Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
Prove the Existence of God without the Bible?
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I usually refrain from philosophical discussions concerning the proof or disproof of God. Belief in God is a faith akin to love, both of which are alogical constructs. Trying to use logic and/or empirical evidence to refute or prove the existence of God is missing the point of spirituality and faith altogether.A logical response to your philosophical premise.
(waynemlj;35361)
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
The proof and evidence is all around you and everywhere, undeniable proof, and indisputable visible evidence. It is called creation and life. Unless your are blind, deaf, and senseless. You can see, smell, taste, hear, feel, and examine the evidence.> > > > > > > > > > > > >We live on a planet teeming with life. Plant life with approximately 250,000 species, animal life with over a million species. Scientists are learning just how complex life is. So complex that it requires design. The evidence of design requires a designer. Scientists are also learning the conditions for life; just how perfect conditions here on planet Earth are to support all this life. > > > > > > > > > > > > >The human brain, it absorbs forty megabytes per second of data while awake. That is two terabytes of data a day. At night, it sorts and stores that data through the creation of new chemical bonds and synaptic connectors.> > > > > > > > > > > > >Sure, right, this all just happened and evolved. This sort of thinking takes considerable faith, exponentially more faith than believing in a creator.
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
The proof and evidence is all around you and everywhere, undeniable proof, and indisputable visible evidence. It is called creation and life. Unless your are blind, deaf, and senseless. You can see, smell, taste, hear, feel, and examine the evidence.> > > > > > > > > > > > >We live on a planet teeming with life. Plant life with approximately 250,000 species, animal life with over a million species. Scientists are learning just how complex life is. So complex that it requires design. The evidence of design requires a designer. Scientists are also learning the conditions for life; just how perfect conditions here on planet Earth are to support all this life. > > > > > > > > > > > > >The human brain, it absorbs forty megabytes per second of data while awake. That is two terabytes of data a day. At night, it sorts and stores that data through the creation of new chemical bonds and synaptic connectors.> > > > > > > > > > > > >Sure, right, this all just happened and evolved. This sort of thinking takes considerable faith, exponentially more faith than believing in a creator.
There has to be a Creator, just look around, up, down, side to side, into yourself. That's it. Then we can take the Bible and start to discover,who this Creator really is.
(waynemlj;35361)
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
I'm not sure what you're getting at.Yes we can philosophically know that God exists via the Ontological argument, Cosmological argument, Teleological argument, Moral argument, and other assorted arguments. Are you familiar with any of those?R.C. Sproul has an interesting method of "proving" God's existence that I'll try to summarize if you'd like.
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
I'm not sure what you're getting at.Yes we can philosophically know that God exists via the Ontological argument, Cosmological argument, Teleological argument, Moral argument, and other assorted arguments. Are you familiar with any of those?R.C. Sproul has an interesting method of "proving" God's existence that I'll try to summarize if you'd like.
(JonJT;35364)
I usually refrain from philosophical discussions concerning the proof or disproof of God. Belief in God is a faith akin to love, both of which are alogical constructs. Trying to use logic and/or empirical evidence to refute or prove the existence of God is missing the point of spirituality and faith altogether.
I agree with this whole-heartedly.Well, not the part about refraining from philosophical discussions, as I find them interesting, although ultimately I think all of the proofs are indefensible. But I couldn't agree more about missing the point if you arrived at God through a logical proof.
I usually refrain from philosophical discussions concerning the proof or disproof of God. Belief in God is a faith akin to love, both of which are alogical constructs. Trying to use logic and/or empirical evidence to refute or prove the existence of God is missing the point of spirituality and faith altogether.
I agree with this whole-heartedly.Well, not the part about refraining from philosophical discussions, as I find them interesting, although ultimately I think all of the proofs are indefensible. But I couldn't agree more about missing the point if you arrived at God through a logical proof.
(Ek Pyros;35428)
Why? How is that missing the point?
