Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

[BreadOfLife]

Can't be any plainer.
You prove on every post you are without Spiritual Understanding.
Your Carnal Understanding Rants and False accusations are beyond ad nauseam.

Calling others wrong and making False accusations DOES NOT MAKE YOU CORRECT.

Keep preaching God lies when He says Converted men are IN CHRIST and HIS SPIRIT IS IN THEM FOREVER.

But how would Spiriutal Understanding make sense to you? YOU CLAIMED you "were" born again; NOT BY YOUR ELECTION.

Men WHO Elect to believe AND GIVE their Life to the Lord BECOME NEW CREATURES....

Apparently YOUR Catholic Bible teaches that you can become a new man....then become the old man....LOL.

Ridiculous.

All of your blathering - yet you STILL can't provide a single verse to support your false position on the man made Protestant doctrine of OSAS . . .

 

[Taken]

All of your blathering - yet you STILL can't provide a single verse to support your false position on the man made Protestant doctrine of OSAS . . .

In all your blathering.....
You have NOT ONCE declared "YOU" called on the Lord FOR HIM to CONVERT YOU, SAVE your soul or BIRTH you a new spirit.

In all your blathering....
You have NOT ONCE declared "HOW MANY TIMES" "your were supposedly" SAVED.

Since you are preaching a man Receiving Salvation ONCE IS NOT SUFFICIENT....

HOW MANY TIMES MUST a man BECOME SAVED?

 

[BreadOfLife]

In all your blathering.....
You have NOT ONCE declared "YOU" called on the Lord FOR HIM to CONVERT YOU, SAVE your soul or BIRTH you a new spirit.

In all your blathering....
You have NOT ONCE declared "HOW MANY TIMES" "your were supposedly" SAVED.

Since you are preaching a man Receiving Salvation ONCE IS NOT SUFFICIENT....

HOW MANY TIMES MUST a man BECOME SAVED?

It's not about how many times I've been "saved."
It's about God's continual work in me.

As Paul stated under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .
1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

 

[Heb 13:8]

And simple belief is NOT true faith.
TRUE faith = Belief + Obedience.

Even the DEMONS believe - but they don't have FAITH (James 2:19).

BOL, James 2 is referring to faith in our daily walk, it has nothing to do with original salvation in Rom 10:9. A believer can fall and get back up and still know Jesus Christ is Lord. These are two different topics in which you are mixing the two.

James 2:15-16 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard - and a ridiculous example of denial.

FIRST of all - the fact that obedience is mentioned 12 times in the KJV means that it is pretty important.

Secondly - Not ONE of the 10 Commandments uses the word "Obedience" - but the very nature of the Commandments is 100% obedience.

Finally- the ENTIRE theme of the Bible is about obedience vs. disobedience.
What Book are YOU reading??

Compared to what, the word "believe" that is mentioned 143 times or maybe the word "faith" that is mentioned 247 times? God bless

 

[Taken]

It's not about how many times I've been "saved."
It's about God's continual work in me.

But it IS about How MANY TIMES.

Since some, like myself, say the Lords Gift of Salvation given a man ONCE Is SUFFICIENT and you have spent umpteen posts denying Once is sufficient.

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife : about true faith, your equation, and more...

The Only Road to Salvation

(1) The initial inception of the salvation act and its process

Now being a sinner with a limited so-called free-will he/she volunteers to believe, perform and receive the following, as God has already moved him/her to this point in his/her heart and mind. The conditions are perfect. The soil is rich, the seed is being planted….

Prerequisites:

1. Belief there is only one God, creator and maker of all

2. Possess a healthy reverence (fear) for God

3. Belief that Jesus Christ was born as a human being by God, his Father.

4. Hear and listen to the gospel message of salvation including the essential element that Jesus the Christ dies or atoned for our sins

If the Prerequisites are not met, then salvation cannot occur.

Steps to the acquisition of personal salvation (there are many variations although these steps are crucial)

1. Belief in the gospel message of salvation that includes:

- Belief that God gives the gift of eternal life to those that believe in his son (and his works on the cross).

- Belief in Christ’s baptism from his death as being in sin although he did not sin, to eternal life, without sin

- Belief that your life will forever change because you believe God will perform a miracle that will wash away your sins with the same baptism as Christ, into your heart and being. You demonstrate this belief further with a water baptism as a strong sign of commitment.

2. Confess and repent of your sins with a humble and contrite heart and that you truly are sorry for them.

3. Belief that Jesus is now coming into your heart as the power of the spirit of God. And that this spirit shall remain in you.

4. Acknowledge and thank God with all your heart, his grace (unmerited favor) and loving kindness he is bestowing upon you, as he comes into your heart to be with you, to give you the saving faith required to sustain you through your new life. You cannot do this yourself, this faith is from God as a gift.

5. Belief He will never let you go. Your desire to reach out voluntarily from your heart to be saved has been met by the true surgeon of your life. He received your heartfelt message of salvation and performed a surgery in your heart you could never do for yourself. He healed your heart and closed and sealed it with his spirit as assurance.

You are saved and a sinner no more. You now begin to work with God as you work out your salvation to its final state. You walk with him on the narrow path to the final state of salvation. We are now being converted as we become the spirit of Jesus. Spiritual faith is matured as God delivers to us.

Note: you never have faith to save your own life, because you have never experienced death. You cannot have faith in something or someone new without having experienced first. You can only believe in something or someone new based on your own will and mind.

