Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

[BreadOfLife]

BOL:

I'm sorry you feel you have to resort to labelling people as haters; either of you or hate what you say. Your writing on this subject of salvation is mostly pure garage, based on your own creations or from your doctrines, if you really want to know. I do not take your truth seriously.

I have confidence in my Lord and the spirit of God as evidence of my salvation. I continue to work out my salvation in truth. Can you say the same?

Expect to placed off-guard more frequently when you least expect it. In other words, make sure you know what you spit out as truth, folks may take you to task more directly.

I question whether you really know the Lord by your words and tone alone let alone some of your beliefs. No believer that I know would resort to the tone and type of language you use in sharing the truth in love and peace. Maybe that's not your intention anyway.

Are you still stuck on the word 'epignosis?' Try praying about it . It may extend your epignosis of the truth. Might humble you a bit as well.

Bless you, and have a great Dad day if it is applicable

APAK

First of all - I haven't labelled anybody as a "hater".

Secondly - as I have told you before - these are not MY words, but the position of Christ's Church.
I'm just an obedient servant. - and I'll take the Church's position over YOURS any day of the week.

Jesus told the leaders of His Church that the Holy spirit would guide that Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). He didn't make that promise to YOU or any other individual.

As for the "type of language" you claim I am using that is unbefitting a Christian - can you be more specific?
I haven't used ANY off-color language. As for my "demeanor" - i am simply defending the truth where lies and myths have taken root.

Finally - it's not ME who is "stuck" on Epignosis. It's all of YOU who keep denying the definition. The Scriptures clearly speak of those having an "Epignosis" of Christ and the danger of them falling away and LOSING their secure position with God. That is an extremely explicit proof that OSAS is a man-made fallacy . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

And the point here is that His love for us NEVER stops - whether WE abandon Him or not.
It doesn't mean, however, that we will be saved.

Well, you're assuming Rom 8:31-39 is not referring to salvation, but it is. You would have to prove that walking away is not a condition of the 17 things mentioned in those passages.

Are you willing to break down the 17 conditions as you see it? If you can't do that then you are adding to scripture by saying, "It doesn't mean, however, that we will be saved."

Remember we had discussed that Heb 6 and Heb 10 is figurative language in regards to maturity in believers? Well, take a look at the definition of discipline.........

paideia: the rearing of a child, training, discipline
Original Word: παιδεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paideia
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-di'-ah)
Short Definition: discipline
Definition: discipline; training and education of children, hence: instruction; chastisement, correction.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3809 paideía (from 3811 /paideúō, see there) – properly, instruction that trains someone to reach full development (maturity).

God's justice is part of His love.

Yes, and believers are justified and forgiven at the cross BOL. God's wrath is no longer for them.

Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (dikaiosuné), and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.

So, instead of explaining how it is "figurative" - you'll just run the other way again?
That's what I thought . . .

One verse at a time please.

And NOTHING in Romans 8 speaks about Eternal Security.
In fact - the ONLY way Eternal Security can work is through OUR cooperation.

To you it doesn't because cooperation is works, no? To the believer, we obey and cooperate because of what Jesus already did FOR US on the cross. He died FOR US out of LOVE. This is where the religious fall in error. They can't process that condition of love, so if they don't cooperate every day His love stops.

However, His love doesn't stop when we are sinning or disobedient, it continues with discipline and sanctification. It's the power of God that saves us because Christ died for sinners and not for the Pharisee who is forever self righteous.

The finished work of the cross is a result of love on His behalf, not cooperation on our behalf...

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Without our cooperation - there is NO security because we have refused God.
God's love, which is unconditonal - and Salvation, which is conditional are two completely different things.

and only God can change your mind. are people praying for you BOL?

 

[Taken]

The cherry-picking YOU and others here do is simply an act of desperation.

Desperation? Ha, that's funny.

And per usual you are without understanding.

Anybody can cherry-pick verses to create ANY doctrine they want.

Again, you lack understanding. Rightly Dividing the Word of God has NOTHING to do with "creating a doctrine".... pfft!!

I clearly said it has to do with "APPLICABILITY" ... seriously do you not know the difference?

For example - Psalm 14:1 can be cherry-picked to formulated a doctrine that God doesn't exist because it says, "There is no God."

LOL. YOu attempting to CHANGE the point then disagree with it is a typical MO with you and irrelevant.

The same is true for all of the so-called Scriptural evidence for OSAS.

Again I will emphasize you are without Trust or understanding.

The Lord is FOR EVER with the Converted....

By your teaching and understanding the Lord can Convert a man. The man IN CONTRAST to Scripture, can REMOVE HIMSELF from the Lords Hand.....and then what....??

