000 are, what the 7 Headed 10 Horned Beast means, what Babylon really means" etc. etc. and I got this from the Holy Spirit:

"Ron, you guys already know it all"

I understood straight away, the Lord wanted me to do what I had done when first saved, reading the Gospels, and I always just silently asked, "What does this mean Lord" and He always answered me, every time. So, I now understand why there was so much confusion, before God was ready to deliver His End Time Understandings, men had come up with personal ideas, and now God could not get past those FALSE NATIONS (like the 1444,000 are Super Preachers, LOL, that is nowhere in scriptures). So, God wanted me to now reread all the Prophetic texts, Danial, Ezekiel, Revelation et al and WHENEVER I came to a passage that made no sense, or seemed to be contradictory, I needed to ask God to SHOW ME Lord, and He has done that every single time, as long as I refuse to move on until get the answer.

Demonstration, in Dan. 7:11 the bible says the Beast is KILLED, his body DESTROYED and cast into hellfire, then in Rev. 19 it says the False Prophet and Beast are CAST ALIVE into hell, WHAT GIVES? Nothing, both are true statements, God NEVER contradicts Himself, we misunderstand, or we see passages translated wrongly, here we misunderstand, we as humans are immortal, Dan. 12:1-2 and 1 Cor. 15:50-52 says WE SLEEP, just like the Wicked REST for 1000 years (at least) before the 2nd Resurrection sees them judged, but they never die spiritually. Unlike them, the Anti-Christ when he is KILLED (all men must die and be judged) he will never be given the chance to Sleep/Rest until the 2nd Resurrection, he will be taken straight away (CAST ALIVE) into hellfire.

Another DEMONSTRATION, the Temple can not be defiled until it is cleansed, taking away a PROFANE Meat Sacrifice is not what DEFILES the temples, that is nonsensical, so what is the Man in Linen (Jesus pre incarnate) and Gabriel speaking of in Dan. 12:4-7 then? They are telling us that Jesus Worship (THE SACRIFICE) will be forbidden, after the Jews repent. Can we show this in scriptures? Yes, Zech. 13:8-9 shows that 1/3 of the Jews repent, and they call God God and He calls them His children again. And we can see in the very next verse this has to happen JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives because Zech. 14:1 says Behold the DOTL arrives (SMILE) so Israel repents, starts worshiping Jesus in the temple, thereby cleansing the temple, therefore when the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest gone rogue like Jason unto Antiochus) forbids Jesus worship or takes away the Sacrifice, the Temple is then DEFILED AGAIN. Until it is cleansed it can not be defiled, God sees a Meat Sacrifice as EVIL, not holy, it mocks Jesus' death. Jason (real name Yeshua) bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest having his pious High Priest brother Onias III killed, he then welcomed Antiochus into the temple to offer a sacrifice of a pig unto Zeus, and ordered all Jews to become Hellenized, leading un to the Maccabean Revolt. Jason covers over 6 chapters in the book of Maccabeans. The exact same thing in going to happen in the end times, not only is Antiochus an Archetype Anti-Christ BUT OF COURSE, he had to have an Archetype False Prophet by his side also, Eureka, that just makes sense.

So, knowing what a passage says vs. what it actually MEANS is two entirely different things. After all, the Pharisees were learned men, but they were blinded unto the Suffering Servant Scriptures because they had a blind spot, they DESIRED the Conquering King passages. Once you see that all of those "MEN'S IDEAS" need to be questioned, then and only then can you overcome the tunnel vision they cause. So, anyone who is heeding what a man put forth 50, 75 or 100 years ago, before God was ready to put forth His End Time Understandings, it needs to be looked at very carefully. Hal Lindsey, an many others were great men of the Lord, but God is only now giving us His End Time truths, so why are we heeding men's ideas from long ago? Yes, as young Christians we all saw Prophecy as way over our heads, so we read Men's thoughts on these things, which were limited, there was useful stuff, but overall, we know have the access to God's full understandings in these end times, IF.............we can overcome the WRONG ASSUMPTIONS put forth by "MEN" from years ago. The 144,000 is merely a CODE for all Israel who repents, that's a fact. God does not chose perfect numbers.

God saved unto Himself 7000 men well 7 = Divine Completion and 10 = Completion, so 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000 or Divine Completion x Completion or ALL Israel, therefore He gives us His answer without giving Satan any answers. God says 144,000 will be saved in the end, well 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness and thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is Fulness x Completion or ALL Israel who repents. Lastly God told us 1/3 of Israel will repent in Zech. 13:8-9, just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 so there was no way Satan could know this number until he got to the very end, so it gave nothing away. But the ONLY WAY all three can be true is if the first two are CODE NUMBERS, because 7000 is not 144,000 and neither = 1/3 of all the Jews today (3.5-5 million) so both can ONLY BE CODES !!

Prophecy is easy when God gives you the answers, when we can not get past OLD THINGS men taught long ago, we are thus BLOCKING the Holy Spirit's answers by being bull headed.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, I'm afraid that at times it seems there are more questions than answers! Anyway, the prophecy of Gog is another question mark in my book I have yet to figure out. It may be that someone like Russia will lead the European confederation of Antichrist? But I don't know.