Your saving faith is given to you upon arrival of the spirit of God into your heart after you volunteered to be saved and passed the specific steps lists above according to God’s satisfaction.

(1) Initial justification and righteousness state of salvation: a function of the following 4 sequential activities

(belief (the gospel message to God) -->

perform (confession and repentance of sins to God) -->

belief (Jesus’ spirit indwells in the heart by sealing power and the residence of God’ spirit) -->

receive (the initial regeneration of the heart by the saving and sustaining faith from God’s spirit))


(2) On-going conversion and sanctification state of salvation: a function of two variables

Notice that our own belief is not a factor in this on-going state conversion and sanctification stage or state of salvation. It is replaced and based on our initial saving faith given by God. This is the basis of salvation and is the TRUE faith.
We are now experiencing salvation in our lives for the first time

(2a) Spiritual (faith) growth level >= initial saving faith

(2b) spiritual (faith) growth level = initial saving faith + obedience or cooperation with God

Note: we can never lose our saving TRUE faith given by God. Therefore, even if our obedience goes to zero for a duration or always until we die, through sin, we are still saved and reach the glorification state of salvation. Although there are consequences: we suffer rewards and considered one of the least in the Kingdom of God.

Again, with salvation sin does not affect it!! Saved folks are sensitive to sin and avoid it as much as possible. God says they do not live in sin anymore, and I believed and today have strong faith in his words.


(3) Glorification final salvation state:

Possessing a new spiritual body suited for everlasting life with Jesus at the head, and the other saints in the Kingdom of God.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This man caught in an adulterous state of your scenario, if he was once truly saved he is still saved, my friend. Do not be confused with even a grave sin and disobedience. These variables cannot lose this man’s salvation as some depressing religions have said and preached. This is what an unbeliever does, create doubt in a person and whispers in your ear that you are never ‘good’ enough for God. Once ‘saved’ you do not live in sin anymore. You have a wicked bias against It, even if occurs in your life as you grow spiritually. God does not see sin anymore in a saved person. It is dead, remember? You believed in your baptism, didn’t you? You believe in the word of God as the truth?

Now if this man in your scenario was not saved, he is still in a lost state and needs to be saved……

Hope this helps...

Bless you,

APAK

You posted "This man caught in an adulterous state of your scenario, if he was once truly saved he is still saved, my friend. Do not be confused with even a grave sin and disobedience. These variables cannot lose this man’s salvation as some depressing religions have said and preached. "

I cannot find any verse that supports this statement. The man in my scenario turned to live and die in the sinful state of adultery.

Paul says the wages of sin is death not saved anyway. Romans 6:23.
Gal 5:19-21 adultery is a sin that keeps one from inheriting the kingdom of God.

To the idea that men are saved by "grace alone" and therefore not required to keep God's laws/commands and/or are not accountable to God's laws/commands, Paul says "God forbid" Romans 6.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No it does not. Clearly "ONCE the receiving of the Salvation has occurred, IT IS Accomplished and Done".



Correct. Salvation IS accomplished "BY and THROUGH Christ", that results in a man BEING "IN" Christ, FOREVER.

And one puts on Christ in baptism , (Galatians 3:27). And then must faithfully remain in Christ and not fall away from Christ.

Correct.
.

So we agree that receiving salvation is CONDITIONAL upon man believing in his heart. Therefore we can get rid of the false idea of OSAS that salvation is UNconditional as to where the Christian cannot be lost even if a he quits believing, right?

He DOES KEEP BELIEVING.
IT IS THE CONVERSION AS mentioned above, and the Power of the Indwelling Spirit, that KEEPS a man in Belief and Faithfulness TO the Lord FOREVER.

The natural man IS spiritually dead and passed away. A new man IS spiritually alive IN CHRIST, forever.

A man believes in his heart by his own volition therefore can quit believing by that same volition. There is no verse in the Bible that guarantees it is impossible for the Christian to stop believing. Instead it WARNS about unbelief - Hebrews 3:12.

A man WHO CAN believe and QUIT believing, is a man WHO HAS NOT received Salvation or a new birth.

Again, you have no verse to back this up.

That man like all men can RECEIVE KNOWLEDGE, and even say with HIS MINDS thoughts hey dude, ya sure, "I BELIEVE"...AND NEXT YEAR say to you hey dude, nah, I use to believe, but "I don't any more". Eh, "God is mean, he let my little daughter get sick and die".
People follow and believe......AND walk away for all kinds of "REASONS".

The ONLY WAY TO Receive the Lords Give of Salvation IS to truthfully believe in your heart;
AND Confess your belief TO THE Lord.

Wait a minute.

Above you posted "A man WHO CAN believe and QUIT believing, is a man WHO HAS NOT received Salvation or a new birth."

Now in this same thread I have APAK telling me a Christian can turn to live and die in adultery yet still be saved. But you are saying he was never saved, never born again.

So who is right, you or APAK?

He IS the DOOR "TO" Salvation.
One MUST truly heartfully believe and ELECT to Give their Life TO HIM....and then they become entered THROUGH the Door....THROUGH CHRIST and thus IN Christ Once and forever.

But in Revelation 3:20 we have Christ standing at the door of His own church knocking to be let back in.

Do you realize a complete HEATHEN is being gifted Faith from God, just because SOMEONE is speaking the Word of God in the Heathen's EAR?

That is why PREACHING the Word of God, SPEAKING the Word of God IS IMPRESSED.