The Lord REMAINS IN A MAN WHO HAS REJECTED HIM....??? Hummm? Or the Lord is a LIAR and Leaves the man?

DO TELL how your THEORY PLAYS out according TO YOUR understanding.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, you're assuming Rom 8:31-39 is not referring to salvation, but it is. You would have to prove that walking away is not a condition of the 17 things mentioned in those passages.

Are you willing to break down the 17 conditions as you see it? If you can't do that then you are adding to scripture by saying, "It doesn't mean, however, that we will be saved."

Remember we had discussed that Heb 6 and Heb 10 is figurative language in regards to maturity in believers? Well, take a look at the definition of discipline.........

paideia: the rearing of a child, training, discipline
Original Word: παιδεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paideia
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-di'-ah)
Short Definition: discipline
Definition: discipline; training and education of children, hence: instruction; chastisement, correction.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3809 paideía (from 3811 /paideúō, see there) – properly, instruction that trains someone to reach full development (maturity).

Yes, and believers are justified and forgiven at the cross BOL. God's wrath is no longer for them.

Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (dikaiosuné), and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.

First of all - you're NOT forgiven at the cross.
You are forgiven when you repent and are baptized (Acts 2:39). We are REDEEMED (paid for) at the cross.

As for Romans 8 - the FIRST verse starts out with the following:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, . . .

Amen.
However - this is the CONDITION for the list that follows. Salvation is conditional on our remaining in Christ.

One verse at a time please.
To you it doesn't because cooperation is works, no? To the believer, we obey and cooperate because of what Jesus already did FOR US on the cross. He died FOR US out of LOVE. This is where the religious fall in error. They can't process that condition of love, so if they don't cooperate every day His love stops.

However, His love doesn't stop when we are sinning or disobedient, it continues with discipline and sanctification. It's the power of God that saves us because Christ died for sinners and not for the Pharisee who is forever self righteous.

The finished work of the cross is a result of love on His behalf, not cooperation on our behalf...

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
and only God can change your mind. are people praying for you BOL?

And NONE of you has been able to show me that a believer automatically and effortlessly obeys and cooperates.
In fact, Jesus likened it to "picking up our cross daily" (Luke 9:23).

Being a true follower of Christ is NOT an "easy" thing to do and does NOT come "automatically."
On the contrary - it is a DIFFICULT road to stay on. The world is a much easier choice.

 

[Heb 13:8]

First of all - you're NOT forgiven at the cross.
You are forgiven when you repent and are baptized (Acts 2:39). We are REDEEMED (paid for) at the cross.

When you repent and are baptized in the Holy Spirit, what are you believing in?? The death, burial and resurrection. Forgiveness and redemption are a package deal..............

Eph 1:7-8 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

As for Romans 8 - the FIRST verse starts out with the following:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, . . .

For those who believe BOL. I'm starting to think the delusion in 2 Thess 2:11 is in full effect.........

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Jhn 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2Th 2:11-14 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

However - this is the CONDITION for the list that follows. Salvation is conditional on our remaining in Christ.

To the religious, yes it is conditional because they haven't fully surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ.

And NONE of you has been able to show me that a believer automatically and effortlessly obeys and cooperates.

Well of course not, who do you think we are, Jesus?

Being a true follower of Christ is NOT an "easy" thing to do and does NOT come "automatically."
On the contrary - it is a DIFFICULT road to stay on. The world is a much easier choice.

That's right, following the teachings of Jesus Christ takes sanctification and discipline which are reflected through the Holy Spirit. My advice to nonbelievers is to get saved first and then become a follower of Christ, otherwise you're just another Pharisee...........

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

God bless.

 

[brakelite]

On another thread there are some types and antitypes...shadows and realities portrayed in scripture to give us all a greater experience and broader picture of our views of God, His purposes, and the roles played in the story of redemption by the Redeemer and those who are redeemed.
One of the clearest and most obvious, and one most recognised by even the most superficial Bible student, is the story of Israel as they left the bondage of slavery in Egypt and travelled to the promised land. The entire journey, even from the call of Moses, a type of Christ, and His demands that Pharaoh (Satan) let God's people go, through that first Passover night, (Calvary), to the crossing of the Red Sea (baptism); the presentation of the law at Sinai and subsequent building of the tabernacle and establishment of the priesthood (Sanctification) taking 40 years, a lifetime for most, to the final entrance of a remnant into Canaan (glorification) tells us that our ultimate salvation is entirely conditional on our faithfulness and our obedience. Our legal right to heaven and eternal life was established at Calvary, and we call it justification. But the matter of our entrance into heaven does not end there. Our fitness for living there needs to be addressed. This is the conversion experience APAK referred to. However, justification does not, cannot, mean we are automatically saved any more than Israel was automatically saved just because they managed to climb the river bank in Arabia.

