Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

[BreadOfLife]

Ditto.
First of all I NEVER SAID "WE" can never Walk Away.

I SAID A CONVERTED man CAN NEVER WALK AWAY.

Yet you CAN'T seem to show me ANY Scripture to substantiate this man-made invention . . .

Your use of a man-made word, that YOU assign TO MEN you do not know, MEANS NOTHING, PROVES NOTHING.

Sooooo, you are rejecting 2 Tim. 3:16, which says:
ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The HOLY SPIRIT inspired that the word "Epignosis" be written down.
This wasn't an invention of man.

Whether YOU like it or not - "EPIGNOSIS" was the word that GOD Himself breathed out in Scripture.

Yes I have noticed, already addressed the long list you keep repeating.

What you hold in YOUR HAND is of ZERO consequence.
He WHO has become Converted IS FOREVER in the Lords Hand. You have been told and shown the Scripture.

Your choice to reject the Truth, and make excuses, will be a consequence unto YOU, not me.
NOT ONE of your umpteen repeated verses speak of a Converted man LOSING his Conversion.
Your thoughts, your words, most applicable to you. You own it.
IF I should become angry, I'll let you know, in the meantime, the truth is, I find you stiff-necked and a self imposed false teacher, who makes false claims for others.

Until YOU, in your spiritually-prideful blindness can come to terms with the fact that a man with "Epignosis" of Christ (born again) can LOSE his salvation - you are rejecting the Word of God that says he CAN.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And the point is that God NEVER stops loving us - even if WE stop loving HIM.
That is true love - but it doesn't meant that we cannot walk away from him.

That is why the 17 things listed in Rom 8:35, 38-39 covers all sin,

even present and future and also demons that tempt us into sin...

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger
sword?
death nor life
neither angels nor demons,
neither the present nor the future
nor any powers
neither height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

NOWHERE does Scripture ever say that WE can't turn away from God.
In fact, as I have shown - it warns us over and over what will happen if we DO.

BOL, using figurative language as proof doesn't work. What happens is God disciplines and sanctifies us, Heb 12.

Those last 2 terms in the definition of "Faith" speak to our cooperation.

Being "faithful" is DOING what we're supposed to do. It's not a "feeling".
Just as a spouse is to work at being faithful - so must a follower of Christ work at being faithful.

Cooperation as in works or believing? James 2 is not about losing salvation, rather is about lack of Godly righteousness as you agreed to.

 

[Taken]

First you say that I'm making "false" statements

That is CORRECT.

by pointing out the fact that you deny that apostasy exists -

That is not a fact, but rather a made up lie.

THEN

you make the asinine comment in RED.

The Converted can never walk away.

This ONE comment proves that you deny that apostasy exists.

HOW IGNORANT!!!!!

That does not claim or prove apostasy does not exist!!

How dense! Apostasy EXISTS....BUT IT DOES NOT APPLY TO A CONVERTED MAN .........
BECAUSE HE IS CONVERTED.....he is forever KEPT in faithfulness BY the Lords Power!!!

ONLY a born again believer can go into apostasy of faith.

Totally FALSE TEACHING.

A non-believer cannot become apostate in his faith because he never had it.

WOW, no kidding, and noone said they did!!

Allow me to educate you again:

LOL...you have not educated me. YOUR TEACHING IS FALSE and repeatedly been REJECTED......

Apostasy

is the repudiation (rejection of) a once-held belief.
Unless you deny that apostasy exists - then you MUST agree that born again Christians can walk away from God.

Psychobabble nonsense.

I am not subjected to or held to YOUR, unless, If, then, therefore.........

You are ILL education in what is and what is not applicable or WHY.

Your teaching has the LORDS INDWELLING Spirit sitting idol while the mans SINS and REJECTS God....<---RIDICULOUS!

Stop trying to teach and go learn the TRUTH....

A Converted man has GIVEN HIS LIFE TO THE LORD TO KEEP THE MAN CONVERTED BY THE INDWELLING LORDS POWER!

Duh....it's not TRICKY KNOWLEDGE.