If a heathen HEARING, is intrigued, he may be sparked to OPEN the Bible, go hear a Sermon, BEGIN believing, become INCREASED in faith.....and may one day have a Heart FULL of faith, THAT he calls on the Lord and Confesses Believe and himself Become Converted unto the Lord Forever.

Or he may elect to not believe, and he will have Lost what faith he had, and fall away and die in his sins and become FOREVER separated from the Lord.



Really? So a Saved and born again man...MUST by his OWN power REMAIN Faithful? I can not guarantee today, that forever I, BY MY OWN POWER can remain Faithful.

Yes. Again, Revelation 2:10 the command to be thou faithful unto death is given to the Christian. Just as Jude commanded the Christian to "keep yourself in the love of God" (Jude 1:21). These imperatives are given to the Christian to obey and these commands imply the Christian has both ABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY to obey these commands. God does not obey these commands for the Christian while the Christians sits idly by.

Why do you think ALL Commands in Scripture ARE TO Christians?

Did you overlook, Jesus came TO SAVE Lost JEWS? Jews who believed IN God, and turned toward Gentile WAYS, worldly WAYS?

Jesus CHOSE JEWS, taught them and SENT THEM out TO the LOST Jews.

Did you NOT notice, Jesus was on earth REVEALING TO JEWS, "HE" is their lang awaited Messiah? He fulfilled their laws and prophecies. YET, He did NOT destroy "THEIR" Law. WHAT foresight! The Jews had a marvelous interest, WHEN Jesus was on earth, and for several years while the Apostles were wandering from city to city preaching to the LOST Jews.

The Believing and Converted Jews did not "BECOME" Christians; THey became Saved and Born Again and the Faithful "IN" Christ.

TOday for the most part JEWS "who" remain obedient TO the Law, are STILL UNDER the LAW. THEY have to become SAVED, NOT BY BEING IN CHRIST, but rather by BEING IN OBEDIENCE TO THEIR LAW and FIATHFUL to their death......BY THEIR OWN POWER.

So, yes, that was stressed.
Does what they DO affect me? NO. I am "IN" Christ and "HIS POWER" IS in me.

Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. IF a man IS IN Christ, that applies TO that man.

Christ's NEW TESTAMENT command to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38) is to all men. And the Jews Jesus came to seek and save would be saved by obeying Christ's command as many Jews did there in Acts 2 on that day of Pentecost.

No one can be saved by keeping the OLD TESTAMENT as Paul says "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..' Gal 3:11

You put WAY more weight on the word "Christian" than I do. A 5 year old can call himself a Christian and have NO knowledge that it IMPLIES SAVED and Born again.

Already SAID....
Learning the knowledge IS a process, for the man.
Deciding to Submit IS a thought process a man mulls over to consider.

Confessing is not a drawn out process.
It is an ACT by the man.
Receiving Salvation and a born again spirit from the Lord is not a drawn out process.
He IS patient for the man to Learn.
He IS instantly with the man who Confesses.
He QUICKLY converts the man, accomplishing the forgiveness, salavation and born again.

IS there MORE for a man TO DO after he IS saved and born again? Absolutely, and already covered that.



Already covered this.

Rev 2:10-11 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. ."

Jesus is speaking to Christians at the church in Smyrna.

Some observations:

--The command to be faithful unto death is given to Christians which implies Christians have both the ability and accountability to obey this command. No reason or sense to give such a command if it were not possible for the Christian to be faithful. You have not produced a verse that says God will keep the Christian faithful were he cannot fall away.
--the fact the command was even given logically implies the Christian CAN become unfaithful. Again, no reason or sense to give such a command if it were impossible for the Christian to quit believing/become unfaithful.
--the phrase "unto death" shows the faithfulness must be life long. Therefore becoming a Christian and remaining a Christian is a LIFE LONG process unto death.
--The ones that do remain faithful, that is, overcome shall not be hurt of the second death which is spiritual death in being lost, separated from God.
--again, the language in commanding to be faith and overcoming make no sense if it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to ever be lost. But because the Christian CAN become unfaithful and therefore not overcome, it makes perfect sense to command being faithful.

Righteous or Justified....BY WHOM?

Abraham was justified by God and being justified was a process Abraham went through.

If you think yourself a Hebrew under the OLD Covenant, then FORGET everything FORWARD that was revealed. Follow their ways, and do as they did, BEFORE more knowledge was revealed.

I elect to KNOW what was fulfilled and have Elected to Believe the Jewish Messiah arrived and revealed believe in Him is the WAY for a man to Be Saved and Born Again, yet while I am ALIVE in my natural flesh, I live IN CHRIST Spiritually.



Scripture does not SHOW Abraham being a reprobate. Abrahams faither was an idolater; made his living selling little statues. And Scripture itself shows Abraham had no qualms about leaving his father and going in the Way that God directed him to go.

Not sure your point, that ONLY reprobates need saving.

We are all born IN SIN and need Salvation "IF" one desires FOREVER LIFE "WITH the Lord.

God Bless,
Taken

Again, my point was Abraham being reckoned righteous, justified was a PROCESS and no one has shown otherwise in that they cannot point to a verse where Abraham was justified in one quick instant in time by having faith only.