 

[Taken]

And this is complete hogwash.

Our works PRIOR to coming to faith are like dirty rags to God.
Our obedient works, however - are a DELIGHT to God (Exod 19:5, 1 Sam. 15:22, Isaisah 1:19).

You see, son - cherry-picking Isaiah 64:6 to show that our deeds are worthless doesn't stand up to the whole of Scripture in CONTEXT.

Context is where you guys keep failing . . .

Deed are works.

Works that please God are rewarded by God.

Works that please God are Works according to Gods Precepts.

Works that please God are Accomplished by a man who is converted.

Works that DO NOT please God are burned.

A man IS not saved or born again (ie Converted) by Works.

A man IS not KEPT saved or born again (ie Converted) by Works.

You teach a man IS KEPT Born again BY Cooperation, and infer that is a man doing works. <---- false.

A man IS Kept Saved and Born Again BY:
Gods Power

Then you teach a man WHO has Cooperated until the end of his Life, is THEN Saved. <----
In the context you teach, that is false.

A man IS Saved and Born Again WHEN;
He believes in his heart
He confesses to the Lord belief in his heart
He repents to the Lord
The Lord Converts the man
The Lord is thereafter forever IN the man and the man IN the Lord

And you teach a man having knowledge...
Is born again....that is false.

Having knowledge does NOT mean a man has become Converted.

And you teach a man can declare a baby born again without the baby calling on the Lord....that is false.

A parent can teach a child in the Ways of the Lord, which is teaching a child knowledge, that may prepare him to RECEIVE Conversion. It does not Convert the child, it prepares the child. The child/man must make his OWN CHOICE and ELECTION to give his life to the Lord.

A man who chooses/elects to give his life to the Lord IS Converted and Kept by the Power of God.

Unconverted Men are wishy washy. They can learn knowledge, believe, doubt, not believe, deny, believe, completely reject and walk away...They can change day to day.
Once they believe in their heart AND confess TO the Lord....They have made their choice, their election of God.....and He Converts them....ONCE and He Keeps them FOREVER.

It is taught throughout scripture the Consequences FOR becoming Converted and FOR rejecting Conversion.

You keep asking for a one-liner that encompasses all of Scripture.

You have been told and shown multiple scriptures but do not comprehend.......

What applies to an Unconverted man NO LONGER applies to a Converted man.

You repeatedly attempt to apply and argue what APPLIES to an Unconverted man ... applies to a converted man. It doesn't!

A converted man....is a new creature.
He is forgiven, washed, SANCTIFIED.
He is born with Gods Seed.
He can not, does not ever again Sin.

Your teaching is a Converted man, IS THE SAME OLD MAN...born of Gods SEED....WHO CONTINUES to Sin.

You make Gods Power MOOT.
You make Gods Seed MOOT.
You make Gods Words FALSE.

And then you claim People who DISAGREE with you, (who you proclaim is THE TEACHER,) are wrong, angry and haters.

You are in grievous error.

 

[Taken]

- and I'll take the Church's position over YOURS any day of the week.

Agree you take the Catholic Churches position, even when it changes from pope to pope.

The position being presented TO you is the Word of God. That is what you are arguing against.

Jesus told the leaders of His Church that the Holy spirit would guide that Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). He didn't make that promise to YOU or any other individual.

Converts ARE Christ's Church.
And Yes the Holy Spirit IN a Convert guides and teaches that INDIVIDUAL man.

And why I told you repeatedly, to stop pretending your are my teacher. The Lord is my teacher.

Finally - it's not ME who is "stuck" on Epignosis.

Yes it IS you WHO brought it up.
Yes it IS you WHO continues to bring it up.

Knowledge IS for Everyone.
Knowledge of Gods Word, IS knowledge that IS TRUE and Correct.

ANYONE hearing / reading the Word of God, IS Receiving TRUE and Correct KNOWLEDGE.

You claiming ONLY born again men have TRUE and CORRECT Knowledge is FALSE.

It's all of YOU who keep denying the definition.

Thatis False.
What IS being DISAGREED WITH, IS your claim ONLY born again men Have True and Correct Knowledge.

The Scriptures clearly speak of those having an "Epignosis" of Christ and the danger of them falling away and LOSING their secure position with God.

Uh huh!~
Told you repeatedly....MEN NOT YET CONVERTED....LEARN ABOUT GOD, ABOUT THE Lord.....