It is your false DOCTRINE steeped from babyhood that your are born again without your knowledge of anything about God, that is your stumbling block. So, NOT WE, but ya likely you can Walk away. I am forever Kept IN Christ and He IN Me, by His Power, that I chose to submit to.

 

[Taken]

Abraham is an example used many times in the NT by both Paul and James.

From what you post above, are you admitting Abraham is NOT an example of justification by "faith only"?

Abraham had faith IN GOD.
The NEW COVENANT is for a man to HAVE FAITH IN the Lord AND GOD.

Are you trying to say Abraham had FAITH IN Jesus? How so, since that information was NOT YET GIVEN Abraham.

A man CAN SIMPLY HAVE BELIEF....
Faith is A Gift from God .... FOR the man believing.

A man KEEPS believing.....his faith is increased.

A man STOPS believing.....his gift of faith is no longer given Him. He falls from faith.

Abraham KEPT believing until the end of his life....and is Accounted a saint.

Some others in the OT ALSO kept believing until the end of their life.....they too are Accounted as saints.

Some others in the OT (and NT) stopped believing.....they are neither saints or converted.

Since Jesus arrived, men can BECOME CONVERTED, before the end of their life, BY and THROUGH believing in God (like OT and NT Jews) and ALSO believing IN Jesus CHRIST; GODS Son and Messiah and Quickening Spirit and Savior.....

A converted man does not WAIT and SEE IF he is AcceptABLE to become saved, and IF his Works are Acceptable for him to become saved..........

His belief, His Faith, His subjection of giving his life to the Lord, prompts the Lord Converting the man ONCE and FOREVER, and kept so, by the indwelling Power of God, who IS Christ.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I showed book chapter and verses where a Christian can become unfaithful and fall way from Christ and be eternally lost.

You did not present ONE scripture that mentioned a Christian.

Someone calling themselves or others a Christian IS NOT the Requirement TO BECOME Converted.

This is why the Bible gives multiple commandments in warnings, heedings and admonishments to Christians

IF you want to discuss SPIRITUAL things, KEPT in context. ALL of Jesus' Apostles were JEWS sent out to TEACH Jews. Why call them Christians? THEY Don't.

Paul was sent out to Teach the Gentiles.
The Gentiles were being taught about God and Jesus Christ the Messiah of God.
The Jews were being taught THEIR MESSIAH has arrived.

It is the Gentiles who have primarily Adopted the title Christian, AFTER some Gentiles began calling the JEWS who followed Jesus' teaching....Christians.

One calling themselves a Christian....does NOT equal to or mean, they are saved or born again.

If you are speaking of Saved and Born Again men.......Converted will suffice and be in proper context.

There are Plenty of "self-proclaimed" Christians who ARE NOT "Converted".

There are Some Jews, WHO have Converted, who are NOT CALLED CHRISITANS.

{QUOTE]about remaining faithful and the consequence if they do not. The Bible also gives multiple examples of those that fell away and become lost, Judas, Simon, some in Galatia that had fallen (past tense) from grace, etc, etc.[/QUOTE]

ANY MAN can believe IN GOD receive measures of faith and FALL.......FROM BELIEVING, WHICH IS ALSO TO FALL FROM FAITH.

ANY MAN CAN BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE ALSO IN CHRIST, RECEIVE measure of fAITH, and FALL from believing and fall from faith.

THE EXCEPTION IS, a man CONVERTED BY Christ the Lord Jesus......Such a man IS Forever KePT IN FAITH by HIs Power.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is why the 17 things listed in Rom 8:35, 38-39 covers all sin,

even present and future and also demons that tempt us into sin...

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger
sword?
death nor life
neither angels nor demons,
neither the present nor the future
nor any powers
neither height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

Uh-huh, but it's about God's LOVE. It's NOT about salvation.
God loves even those who AREN'T saved (John 3:16).

BOL, using figurative language as proof doesn't work. What happens is God disciplines and sanctifies us, Heb 12.

What "figurative" language are you talking about??
The following verses explicitly talk about about LOSING your security with God.
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Nothing "figurative" about them . . .

Cooperation as in works or believing? James 2 is not about losing salvation, rather is about lack of Godly righteousness as you agreed to.