 

[APAK]

You posted "This man caught in an adulterous state of your scenario, if he was once truly saved he is still saved, my friend. Do not be confused with even a grave sin and disobedience. These variables cannot lose this man’s salvation as some depressing religions have said and preached. "

I cannot find any verse that supports this statement. The man in my scenario turned to live and die in the sinful state of adultery.

Paul says the wages of sin is death not saved anyway. Romans 6:23.
Gal 5:19-21 adultery is a sin that keeps one from inheriting the kingdom of God.

To the idea that men are saved by "grace alone" and therefore not required to keep God's laws/commands and/or are not accountable to God's laws/commands, Paul says "God forbid" Romans 6.

Ernest: You created a 'different' Romans 6:23 that is not in scripture. Why did you do this?

(Rom 6:23) " For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. " (NEV)

Why did you omit the positive part of the verse, the free gift of God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord? It is attached to the verse for a hopeful reason.

It is saying that if we sin in our lives (no matter if we steal a pen from work, have mental sex, get drunk, etc) and we never accepted this free gift of life, we spiritually die and is lost upon death. I did accept this gift of life and now I live to eternal life and do not live in sin anymore. How say you? I do not take this matter lightly, for you and me..

Gal 5:19-21 is for those that have not accepted the free gift of life and still practice or make a lifestyle of sin with no guilt of remorse, Ernest.

Are you saved and know that you have salvation Ernest? I need to know because I want you to know his son and life if you don't. You are too precious to him, believe me.

I will pray for you Ernest...


Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife : about true faith, your equation, and more...

The Only Road to Salvation

(1) The initial inception of the salvation act and its process

Now being a sinner with a limited so-called free-will he/she volunteers to believe, perform and receive the following, as God has already moved him/her to this point in his/her heart and mind. The conditions are perfect. The soil is rich, the seed is being planted….

Prerequisites:

1. Belief there is only one God, creator and maker of all

2. Possess a healthy reverence (fear) for God

3. Belief that Jesus Christ was born as a human being by God, his Father.

4. Hear and listen to the gospel message of salvation including the essential element that Jesus the Christ dies or atoned for our sins

If the Prerequisites are not met, then salvation cannot occur.

Steps to the acquisition of personal salvation (there are many variations although these steps are crucial)

1. Belief in the gospel message of salvation that includes:

- Belief that God gives the gift of eternal life to those that believe in his son (and his works on the cross).

- Belief in Christ’s baptism from his death as being in sin although he did not sin, to eternal life, without sin

- Belief that your life will forever change because you believe God will perform a miracle that will wash away your sins with the same baptism as Christ, into your heart and being. You demonstrate this belief further with a water baptism as a strong sign of commitment.

2. Confess and repent of your sins with a humble and contrite heart and that you truly are sorry for them.

3. Belief that Jesus is now coming into your heart as the power of the spirit of God. And that this spirit shall remain in you.

4. Acknowledge and thank God with all your heart, his grace (unmerited favor) and loving kindness he is bestowing upon you, as he comes into your heart to be with you, to give you the saving faith required to sustain you through your new life. You cannot do this yourself, this faith is from God as a gift.

5. Belief He will never let you go. Your desire to reach out voluntarily from your heart to be saved has been met by the true surgeon of your life. He received your heartfelt message of salvation and performed a surgery in your heart you could never do for yourself. He healed your heart and closed and sealed it with his spirit as assurance.

You are saved and a sinner no more. You now begin to work with God as you work out your salvation to its final state. You walk with him on the narrow path to the final state of salvation. We are now being converted as we become the spirit of Jesus. Spiritual faith is matured as God delivers to us.

Note: you never have faith to save your own life, because you have never experienced death. You cannot have faith in something or someone new without having experienced first. You can only believe in something or someone new based on your own will and mind.

Your saving faith is given to you upon arrival of the spirit of God into your heart after you volunteered to be saved and passed the specific steps lists above according to God’s satisfaction.

(1) Initial justification and righteousness state of salvation: a function of the following 4 sequential activities

(belief (the gospel message to God) -->

perform (confession and repentance of sins to God) -->

belief (Jesus’ spirit indwells in the heart by sealing power and the residence of God’ spirit) -->

receive (the initial regeneration of the heart by the saving and sustaining faith from God’s spirit))


(2) On-going conversion and sanctification state of salvation: a function of two variables

Notice that our own belief is not a factor in this on-going state conversion and sanctification stage or state of salvation. It is replaced and based on our initial saving faith given by God. This is the basis of salvation and is the TRUE faith.
We are now experiencing salvation in our lives for the first time

(2a) Spiritual (faith) growth level >= initial saving faith

(2b) spiritual (faith) growth level = initial saving faith + obedience or cooperation with God

Note: we can never lose our saving TRUE faith given by God. Therefore, even if our obedience goes to zero for a duration or always until we die, through sin, we are still saved and reach the glorification state of salvation. Although there are consequences: we suffer rewards and considered one of the least in the Kingdom of God.

Again, with salvation sin does not affect it!! Saved folks are sensitive to sin and avoid it as much as possible. God says they do not live in sin anymore, and I believed and today have strong faith in his words.

(3) Glorification final salvation state:
Possessing a new spiritual body suited for everlasting life with Jesus at the head, and the other saints in the Kingdom of God.

Bless you,

APAK

Ummmm, first of all - ALL of the initial steps you listed require our cooperation (in RED) - so there goes Sola Fide right OUT the window. Some of the steps you listed regarding simple "belief" are accomplished by the DEMONS themselves (James 2:19) - so don't put too much trust in belief without obedience.