Ahhh the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 and Revelation 20.

Well, see...all nations of the Earth will NEVER ban together to wage war against the Church (or some people believe Israel) UNLESS you understand this as God breathed it. The word translated "nations" is the Greek word ethos, meaning anyone non-Jewish, a foreigner. In other words, unsaved people or professed Christians. It is the same word translated as Gentiles. For example:

1Pe 4:3
(3) For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Rev 11:2
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Those words translated "Gentiles" that are wicked and that tread down the Holy City is the same word you find in Revelation 20. People who insist on taking this word in Revelation to be the same as all the literal countries of the world attacking the Church, or worse Israel, are in great error. God separates us into two groups SPIRITUALLY. Spiritual Jews, who are saved, and Gentiles, who are not saved. Moreover, read carefully what it says:

Rev 20:8
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations (Gentiles) which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 7:3
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

They are called Gog and Magog gather together to battle the faithful Christians in the church, as they are the unfaithful Gentile church (professed Christians), those whom it is given to trample down the Holy City (Church). Not Russia, or any literal nations, but the deceived of the New Testament congregation all over the world. The unsaved of the world, but not the literal nations, the unfaithful people of the congregation that spread their apostasy universally in all Churches. They set up the man of sin in the Temple to be worshipped instead of Christ, and that is not the literal nations of the world. It is the deluded of the unfaithful church from the 4 quarters of the Earth. That is why there are many false prophets and christs coming over all over the church worldwide.

In these last days the greatest of all of Satan's weapons is DECEPTION in the church. Not guns and missiles pointing at national Isreal. The world has been deceived for ages. You need to understand that Satan wasn't bound that the whole world be not deceived, but that Christ could build His Church as He had Israel in the Old Testament. And as it was the Jewish Leaders wo were deceived then by Satan, so it will be in these last days with the false prophets and christs in the New Testament congregation on Earth.

The point being, people like you got Gog and Magog all wrong thinking she must be Russia and her arab allies prepared to wage physical war over the nation Israel when God was talking about His New Testament congregation after all men are sealed (Revelation 7:1-4). You are looking at the wrong place.

 

[ScottA]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse? Are we left with just Fear Mongering as our Prophetic Meessage to the world?

Many years agao I became interested in Bible Prophecy, just as many do today. I became fascinated with the focus on Future Prophecy, including much that we see in Dispensationalism--a focus on Israel's restoration, and the signs of the Last Generation. But then I converted to Postribulationism, due to a Bible Memorization program I began to engage in. 2 Thessalonians seemed to be explicitly teaching against what I had been trained, in Pretribulationism, to believe!

Eventually I began to study World History to see if there was any obvious relationship between it and the little bit of Bible Prophecy that I felt still was Future Prophecy. Amazingly, just a few passages in Daniel seemed to have anticipated it all. Daniel's focus was not on an escape from Antichrist, but rather, on resignation that Antichrist does come as an essential characteristic of world history.

But Daniel seemed to see it all in just a couple chapters, chapter 2 and chapter 7. It's like a "mustard seed" of truth created the entire Tree of History for me! Daniel's picture of a 4th Kingdom, which I saw as Rome, formed into 2 halves, the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, which evolved into the Europe we have today. This is portrayed as “2 legs” in Dan 2.

At the same time the Gospel was spreading throughout the world, as promised, the world formed the very pattern that Daniel predicted. There was the Slavs joining the Greek Orthodox communion in the East, and the Germans joining the Latin Catholic communion in the West. Both followed the pattern Daniel prescribed of a 2-legged 4th Kingdom on earth. Perhaps these are the “2 horns” of the “2nd Beast,” a kind of “false pope” in Rev 13?

If you will survey history on this evolution you may see, as I did, this gradual evolution towards what Daniel saw would eventually become a 10-nation Antichristian Empire, consisting of Eastern and Western European nations. It is pure speculation on my part right now, but it appears the historical trend towards dissolving empires into states is now operating in the old Soviet territory. And this is, I think, necessary, in order to prepare for the Antichrist Empire to come. 1st there must be 10 states, East and West, and then they must be sufficiently weakened for Antichrist to assume dictatorial control over them. Just a thought....

The things you describe are what YOU have read into scripture. Need to weigh it all according to the full content of scripture. Your views would then all vanish with no support.

What there is in prophecy that many do not even recognize is truly amazing. The big role that Egypt has yet to play. How Messiah makes war on the earth when He returns and just how violent it will be. The massive physical changes to the earth - earthquakes aren't just going to happen, they will crumble all of mankind's structures.

There are a lot of this kind of belief and interpretation that has come down through the last 2,000 years.

In reality, just as Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and only manifest in the world as a relatively small local event, all things written are likewise only manifest in this same smaller way in the world, while the greater part is in the heaven and was before the world also. This is just the reading of the will--the will of God for humanity, made manifest that the man of sin is revealed.