WHO said that James 2 is about "losing" anything??

James 2 is about what TRUE FAITH is - and its not just about belief.
It involves obedience. It explicitly says that without obedience of faith - all you have is what the DEMONS have - and that is "belief".

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is CORRECT.
That is not a fact, but rather a made up lie.
The Converted can never walk away.
HOW IGNORANT!!!!!
That does not claim or prove apostasy does not exist!!
How dense! Apostasy EXISTS....BUT IT DOES NOT APPLY TO A CONVERTED MAN .........
BECAUSE HE IS CONVERTED.....he is forever KEPT in faithfulness BY the Lords Power!!!
Totally FALSE TEACHING.
WOW, no kidding, and noone said they did!!
LOL...you have not educated me. YOUR TEACHING IS FALSE and repeatedly been REJECTED......

Psychobabble nonsense.

I am not subjected to or held to YOUR, unless, If, then, therefore.........
You are ILL education in what is and what is not applicable or WHY.
Your teaching has the LORDS INDWELLING Spirit sitting idol while the mans SINS and REJECTS God....<---RIDICULOUS!
Stop trying to teach and go learn the TRUTH....
A Converted man has GIVEN HIS LIFE TO THE LORD TO KEEP THE MAN CONVERTED BY THE INDWELLING LORDS POWER!
Duh....it's not TRICKY KNOWLEDGE.
It is your false DOCTRINE steeped from babyhood that your are born again without your knowledge of anything about God, that is your stumbling block. So, NOT WE, but ya likely you can Walk away. I am forever Kept IN Christ and He IN Me, by His Power, that I chose to submit to.

And like ALL of your other long-winded posts - this one boils down to simple denial.
simply because you refuse to accept the definition of "Apostasy" - you call it "Psychobabble nonsense".

As I schooled you before - Apostasy is the repudiation (rejection) of a once-held religious belief.
ONLY a true, born again follower of Christ with an Epignosis of Him can apostatize against Him.
- You have NO way of disproving Epignosis.
- You have NO way of disproving Apostasy.
- You have NO Scriptural evidence for claiming that a man cannot lose his salvation.

Because of this - your false doctrine of OSAS come collapsing down around you like a house of cards.

How's that for "psychobabble nonsense" . . .

 

[Taken]

1. Yet you CAN'T seem to show

Already showed you repeatedly, the Holy Spirit is forever with a Converted man.
And also the man is with the Holy SPirit forever.

You want to teach otherwise, that's you.

I can not UNDERSTAND forever for you.

[/QUOTE]
Sooooo, you are rejecting 2 Tim. 3:16, [/QUOTE]

Sooooooooooo Mr. False Accuser....
I said no such thing!

The HOLY SPIRIT inspired that the word "Epignosis" be written down.

Shocking....really??? The Holy Spirit inspired men to Write down True and Correct Knowledge.......WOW Stop the presses....THE BIBLE IS INSPIRED TO BE WRITTEN TRUE AND CORRECT.......LOL

What a ignorant web you keep trying to weave.

I have never said anything to the Contrary of Scripture being true and correct Knowledge!

Whether YOU like it or not - "EPIGNOSIS" was the word that GOD Himself breathed out in Scripture.

Whether you like it or not....your false claims toward me and your irrelevant tangents are of NO consequence to me.....and actually quite boring.

Until YOU, in your spiritually-prideful blindness can come to terms with the fact that a man with "Epignosis" of Christ (born again) can LOSE his salvation - you are rejecting the Word of God that says he CAN.

Until you come to the Truth.....oh right...it's true and correct knowledge IN Scripture for ANYONE to read.....And Choose you yourself to become Converted.....and forever Kept BY and IN Christ.....you can remain the same old man who Sins....Preaching men who ARE Converted are Wrong...And keep pretending men are following YOU and YOUR teaching.


I am already forever IN Christ and He IN me.
I have a teacher, and IT AIN"T you.
I can speak for my self, without YOU making up lies and speaking for me.
I am bored with your endless rants of your misguided claims.
I am bored with your endless LACK of mindful and spiritual understanding.
I am bored with your endless Condecending connotations.