Secondly - your claim that after being born again, we are "sinners no more" is an anti-Biblical LIE.
We are sinners as long as we are on this earth and in these bodies (1 John 1:8). I don't know if one SINGLE Protestant Father or credible scholar who would agree with you on that one.

Finally - NOWHERE do the Scriptures tell us that we cannot lose our secure place with God.
They warn us of the exact opposite
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
. . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

But it IS about How MANY TIMES.

Since some, like myself, say the Lords Gift of Salvation given a man ONCE Is SUFFICIENT and you have spent umpteen posts denying Once is sufficient.

No - it isn't.
Initial salvation doesn't mean a THING unless you cooperate with God's grace and remain faithful to the end.

It's about God's continual work in me. When a Christian sins - he feels guilty that he offended God - or SHOULD feel that way. That is God working in us. You could just as easily turn away completely and follow your OWN will instead of His and be LOST.

This is hat Apostasy is all about.
Apostasy doesn't happen to people who are NOT born again believers.

 

[Taken]

And one puts on Christ in baptism , (Galatians 3:27). And then must faithfully remain in Christ and not fall away from Christ.

Must? Or DOES?

A Converted man does not KEEP himself "IN" Christ....the POWER of Christ "IN" the man Keeps the man "IN" Christ.

So we agree that receiving salvation is CONDITIONAL upon man believing in his heart.

Sure. I have said nothing to the contrary.

Therefore we can get rid of the false idea of OSAS that salvation is UNconditional

Pryor to "a man" RECEIVING Salvation...
"The mans" Conditions of heartfelt belief AND Calling on the Lords Name....is THAT mans Condition to meet.

ONCE ^ That occurs. The Condition of REMAINING "IN" Belief/Faithfulness/to Christ;
IS a Condition the Lords Indwelling POWER meets. (Not the power of the man)

as to where the Christian cannot be lost even if a he quits believing, right?

No. A man "IN" Christ, CAN NOT Stop Believing. He is KEPT in Belief/Faithfulness TO the Lord, BY the Lord.

Do you realize a man IS soliciting the Lord, Asking Him to TAKE CONTROL of his natural Life and Convert him to a NEW Creature?

Men can not Convert themselves, they are Asking the Lord to Convert them. When a natural man Asks the Lord to Convert him...
Do you think the Lords Wonders, hummm, gee, What if a man changes his MIND and later does not believe?

Of course He doesn't. He knows all things.
And besides, the Lord is not LISTENING to a mans MIND.....He is LISTENING for a heartfelt Confession.

And part of the Actual Conversion IS Circumcision of the mans HEART.

SO, "IF" by some oddball chance the Lords Power within the man was not sufficient enough TO KEEP the man IN FAITHFULNESS......THE OLD HEART that solicited the Lord......IS CUT OFF, dead and gone.

How would an OLD DEAD CUT OFF circumcised Heart, "change" and again become alive to say "it no longer believes" ?

A man believes in his heart by his own volition therefore can quit believing by that same volition.

THAT IS TRUE.........UNTIL.......THE MAN IS CONVERTED. THE OLD natural heart that confessed IS Circumcised, CUT OFF.

It is replaced with a NEW HEART, for a NEW Creature. A Heart that IS TRUE to God and filled with Gods Word of Truth.

There is no verse in the Bible that guarantees it is impossible for the Christian to stop believing.

Of course there is no vague verse to a vague proposition. It is not ABOUT Christians. It IS ABOUT Converted men. Many people CALL themselves Christians WHO ARE NOT CONVERTED. Many people believe WHO are NOT Converted.

Conversion IS the PARAMOUNT KEY, regardless if people call themselves "a Christian" or not.

Instead it WARNS about unbelief - Hebrews 3:12.

Warning about disbelief has nothing to do with your premise of a believer.

Of course Scripture warns of Disbelief.
It also Warns of men who are NOT Converted.
Matt 18:3

Again, you have no verse to back this up.

You are without understanding.

Wait a minute.

Above you posted "A man WHO CAN believe and QUIT believing, is a man WHO HAS NOT received Salvation or a new birth."

Uh huh.

Now in this same thread I have APAK telling me a Christian can turn to live and die in adultery yet still be saved. But you are saying he was never saved, never born again.

So who is right, you or APAK?

Both

IF you were converted.
Were you forgiven FOR VIOLATING the Jewish Law of Adultry?

Salvation given a man BY THE Lord, IS "part" of the gifts given a man FOR Electing to BECOME Converted.

Forgiveness OF the mans SINS....is also 'part' of the gifts given a man FOR Electing to BECOME Converted.

WHY would Adultry BE a SIN unto a man AFTER Conversion?

Do you KNOW WHY Adultry was a Law given Hebrews/Jews?

As with ALL their LAWS, they were BEING prepared in their Natural Bodies, to become Converted and Transformed, TO NEW Supernatural Creatures.

The ONLY "MARRIAGE" for a Transformed supernatural Creature is "TO" Christ.

A Converted man IS ALREADY prepared for his ONLY ONE "marriage" ceremony "TO" Christ. And By Christ's POWER such a man CAN NOT "commit" "Adultry" (sin) Against the Lord.