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind. If God were to reveal himself to us in a physical presence, we would never develop a faith, but would acknowledge his presence simply because we can empirically prove his existence. Simply being conscious of God because we can see him is not conducive to the things the Lord wants out of us. God wants us to love him and trust him deep in our hearts. Asking us to do that without physically appearing in front of our eyes is the best test of faith because we cant use our conscious, free willed minds to his existence.
Why? How is that missing the point?
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind. If God were to reveal himself to us in a physical presence, we would never develop a faith, but would acknowledge his presence simply because we can empirically prove his existence. Simply being conscious of God because we can see him is not conducive to the things the Lord wants out of us. God wants us to love him and trust him deep in our hearts. Asking us to do that without physically appearing in front of our eyes is the best test of faith because we cant use our conscious, free willed minds to his existence.
(waynemlj;35361)
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
I guess this is one of the basic issues that has haunted humankind ever since it began thinking for itself.If there was a time when there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then that would surely exclude God Himself. Therefore there could not be any God because there was nothing to create Him, or to create Him from.Therefore, if there is a God(s), He must have always existed, or at least whatever "substance" He is made from must have always existed.However, I think the follow-on issue is perhaps even more interesting: If God exists how can one prove that He is intelligent, constructive and interested in humans? Humankind has always created a supernatural intelligence to explain whatever couldn't be explained, hence the sun and moon gods, fertility gods, etc. Nowadays we know these do not exist as deities, but we still have "modern" deities to explain what we don't know - how can we be sure that one day these too won't we proved to be simply natural phenomena?
Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?Of course, it's easy through simple logic. Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God.Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?waynemlj
I guess this is one of the basic issues that has haunted humankind ever since it began thinking for itself.If there was a time when there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then that would surely exclude God Himself. Therefore there could not be any God because there was nothing to create Him, or to create Him from.Therefore, if there is a God(s), He must have always existed, or at least whatever "substance" He is made from must have always existed.However, I think the follow-on issue is perhaps even more interesting: If God exists how can one prove that He is intelligent, constructive and interested in humans? Humankind has always created a supernatural intelligence to explain whatever couldn't be explained, hence the sun and moon gods, fertility gods, etc. Nowadays we know these do not exist as deities, but we still have "modern" deities to explain what we don't know - how can we be sure that one day these too won't we proved to be simply natural phenomena?
(JonJT;35487)
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind.
Exactly. Once one has a deep relationship with God, the question of trying to prove his existence would never even enter his mind; it should be that plainly evident to him that God simply does exist.
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind.
Exactly. Once one has a deep relationship with God, the question of trying to prove his existence would never even enter his mind; it should be that plainly evident to him that God simply does exist.
(JonJT;35487)
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind. If God were to reveal himself to us in a physical presence, we would never develop a faith, but would acknowledge his presence simply because we can empirically prove his existence. Simply being conscious of God because we can see him is not conducive to the things the Lord wants out of us. God wants us to love him and trust him deep in our hearts. Asking us to do that without physically appearing in front of our eyes is the best test of faith because we cant use our conscious, free willed minds to his existence.
You're going to have to define "true belief" for me then because I have 100% belief in a lot of things I can prove. Does that mean I shouldn't believe in them? Why would Paul write in Romans 1 that man is without excuse for disbelief in God based on the creation if the creation was not a valid way to derive God?And did you forget the Israelites? They had the very presence of God manifest before their eyes and they rebelled...I don't think God showing Himself would do away with faith. Jesus, in the "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man, quoted Abraham saying that if the rich man's kin would not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they would not believe even if Lazarus came back to them himself...I think you need to use scripture to back up your position. You might quote something like "Without faith is it impossible to please God" but I would then say, I have a lot of faith. I need little faith to believe God is, but a lot to believe that He is who He says He is and that He will do all that He promised. Besides, we are to love God with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength--why would God see our relationship with Him as any less because we can affirm His existence with the very same rational thinking He gave us? Our minds are not perfect anymore, no, but I believe God is honored when we affirm Him via the minds He gave us to glorify Him. If faith and reason lead to the same conclusion, why would I need to disown myself from one? I was never led to faith by reason--I grew up accepting God's existence as given--but when I share Jesus with others, a very useful tool is the ability to show how rational it is that God IS. The Bible is littered with clues which support that thinking: does Yahweh call Himself "I AM who I AM" when asked His identity? We can draw so much from that simple statement and then help others to see truth with their own eyes. Once again, Jesus said we are to love God with all our mind--not just our heart and soul. Our mind thinks; and if it can help others think clearly about God, is must be implemented in that manner.