Why not hop over to a Catholic thread and edify one another with your rejection of Conversion being Once and Forever?

 

[Heb 13:8]

Uh-huh, but it's about God's LOVE. It's NOT about salvation.
God loves even those who AREN'T saved (John 3:16).

BOL, the elect are born again believers only. Rom 8:31-39 is speaking to believers in Christ only. Agape love is for believers only.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

and if you're a nonbeliever, you're actually considered an enemy of God.....

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Phl 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

What "figurative" language are you talking about??
The following verses explicitly talk about about LOSING your security with God.
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Nothing "figurative" about them . . .

and all them have been taken out of context. Without even reading them, 5 of those passages are figurative.

WHO said that James 2 is about "losing" anything??

James 2 is about what TRUE FAITH is - and its not just about belief.
It involves obedience. It explicitly says that without obedience of faith - all you have is what the DEMONS have - and that is "belief".

BOL, a believer in Christ who has true faith can lack in Godly righteousness. Ya know that bit, since we live in a fallen world and we fall short every day?

 

[Taken]

And like ALL of your other long-winded posts - this one boils down to simple denial.
simply because you refuse to accept the definition of "Apostasy" - you call it "Psychobabble nonsense".

No, I did not.

As I schooled you before - .

False.

ONLY a true, born again follower of Christ with an Epignosis of Him can apostatize against Him.

False.

Because of this - your false doctrine of OSAS come collapsing down around you like a house of cards.

Because of your proclaimed pseudo baby "born again" ceremony, you can't recognize the truth.

Acts 3:19. REPENT and BECOME CONVERTED...

Ya sure as a baby "you" repented before your pseudo "born again" ceremony.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, the elect are born again believers only. Rom 8:31-39 is speaking to believers in Christ only. Agape love is for believers only.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

and if you're a nonbeliever, you're actually considered an enemy of God.....

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Phl 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

WE make OURSELVES enemies of God. God doesn't make enemies of US.
John 3:16
For God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

and all them have been taken out of context. Without even reading them, 5 of those passages are figurative.

No - they're explicit. Nothing has been taken out of context here.
If it has - then the onus is on YOU to show it.

BOL, a believer in Christ who has true faith can lack in Godly righteousness. Ya know that bit, since we live in a fallen world and we fall short every day?

Pay attention.
We're talking about Eternal Security here. NOTHING in Scripture teaches this man-made doctrine.[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, I did not.
False.
False.

Because of your proclaimed pseudo baby "born again" ceremony, you can't recognize the truth.
Acts 3:19. REPENT and BECOME CONVERTED...
Ya sure as a baby "you" repented before your pseudo "born again" ceremony.

Like I said - until you can reconcile your false beliefs with epignosis - the scales will remain in your eyes.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Already showed you repeatedly, the Holy Spirit is forever with a Converted man.
And also the man is with the Holy SPirit forever.
You want to teach otherwise, that's you.
I can not UNDERSTAND forever for you.
Sooooooooooo Mr. False Accuser....
I said no such thing!

Shocking....really??? The Holy Spirit inspired men to Write down True and Correct Knowledge.......WOW Stop the presses....THE BIBLE IS INSPIRED TO BE WRITTEN TRUE AND CORRECT.......LOL

What a ignorant web you keep trying to weave.
I have never said anything to the Contrary of Scripture being true and correct Knowledge!

Whether you like it or not....your false claims toward me and your irrelevant tangents are of NO consequence to me.....and actually quite boring.

Until you come to the Truth.....oh right...it's true and correct knowledge IN Scripture for ANYONE to read.....And Choose you yourself to become Converted.....and forever Kept BY and IN Christ.....you can remain the same old man who Sins....Preaching men who ARE Converted are Wrong...And keep pretending men are following YOU and YOUR teaching.

I am already forever IN Christ and He IN me.
I have a teacher, and IT AIN"T you.
I can speak for my self, without YOU making up lies and speaking for me.
I am bored with your endless rants of your misguided claims.
I am bored with your endless LACK of mindful and spiritual understanding.
I am bored with your endless Condecending connotations.