The Man CHOSE/ELECTED, to be faithful and true to the Lord ONLY, and the Man ELECTED to GIVE the Lord Authority TO KEEP him unto the Lord ONLY, BY HIS POWER, which IS supreme and unfailing.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Revelations is a very indepth Book.
It begins by the testimony of Jesus Christ "TO" His "servants"

But in Revelation 3:20 we have Christ standing at the door of His own church knocking to be let back in.

Uh no. Christ is not OUTSIDE the DOOR. He IS the Door. His Knocking is a Calling.
Many are Called. Few are chosen. Those WHO enter through the door, enter Thru Christ, and His Spirit will then Come Dwell IN a man, Forever.

Yes. Again, Revelation 2:10 the command to be thou faithful unto death is given to the Christian. Just as Jude commanded the Christian to "keep yourself in the love of God" (Jude 1:21). These imperatives are given to the Christian to obey and these commands imply the Christian has both ABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY to obey these commands.

Saved and Born Again "Christians" are NOT the limit of His "servants".
Jews WHO remain obedient to their Law are "servants" of God, without the INDWELLING Spirit of Christ. <--- They shall be tried 10 days. IOW, Satan will have 10 days to search them out and cunningly attempt to sway them away from faithfulness TO God.

What does that have to do with Converted men IN Christ? Nothing.

The Scriptures are written addressing EVERYONE. What applies to a Jew, remaining under the Law, does not apply to a Converted Gentile.

God does not obey these commands for the Christian while the Christians sits idly by.

Who said or Impled a Saved and Born again mans walk in the spirit means to sit idly by?

Christ's NEW TESTAMENT command to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38) is to all men.

No kidding. Who said otherwise.
Being Converted deal with AFTER a man has accomplished that command....why are you going backwards to what is already been established?

And the Jews Jesus came to seek and save would be saved by obeying Christ's command as many Jews did there in Acts 2 on that day of Pentecost.

And? That is already established.
So also already established is NOT ALL Jews of Jesus' day or the Apostles day, became Saved and Born again, nor TODAY.

No one can be saved by keeping the OLD TESTAMENT as Paul says "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..' Gal 3:11

Correct. The Law does not Justify a man. The Lord Justifies a man.

Rev 2:10-11 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. ."

Jesus is speaking to Christians at the church in Smyrna.

The Spirit is speaking to Jews, (v-9) some whom are converted and some who are not.

He "THAT" overcometh? <--- that is to a man NOT Converted.

A Converted man HAS ALREADY "overcome" The wicked one. He does NOT need to be tested to SEE IF he will overcome. It's already accomplished for a converted man!

Some observations.

You are implying a man KEEPING his received Salvation is conditional ON the mans power.

I disagree.

Abraham was justified by God and being justified was a process Abraham went through.

Abraham was deemed Righteous / Saved by the Power of God, FOR Abraham's unyielding Faithfulness TO God.

Again, my point was Abraham being reckoned righteous, justified was a PROCESS and no one has shown otherwise in that they cannot point to a verse where Abraham was justified in one quick instant in time by having faith only.

Men are NOT NATURALLY BORN IN BELIEF IN GOD.
Men go through a PROCESS. It is called hearing, learning, reading, FINDING OUT ABOUT GOD!

The Lord is not GOING THRU a Process!!
The Lord is PATIENTLY WAITING for a man TO Finish "his process" of Learning about God and DECIDING to believe and COMMIT TO HIM or not.

The Lord ALREADY KNOWS what the man WILL DECIDE! It is the man who DOES NOT YET KNOW...........UNTIL hears, learns, grows, matures, and IF and WHEN the man DECIDES to SUBMIT to the Lord.....He does. The man has COMPLETED "his process" of deciding.

WHEN the man DOES solicite the Lord ...
The Lord doesn't "PROCESS" anything...thinking and wondering....He QUICKLY Converts the man!

Learn to divide the Word of Truth.
The ENTIRE Bible is NOT "ABOUT" Christians or TO "saved and born again Converted Men", by whatever title they call themselves.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

No - it isn't.
Initial salvation doesn't mean a THING

Fascinating ~

You have an "INITIAL" Salvation given you, WITH "Conditions" for YOU to KEEP It.

Well that is not what Scripture teaches.

A Converted man has RECEIVE Salvation ONCE and forever and CHRIST'S Indwelling Power KEEPS the man unto Him Forever.

unless you cooperate with God's grace and remain faithful to the end.

That would be appropriate for a man UNDER the Law. He does NOT have the Spirit of Christ's Power IN him......seems that also applies to Catholics.

So you are NOT a NEW Creature IN Christ, but rather, by your own efforts you attempt to REMAIN faithful. A catholic UNDER Jewish Law? Relying on your own power?

Yipes.

It's about God's continual work in me.

How is God Working IN YOU IF your are not Converted ?

When a Christian sins -

How about speaking to the Spiritual aspect instead of using Titles?

What about when a Saved and Born Again Converted man SINS (ie Rejects God)...

Oh Wait. That is NOT Possible. A Saved and Born Again Converted man, IS Kept Faithful to the Lord FOREVER, By the Lords Indwelling Power.

You could just as easily turn away completely and follow your OWN will instead of His and be LOST.

Uh huh....a man WHO IS NOT Saved, Not Born Again, Not Converted, Not a new Creature......yes, he Can turn away....

But a Converted New Creature....can NEVER turn away.

New Creatures ARE SAVED, ARE BORN AGAIN, ARE CONVERTED.....they are NOT Earning their way into Gods Kingdom BY "cooperating" are "you" say.