Love and faith in God are based upon feelings derived from trust and ideas not proven through empirical evidence or theory that is acceptable in common scientific practice. You hear the word or God, you feel the love of God inside you. Such things cannot be proven my machines or math. Such is the point of our time on this Earth. God wants us to make a conscious choice between him and satan and he wants us to do it of belief in him and him alone. True belief stems from feelings and intuitions deep inside your heart and mind. If God were to reveal himself to us in a physical presence, we would never develop a faith, but would acknowledge his presence simply because we can empirically prove his existence. Simply being conscious of God because we can see him is not conducive to the things the Lord wants out of us. God wants us to love him and trust him deep in our hearts. Asking us to do that without physically appearing in front of our eyes is the best test of faith because we cant use our conscious, free willed minds to his existence.
You're going to have to define "true belief" for me then because I have 100% belief in a lot of things I can prove. Does that mean I shouldn't believe in them? Why would Paul write in Romans 1 that man is without excuse for disbelief in God based on the creation if the creation was not a valid way to derive God?And did you forget the Israelites? They had the very presence of God manifest before their eyes and they rebelled...I don't think God showing Himself would do away with faith. Jesus, in the "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man, quoted Abraham saying that if the rich man's kin would not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they would not believe even if Lazarus came back to them himself...I think you need to use scripture to back up your position. You might quote something like "Without faith is it impossible to please God" but I would then say, I have a lot of faith. I need little faith to believe God is, but a lot to believe that He is who He says He is and that He will do all that He promised. Besides, we are to love God with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength--why would God see our relationship with Him as any less because we can affirm His existence with the very same rational thinking He gave us? Our minds are not perfect anymore, no, but I believe God is honored when we affirm Him via the minds He gave us to glorify Him. If faith and reason lead to the same conclusion, why would I need to disown myself from one? I was never led to faith by reason--I grew up accepting God's existence as given--but when I share Jesus with others, a very useful tool is the ability to show how rational it is that God IS. The Bible is littered with clues which support that thinking: does Yahweh call Himself "I AM who I AM" when asked His identity? We can draw so much from that simple statement and then help others to see truth with their own eyes. Once again, Jesus said we are to love God with all our mind--not just our heart and soul. Our mind thinks; and if it can help others think clearly about God, is must be implemented in that manner.
Hi Wayne,I like the weight of empirical evidence you put together in your reply.Thank you for your response!A point I wish to make, though, is that many scientists, physicists, and other highly educated men have seen all this and seen it all in more detail than you and I have. Yet, they are atheists and completely closed to simple logic. Sure, the Bible revelation tells us about the majesty of God and of His many attributes which you can see with your eyes.Carl Sagan, world famous physicist, studied the depths of the cosmos for his lifetime, until he died recently still denying the existence of God.A simple logical exploration can demonstrate his error. If one were to ask him, "Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing?" And he answers that he is not responsible, as a scientist, for that investigation, (this actually did take place in a conversation the Dr. R.C. Sproul (noted evangelist and author of over 50 books on theology and philosophy). Dr. Sproul pointed out to him that as a scientist he IS responsible for the origin of the blob of matter that he claimed exploded into the stars and planets and the matter of the universe. He can't stop there. He has to at least account for the cause of this matter having existence. Could something come from nothing? Of course not! The Law of Contradiction says that a thing cannot NOT BE and Be at the same time and in the same relationship. That's the kind of thread I had in mind when I posted this topic.The conclusion Must be that there has always been a Self-Existent Being from whom all being, animate and inanimate, came, etc.Thanks, again, for your interest in this topic,waynemlj
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun hangs the planet earth.A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further, we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is.This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.can you see the wind no but you can see the effects it has You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not hair. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God. courtsy of Carmon.