Why not hop over to a Catholic thread and edify one another with your rejection of Conversion being Once and Forever?

Tell you what - since you keep insisting that you have given me Scriptural proof for your false, man-made doctrine of OSAS - PLEASE point me to the post so I can read it.

If you can show me the post where you proved this from Scripture - I will concede defeat and recant my argument.

 

[APAK]

Ummmmm, I never said that everybody will be saved. I said that it is His WILL that all be saved.
Big difference.

Salvation IS a process - and Scripture is clear about this (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14, Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Initial salvation comes with the grace to believe. However - true faith is NOT just belief. because James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS can do that.
True faith = Belief + Obedience (works).

Secondly - Baptism is for ALL in the family - including small children and infants (Acts 2:39). Just as circumcision brought a male child into the Covenant with God based on the faith of his parents - the SAME is true for Baptism. This was practiced and preached by the Early Church as having been passed on by the Apostles themselves - who ALSO baptized entire households based on the faith of the Heads of those households (Acts 10:44-48, Acts 16:23-33, 1 Cor. 1:16).

Salvation is a gift that needs to be nurtured and worked on because it can be LOST - just as faith can be lost.

BOL, I want to test your ‘salvation is a process’ theory by evaluation your scripture support, in its entirety. Let’s look at your ‘salvation is a process’ theory using your 11 ‘clear’ scripture passages you keep posting, without anyone really questioning them. It will take a few posts.

You said: “Salvation IS a process - and Scripture is clear about this (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14, Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).”

Quick commentaries on each:

Romans 5:1:

(Rom 5:1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; (NEV)

This verse of scripture speaks to when the gift of God as faith that justifies us to God is given as a one single event of salvation. The reborn person then has the peace of God, in Christ, within us. It is the key to salvation and the gift given or bestowed by God, as a one-time event. And further, this peace is unique that that no one or even self can provide. A saved person has this for the rest of their lives. BOL this verse has nothing to do with someone being in the process of salvation for the rest of their lives. Folks have been saved by the saving faith of God as a gift to them in one event. You cannot give the same gift continuously for the rest of your life. It then is not a single gift of faith for salvation that justifies us to God as scripture supports. You are inventing new scripture that says we are being given gifts of faith for many salvations throughout our lives. That makes no sense.

Romans 8:24:

(Rom 8:24) For in hope were we saved; but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? (NEV)

This verse points to the hope in our belief in accepting the gift of God that provide our initial faith as salvation, as one event. Again, folks have been saved in one miraculous event. It is not an on-going process. This verse does not mean that we have hoped all our lives and finally on our death bed we are saved or some other far -flung idea of sometime in the future. This hope is the true belief from our hearts that we believe in Jesus and the gospel at one time in our lives. God does not torture us and keep saying to us ‘I want to see more hope and dedication’ before I decide to gift this gift of mine that will save you. Thais is not the God of the Bible. This is the carnal and evil mind speaking that keeps the doubt of salvation alive; that you may not be ‘good’ enough for God.

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ..more of the reply

Eph 2:5-8:
(Eph 2:5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved!),
(Eph 2:6) and raised us up with him; and in Christ Jesus, has made us sit with him in the heavens.
(Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. (ALL NEV)

These verses points to salvation being only a single time event that made us spiritually alive, as previously we were spiritually dead in our sins. Verse 8 speaks of the grace of salvation and the gift of faith given for this single event. This is one of the clearest scripture verse (verse 8) you can find to let you know salvation is a single miraculous event of God giving us his faith and spirit in our lives.

1 Cor 1:4-9:

(1Co 1:4) I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus.
(1Co 1:5) That in everything you were enriched in him, in all utterance and all knowledge.
(1Co 1:6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
(1Co 1:7) so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 1:8) Who shall also confirm you to the end, unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 1:9) God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (ALL NEV)

Verse 4 starts out with thanking God for salvation (as a one-time event) given by the grace of God as spoken of in Eph 2:8, previously. WE are saved and thus have Jesus in our lives.