 

[APAK]

Ummmm, first of all - ALL of the initial steps you listed require our cooperation (in RED) - so there goes Sola Fide right OUT the window. Some of the steps you listed regarding simple "belief" are accomplished by the DEMONS themselves (James 2:19) - so don't put too much trust in belief without obedience.

Secondly - your claim that after being born again, we are "sinners no more" is an anti-Biblical LIE.
We are sinners as long as we are on this earth and in these bodies (1 John 1:8). I don't know if one SINGLE Protestant Father or credible scholar who would agree with you on that one.

Finally - NOWHERE do the Scriptures tell us that we cannot lose our secure place with God.
They warn us of the exact opposite
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
. . .

You did not understand or did not care what I wrote judging from your response. What a shame. Like we are of quite different spirits...so be it.

Salvation is a tough nut for you to understand I now see. As you said you are parrot (or a robot) for your church, who I suppose has all the answers for your life and destiny. So you would or do place your own faith and life in your church, ONLY?

Have you started reading any of my commentaries under the thread 'Seemingly Anti-OSAS scriptures' via the Theology route?

If not, there you can continue posting and trashing these writings as well with you typical cryptic statements, and bolded and underlined words that do appeal to me in the least.

Say, do you want me to write your responses to them for you now? I know your writing/responses that well I bet I can write them for you now. You are so predictable and crass in them, that you actually discourage any feedback from others.

My advise is that you lack basic knowledge in the word of God.

You might want to dig into the word a little more and learn something 'new' of the truth.

Just saying, and just my opinion.

I'm guessing you think I'm wrong as usual and you are always right.

It's nuts isn't it?...anyway have a great week BOL...Jesus loves you and I do too


Bless you,


APAK

 

[Taken]

You did not understand or did not care what I wrote judging from your response. What a shame. Like we are of quite different spirits...so be it.

Salvation is a tough nut for you to understand I now see. As you said you are parrot (or a robot) for your church, who I suppose has all the answers for your life and destiny. So you would or do place your own faith and life in your church, ONLY?

Have you started reading any of my commentaries under the thread 'Seemingly Anti-OSAS scriptures' via the Theology route?

If not, there you can continue posting and trashing these writings as well with you typical cryptic statements, and bolded and underlined words that do appeal to me in the least.

Say, do you want me to write your responses to them for you now? I know your writing/responses that well I bet I can write them for you now. You are so predictable and crass in them, that you actually discourage any feedback from others.

My advise is that you lack basic knowledge in the word of God.

You might want to dig into the word a little more and learn something 'new' of the truth.

Just saying, and just my opinion.

I'm guessing you think I'm wrong as usual and you are always right.

It's nuts isn't it?...anyway have a great week BOL...Jesus loves you and I do too


Bless you,


APAK

I agree.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest: You created a 'different' Romans 6:23 that is not in scripture. Why did you do this?

(Rom 6:23) " For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. " (NEV)

Why did you omit the positive part of the verse, the free gift of God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord? It is attached to the verse for a hopeful reason.

Because the positive part of the verse does not apply to the sinner that continues to impenitently live in sin.....as adultery.

The wages of sin is death and that means any sin committed by anyone who continues impenitently in sin as the person I gave in my scenario. And Romans 6:23 does not allow for exceptions therefore one must create a verse out of thin air that says "the wages of sin is eternal life for some".

It is saying that if we sin in our lives (no matter if we steal a pen from work, have mental sex, get drunk, etc) and we never accepted this free gift of life, we spiritually die and is lost upon death. I did accept this gift of life and now I live to eternal life and do not live in sin anymore. How say you? I do not take this matter lightly, for you and me..

I do not find in the Bible where 'accepting this free gift" is an UNconditional one and done thing do in an instance of time when a person has 'faith only'. The gift of eternal life is conditional upon one having an obedient faith. Logically therefore one must continue to meet the condition if he is to have the gift of eternal life in the world to come (Luke 18:30). Again, one must make up a verse out of thin air that teaches one can quit meeting the condition yet still have eternal life in the world to come.

Gal 5:19-21 is for those that have not accepted the free gift of life and still practice or make a lifestyle of sin with no guilt of remorse, Ernest.

Again, the Christian in my scenario that ended up running off with his neighbors wife and lived and died impenitently in adultery falls into those of Galatians 5:19-21. This verse also makes NO EXCEPTIONS for it does not say "some adulterers will inherit the kingdom of God while other adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God." ALL adulterers, none lacking, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you saved and know that you have salvation Ernest? I need to know because I want you to know his son and life if you don't. You are too precious to him, believe me.

I will pray for you Ernest...


Bless you,

APAK

A person can know he is saved if he remains faithfully obedient to the Lord. Paul KNEW he would be saved for he knew he had "fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" and because of this life long faithfulness "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness".

The crown of righteousness is not given for some unknown or capricious reasons but the text tells us it is given "henceforth" to his life long process of fighting a good fight, finishing the course and keeping the faith.


His salvation was a process up until he died. He was faithful unto death per Revelations 2:10 for he did not quit the fight, did not quit running the course, did not quit the faith.

Your position is that Paul could have quit all of this and yet still be saved?


Are you Calvinist in what you believe?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Must? Or DOES?

A Converted man does not KEEP himself "IN" Christ....the POWER of Christ "IN" the man Keeps the man "IN" Christ.

One is in Christ by choice therefore can leave Christ by choice.