(waynemlj;35535)
Could something come from nothing? Of course not! The Law of Contradiction says that a thing cannot NOT BE and Be at the same time and in the same relationship.....The conclusion Must be that there has always been a Self-Existent Being from whom all being, animate and inanimate, came, etc.
I don't believe this is the only conclusion, there is a link missing. I agree that something cannot be created from nothing, but that does not conclude that the "something" has to be a divine, intelligent being. Whilst I believe in a Creator, I don't think this empirically proves Him.
Could something come from nothing? Of course not! The Law of Contradiction says that a thing cannot NOT BE and Be at the same time and in the same relationship.....The conclusion Must be that there has always been a Self-Existent Being from whom all being, animate and inanimate, came, etc.
I don't believe this is the only conclusion, there is a link missing. I agree that something cannot be created from nothing, but that does not conclude that the "something" has to be a divine, intelligent being. Whilst I believe in a Creator, I don't think this empirically proves Him.
(dgc;35631)
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun hangs the planet earth.A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further, we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is.This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.can you see the wind no but you can see the effects it has You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not hair. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God. courtsy of Carmon.
I don't follow the logic here at all. Just because our form of life requires the conditions on earth, it does not mean that no other form of life is possible. For example, there are life forms deep in the sea that never see light. All this shows is how life has evolved in response and reaction to conditions as they happen to be on earth. The situation could be totally different on another planet.How would you adapt this argument if life forms were found on another planet? For example, if it turns out that primitive life forms originally arrived on earth on the back of a meteorite from elsewhere?I don't actually disagree with you personally, I too think the world is too amazing for that - but I just question this as proof that there is God. Surely proof has to absolute? I don't think this is..
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun hangs the planet earth.A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further, we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is.This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.can you see the wind no but you can see the effects it has You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not hair. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God. courtsy of Carmon.
I don't follow the logic here at all. Just because our form of life requires the conditions on earth, it does not mean that no other form of life is possible. For example, there are life forms deep in the sea that never see light. All this shows is how life has evolved in response and reaction to conditions as they happen to be on earth. The situation could be totally different on another planet.How would you adapt this argument if life forms were found on another planet? For example, if it turns out that primitive life forms originally arrived on earth on the back of a meteorite from elsewhere?I don't actually disagree with you personally, I too think the world is too amazing for that - but I just question this as proof that there is God. Surely proof has to absolute? I don't think this is..
Hi EK Pyros,I listen to Dr. Sproul's teachings every morning on the Internet, have several of his books, and am a partner in his ministry.I am very glad to know that you have followed his teachings and seem to know them well. So then, you can see where I'm going with my philosophical approach to the discussion of the existence of God.Yes, the Ontological argument is the point here, and you can add the Teleological one, as well. In addition, I would want to include the Law of Contradiction (Non-Contradiction) that a thing cannot NOT BE and BE at the SAME TIME and in the SAME RELATIONSHIP.These theories or arguments are so logical that they make a nice fit with Theology and the study of the Bible in order for a person to have a solid and accurate world view.Thanks for you interesting response!waynemlj
Hi Kalixx,The argument doesn't "empirically" prove the existence of God. It logically proves the eternal existence of a Being who is transcendent -- of a much higher order than we are, infinitely higher -- because this Being is SELF-EXISTENT. He does not begin or end, is above and outside of time and very "other" to us.I like this simple logic because we can use it as a starting point to talk about other characteristics this Being has in a later discussion.Thanks for your good reponse here!waynemlj
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