Verses 5-7 goes on to speak of the (gained over time or immediately at salvation) how one was/is gifted in the rich and ‘all’ knowledge in one’s words as one spoke/speaks to others of Christ and salvation. We now lack nothing, it goes on to say. We are gifted and blessed to continue this work as Jesus with confirm all this work when Jesus returns. And in verse 8 to know as assurance that God our Father is faithful in this matter of fellowship and work in Christ. This is the process of sanctification and the process of full conversion in our lives. Salvation is not a process as the necessary process of sanctification to complete conversion and perfection.

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ..continuing on with my reply to your post

2 Corinth 2:15

(2Co 2:15) For we are a sweet savour of Christ to God in those that are saved and in those that perish. (NEV)

Chapter 2, Verse 15 is about those saved folks and true believers that try to save other people. We are like a pleasant and appealing fragrance to God even though some we try and save reject the gospel and Christ and eventually spiritually die, as their default setting when they came into this world. If salvation was a process, there would be little time on earth to convert others?

2 Corinth 6:18 and 2 Corinth 7:1:

(2Co 6:18) and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty.
(2Co 7:1) Therefore beloved, having these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (ALL NEV)


You must go back to last verse in Chapter 6 to understand the context of this verse, as a minimum.

2 Corinth 6:18 refers to those after acquiring salvation that God is their Father ands we are his sons and daughters. What a blessing indeed. We are beloved as in 2 Corinth 7:1. The writer then wants to tell true believers to safeguard their physical bodies and spirits, by perfecting holiness with reverence to our Father.

This clearly says that sanctification (HOLINESS -separation) is the ongoing process that occurs after salvation, and this is where we cooperate with the gift of God for salvation as I pointed out in my last post to you. God is not our Father and we are not being perfected in sanctification (as I said in my last post to you) if we are not already saved, period.

Philipp 2:12:

(Php 2:12) So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.(NEV)

This is Paul again, saying to WORK OUT your salvation once you have gained it, by the one-time event. As I said before we do not work for as you are possibly suggesting over time, it is a salvation we already have. given by God. So, I don’t understand your type of non-biblical salvation as a life-long process thing.

Paul was emphatic and possessed high standards in holiness as he equated ‘working out’ salvation with the intensity and frequency of cooperation with the grace of salvation of God. He wanted every saved person to be intimately involved with God in the process of sanctification (holiness).

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ..more of my reply to your post on salvation is a process etc...

Heb 12:14

(Heb 12:14) Follow after peace with all men, and the holiness without which no one shall see the Lord. (NEV)

This is another verse speaking of a saved person continuing in the sanctification process and cooperating with the gift of God in one of the three major areas – pursuing peace.

Matt. 24:13

(Mat 24:3) And as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us, when shall these things be? And what is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
(Mat 24:6) And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. Ensure you are not alarmed, for this must happen- but the end is not yet.
(Mat 24:13) But he that endures to the end, the same shall be saved.
(Mat 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations- and then shall the end come.
(Mat 24:22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved- but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (ALL NEV)

Verse 13 speaks to the physical deliverance of tribulation saints when Christ returns. It has nothing to do with the saved person of this age, under grace. Nothing here about salvation is a process to do by men.

Rom. 5:9–10, (8-11)

(Rom 5:8) " But God commends His own love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. "
(Rom 5:9) " Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the anger of God through him. "
(Rom 5:10) " For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. "
(Rom 5:11) " And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (ALL NEV)


This passage acknowledges that we, as previous unbelievers and part of the unsaved were sinners, and not now. Even when we were sinners Christ died for us. We are much more than sinners today, we are justified by the blood of Jesus and made right and holy with God. We are saved by this justification and righteous. We got saved via one miraculous event and we are not BEING saved today as process. Maybe you are being processed for salvation at some future date?

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, I want to test your ‘salvation is a process’ theory by evaluation your scripture support, in its entirety. Let’s look at your ‘salvation is a process’ theory using your 11 ‘clear’ scripture passages you keep posting, without anyone really questioning them. It will take a few posts.

You said: “Salvation IS a process - and Scripture is clear about this (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14, Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).”