Again, there is no verse(s) that says when a man believes it will be impossible for him to ever stop believing.

Sure. I have said nothing to the contrary.



Pryor to "a man" RECEIVING Salvation...
"The mans" Conditions of heartfelt belief AND Calling on the Lords Name....is THAT mans Condition to meet.

ONCE ^ That occurs. The Condition of REMAINING "IN" Belief/Faithfulness/to Christ;
IS a Condition the Lords Indwelling POWER meets. (Not the power of the man)

Again, you give no book chapter and verse to back this up.

No. A man "IN" Christ, CAN NOT Stop Believing. He is KEPT in Belief/Faithfulness TO the Lord, BY the Lord.

Do you realize a man IS soliciting the Lord, Asking Him to TAKE CONTROL of his natural Life and Convert him to a NEW Creature?

Men can not Convert themselves, they are Asking the Lord to Convert them. When a natural man Asks the Lord to Convert him...
Do you think the Lords Wonders, hummm, gee, What if a man changes his MIND and later does not believe?

Of course He doesn't. He knows all things.
And besides, the Lord is not LISTENING to a mans MIND.....He is LISTENING for a heartfelt Confession.

And part of the Actual Conversion IS Circumcision of the mans HEART.

SO, "IF" by some oddball chance the Lords Power within the man was not sufficient enough TO KEEP the man IN FAITHFULNESS......THE OLD HEART that solicited the Lord......IS CUT OFF, dead and gone.

How would an OLD DEAD CUT OFF circumcised Heart, "change" and again become alive to say "it no longer believes" ?



THAT IS TRUE.........UNTIL.......THE MAN IS CONVERTED. THE OLD natural heart that confessed IS Circumcised, CUT OFF.

It is replaced with a NEW HEART, for a NEW Creature. A Heart that IS TRUE to God and filled with Gods Word of Truth.



Of course there is no vague verse to a vague proposition. It is not ABOUT Christians. It IS ABOUT Converted men. Many people CALL themselves Christians WHO ARE NOT CONVERTED. Many people believe WHO are NOT Converted.

Conversion IS the PARAMOUNT KEY, regardless if people call themselves "a Christian" or not.



Warning about disbelief has nothing to do with your premise of a believer.

Of course Scripture warns of Disbelief.
It also Warns of men who are NOT Converted.
Matt 18:3



You are without understanding.



Uh huh.





Both

IF you were converted.
Were you forgiven FOR VIOLATING the Jewish Law of Adultry?

Salvation given a man BY THE Lord, IS "part" of the gifts given a man FOR Electing to BECOME Converted.

Forgiveness OF the mans SINS....is also 'part' of the gifts given a man FOR Electing to BECOME Converted.

WHY would Adultry BE a SIN unto a man AFTER Conversion?

Do you KNOW WHY Adultry was a Law given Hebrews/Jews?

As with ALL their LAWS, they were BEING prepared in their Natural Bodies, to become Converted and Transformed, TO NEW Supernatural Creatures.

The ONLY "MARRIAGE" for a Transformed supernatural Creature is "TO" Christ.

A Converted man IS ALREADY prepared for his ONLY ONE "marriage" ceremony "TO" Christ. And By Christ's POWER such a man CAN NOT "commit" "Adultry" (sin) Against the Lord.

The Man CHOSE/ELECTED, to be faithful and true to the Lord ONLY, and the Man ELECTED to GIVE the Lord Authority TO KEEP him unto the Lord ONLY, BY HIS POWER, which IS supreme and unfailing.

God Bless,
Taken

sigh...unless I missed it, nowhere in this long post did you give me just one book chapter and verse to back up anything you posted. You give me your opinion. Show me a book chapter and verse that you think proves that it is impossible for a Christian to quit believing, then we can discuss that verse instead of me taking a lot of my time responding to one person's opinion.

One verse Hebrews 3:12 kills your opinion on this issue.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, learniing is a process one goes through to find out things about God and what is in God's mind that He has revealed to man.

But becoming and remaining saved is also a process and you have not proven otherwise.

Again, can you prove to us that Abraham being reckoned righteous/justified was not a process but rather something that happened in one quick instance of time when he had "faith only"?

 

[BreadOfLife]

You did not understand or did not care what I wrote judging from your response. What a shame. Like we are of quite different spirits...so be it.

Salvation is a tough nut for you to understand I now see. As you said you are parrot (or a robot) for your church, who I suppose has all the answers for your life and destiny. So you would or do place your own faith and life in your church, ONLY?

Have you started reading any of my commentaries under the thread 'Seemingly Anti-OSAS scriptures' via the Theology route?

If not, there you can continue posting and trashing these writings as well with you typical cryptic statements, and bolded and underlined words that do appeal to me in the least.

Say, do you want me to write your responses to them for you now? I know your writing/responses that well I bet I can write them for you now. You are so predictable and crass in them, that you actually discourage any feedback from others.

My advise is that you lack basic knowledge in the word of God.
You might want to dig into the word a little more and learn something 'new' of the truth.

Just saying, and just my opinion.
I'm guessing you think I'm wrong as usual and you are always right.
It's nuts isn't it?...anyway have a great week BOL...Jesus loves you and I do too

Bless you,

APAK

I read another wordy diatribe. What I DON'T see here is an explanation or Scriptural proof for your FALSE claim that born again believers are "no longer" sinners.
This is an anti-Biblical claim - all of your personal attacks, notwithstanding . . .