Prophecy then, is not to be looked at as the things that shall come, but rather a small indication of what was before the foundation of the world and now revealed. These are signs. Thus, looking at the things of prophecy as the fulfillment is completely backwards and leaves many to seek first the kingdom of this world rather than the kingdom of God. Therefore, what is written? These are the things that are and shall indeed come to pass in their manifestation, but only as mere shadows. Shadows. Here the days and nights pass, but in heaven there is no shadow of turning...and it is the kingdom of God that is actual reality. Such is prophecy and history.

How shall we therefore live? As if all that we do is written in heaven--because it is.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

There are a lot of this kind of belief and interpretation that has come down through the last 2,000 years.

In reality, just as Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and only manifest in the world as a relatively small local event, all things written are likewise only manifest in this same smaller way in the world, while the greater part is in the heaven and was before the world also. This is just the reading of the will--the will of God for humanity, made manifest that the man of sin is revealed.

Prophecy then, is not to be looked at as the these that shall come, but rather a small indication of what was before the foundation of the world and now revealed. These are signs. Thus, looking at the things of prophecy as the fulfillment is completely backwards and leaves many to seek first the kingdom of this world rather than the kingdom of God. Therefore, what is written? These are the things that are and shall indeed come to pass in their manifestation, but only as mere shadows. Shadows. Here the days and nights pass, but in heaven there is no shadow of turning...and it is the kingdom of God that is actual reality. Such is prophecy and history.

How shall we therefore live? As if all that we do is written in heaven--because it is.

And there's those people who say words and words and words.....and none of makes any sense.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Daniel seemed to see it all in just a couple chapters, chapter 2 and chapter 7. It's like a "mustard seed" of truth created the entire Tree of History for me! Daniel's picture of a 4th Kingdom, which I saw as Rome, formed into 2 halves, the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, which evolved into the Europe we have today. This is portrayed as “2 legs” in Dan 2.

At the same time the Gospel was spreading throughout the world, as promised, the world formed the very pattern that Daniel predicted. There was the Slavs joining the Greek Orthodox communion in the East, and the Germans joining the Latin Catholic communion in the West. Both followed the pattern Daniel prescribed of a 2-legged 4th Kingdom on earth.

Well, we don't go far wrong looking at Daniel 2 and 7.

But the west 'leg' of Rome ended in 476 AD and the east 'leg' in 1453 AD. Why are you even looking at east and west catholics for clues following the actual Roman empire? They are religions - not empires. The best example of an entity which has characteristics of 'religion' PLUS political empire would be the Islamic caliphate. Why don't you have a look there?

 

[covenantee]

Well, we don't go far wrong looking at Daniel 2 and 7.

But the west 'leg' of Rome ended in 476 AD and the east 'leg' in 1453 AD. Why are you even looking at east and west catholics for clues following the actual Roman empire? They are religions - not empires. The best example of an entity which has characteristics of 'religion' PLUS political empire would be the Islamic caliphate. Why don't you have a look there?

Chris, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire (even though the epitome of unholy), a quintessential combination of religion and politics, pre-dating Islam by more than a century.

 

[Jay Ross]

And there's those people who say words and words and words.....and none of makes any sense.

Said one self-perceived expert to another in an attempted put down. LOL and ROFL and any other form of laughter.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Chris, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire (even though the epitome of unholy), a quintessential combination of religion and politics, pre-dating Islam by more than a century.

Daniel 2 places 10 kingdoms in the original boundaries Rome before (and up to) the rise of Islam. I cannot see them fulfilled in the Holy Roman Empire. How do you and Randy explain them?

 

[covenantee]

Daniel 2 places 10 kingdoms in the original boundaries Rome before (and up to) the rise of Islam. I cannot see them fulfilled in the Holy Roman Empire. How do you and Randy explain them?

Do you mean Daniel 7?

 

[amigo de christo]

This is something I'm watching for, a division of the world into 10 regions, or kingdoms, I'm thinking it's going to be economic zones of some kind.

But then I also happen to think that Gog/Magog invasion of Israel will occur just before the rapture/70th week, including a world wide earthquake, that wil throw the world into chaos, from which the beast will arise.

Much love!

They done it my friend . But remember it specfically speaks of ten KINGS . ten leaders that rule one hour with the beast .
Now lets look at something .
First we see this AI , image that can speak . We see a digital system
and AI will run it . the image that speaks etc .
We see this digital system has the potential to shut anyone it desires OUT , and they are unable to BUY or sell .
But here is what most dont see .
Hey mark . WHO is behind this digital five G system .
THE D TEN . TEN mark . TEN OF THEM . sumething aint right mark . THINGS be moving in much faster than folks
be realizing . But because its the TEN liberal DEMOCRACIES , folks are gonna and do think its all for our good .
I imean we got to compete with China right , we cant fall behind china right . THEY DUPING US mark .
THE D TEN knoweth what they doing . And it aint D NINE or D SEvEN .
ITS D TEN mark . and now a word . These kings have recieved now power as of yet
BUT THEY SHALL RULE ONE HOUR WITH THE BEAST .
a system with an image that speaketh and causes the world .................YEAH ITS ALL RIGHT IN FRONT of us mark .
THE BIBLE . It aint just some book wrote by men . THE BIBLE actually IS and was INSPIRED BY GOD .