Quick commentaries on each:

Romans 5:1:

(Rom 5:1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; (NEV)

This verse of scripture speaks to when the gift of God as faith that justifies us to God is given as a one single event of salvation. The reborn person then has the peace of God, in Christ, within us. It is the key to salvation and the gift given or bestowed by God, as a one-time event. And further, this peace is unique that that no one or even self can provide. A saved person has this for the rest of their lives. BOL this verse has nothing to do with someone being in the process of salvation for the rest of their lives. Folks have been saved by the saving faith of God as a gift to them in one event. You cannot give the same gift continuously for the rest of your life. It then is not a single gift of faith for salvation that justifies us to God as scripture supports. You are inventing new scripture that says we are being given gifts of faith for many salvations throughout our lives. That makes no sense.

Romans 8:24:

(Rom 8:24) For in hope were we saved; but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? (NEV)

This verse points to the hope in our belief in accepting the gift of God that provide our initial faith as salvation, as one event. Again, folks have been saved in one miraculous event. It is not an on-going process. This verse does not mean that we have hoped all our lives and finally on our death bed we are saved or some other far -flung idea of sometime in the future. This hope is the true belief from our hearts that we believe in Jesus and the gospel at one time in our lives. God does not torture us and keep saying to us ‘I want to see more hope and dedication’ before I decide to gift this gift of mine that will save you. Thais is not the God of the Bible. This is the carnal and evil mind speaking that keeps the doubt of salvation alive; that you may not be ‘good’ enough for God.

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

The quick answer is that NEITHER of the verses you presented talk about the fact that people can choose to walk away from Christ after being born again. I gave SEVERAL passages that show this to be true.

Cherry-picking Scripture to satisfy your man-made doctrines is NEVER a good idea because you wind up having to cancel out a lot of other verses do NOT support your view.

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ..more of my reply to your theory of salvation

1 Cor. 3:12–15 (9-16, 23)

(1Co 3:9) For we are God's fellow-workers. You are God's husbandry, God's building.
(1Co 3:10) According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another builds upon it. But let each man take care how he builds upon it!
(1Co 3:11) For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(1Co 3:12) But if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble,
(1Co 3:13) each man's work shall be revealed. For the day of judgment shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire itself shall test each man's work of what sort it is.
(1Co 3:14) If anyone's work shall endure which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
(1Co 3:15) If anyone's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as having passed through fire.
(1Co 3:16) Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1Co 3:23) And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. (ALL NEV)


This passage of scripture speaks to saved folks again the potential loss of rewards and not loss of salvation. And it does not speak of salvation as a process controlled by man.

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife ..more of my reply to your post on salvation is a process etc...

Heb 12:14

(Heb 12:14) Follow after peace with all men, and the holiness without which no one shall see the Lord. (NEV)

This is another verse speaking of a saved person continuing in the sanctification process and cooperating with the gift of God in one of the three major areas – pursuing peace.

Matt. 24:13

(Mat 24:3) And as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us, when shall these things be? And what is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
(Mat 24:6) And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. Ensure you are not alarmed, for this must happen- but the end is not yet.
(Mat 24:13) But he that endures to the end, the same shall be saved.
(Mat 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations- and then shall the end come.
(Mat 24:22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved- but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (ALL NEV)

Verse 13 speaks to the physical deliverance of tribulation saints when Christ returns. It has nothing to do with the saved person of this age, under grace. Nothing here about salvation is a process to do by men.

Rom. 5:9–10, (8-11)

(Rom 5:8) " But God commends His own love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. "
(Rom 5:9) " Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the anger of God through him. "
(Rom 5:10) " For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. "
(Rom 5:11) " And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (ALL NEV)


This passage acknowledges that we, as previous unbelievers and part of the unsaved were sinners, and not now. Even when we were sinners Christ died for us. We are much more than sinners today, we are justified by the blood of Jesus and made right and holy with God. We are saved by this justification and righteous. We got saved via one miraculous event and we are not BEING saved today as process. Maybe you are being processed for salvation at some future date?

Another post on this post of yours is forthcoming.....APAK

No - these verses show that the person must COOPERATE or lose out.
They show that salvation is conditional - and anything that has conditions is a process.