What they are LEARNNING "IS" the TRUE AND CORRECT KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD OF GOD.

Their SECURE POSITION is to CONTINUE Learning THE TRUE AND CORRECT....
WORD OF GOD.

Jesus chose 12 men....Every word they were taught was TRUE and CORRECT KNOWLEDGE!

During their LEARNING, some wondered, questioned, believed, doubted, denied, believed, questioned, wondered.....

^ THAT IS THE MANS PROCESS OF LEARNING!

11 of the men KEPT their SECURE POSITION, even when doubting, wondering, believing....
"BY CONTINUING" to Learn and Follow EVEN when they did not understand!

1 of the men (Judas)....LOST...
His SECURE POSITION, WHEN HE STOPPED following, learning, believing!!!!!!!

He fell from grace.
He fell from faith.
He did not FALL FROM SALVATION....He didn't stick around long enough to become Converted and RECEIVE Salvation.
His Salvation became LOST to him.......
BECAUSE he DIDN"T RECEIVE IT!

The Other 11 Continued Learning....following.
Their Position IS CALLED a SECURE POSITION, which means CONTINUING "TO" the DIRECTION that IS PREPARING A MAN "FOR" Conversion.

Every single man THAT is hearing and learning THE WORD OF GOD, IS BEING GIVEN "FAITH" from God.

The more a man Hears the Word of God....
The more the mans FAITH is INCREASED.

The mans EFFORT is Hearing...
The Lords GIFT is FAITH for Hearing....

CONTINUE.....and you are on a SECURE path.
STOP....and you LOSE your SECURE path.

It is ONCE the man decides HE is prepared...
BY his effort of Learning the Word of God...
AND the Increased gift of Faith from God....
The INDIVIDUAL MAN HIMSELF....experiences the FEELING OF INCREASED FAITH IN HIS OWN NATURAL HEART....THAT HE DESIRES TO CALL ON THE Lord, CONFESS HIS FAITH, and REPENT TO the Lord.....

This man HAS BEEN CALLED, AND ANSWERED the CALL....WITH YES to the Lord.

A man can go though the WHOLE process...of learing, believing, receiving faith, being prepared........AND DECIDE TO NOT SAY YES TO THE Lord....NOT Confess to the Lord, NOT Repent to the Lord.....
He has LOST faith.
He has LOST belief.
He has LOST his secure position.
He has LOST receiving his Salvation.
He has LOSt receiving Conversion.

He was CALLED, but NOT Chosen.

The Chosen are the ELECT.
The Chosen are the CONVERTED.

The Chosen are not the Called and PREPARED "WHO" reject the Lord and reject giving their LIFE TO THE Lord.

You teach those who REJECT the Lord are Converted and that IS FALSE.

That is an extremely explicit proof that OSAS is a man-made fallacy . . .

No it isn't. Your opinion and understanding IS NOT the measure of OSAS.

Nothing scripturally teaches to become Converted OVER AND OVER.

Nothing scripturally teaches The Lords Conversion IS dependent on being Kept or maintained by a man.

Nothing scripturally teaches that ONCE a man IS CONVERTED "IN" Christ, that man CAN depart from Christ.

Nothing scripturally teaches that ONCE Christ IS "IN" a Converted man, He will leave that man.

Nothing scripturally teaches that the Lord is IN UNCONVERTED men.

A Secure Position for a man IS for a man TO STAY IN the WORD OF GOD.
And WHY Scripture teaches MEN to STAY in the Word of GOD.

A GUARANTEED FOR EVER POSITION....IS for the Lord TO Convert the man.....WHICH INCLUDES "HIM FOREVER PUTTING HIS WORD IN THE MAN.....written in the NEW MAN'S, NEW HEART!

You are teaching a Secure Position is a man ALREADY CONVERTED....not true.

A secure position is a MAN staying IN the WORD of God......BECAUSE IT GAINS THE MAN FAITH....and FAITH LEADS to a CONVERSION!

A Conversion effects the Lords Word IN THE MAN FOR EVER....That man CAN NEVER again be separated from the Lord....

 

[BreadOfLife]

When you repent and are baptized in the Holy Spirit, what are you believing in?? The death, burial and resurrection. Forgiveness and redemption are a package deal..............

Eph 1:7-8 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

And is seems that you believe in Calvin's man-made farce of "Limited Atonement" - the anti-Biblical idea that Jesus only dies for a select few. Either that - or you are conflating Redemption with Salvation.

The fact is that EVERYBODY was redeemed (paid for) at Calvary. Hitler, Manson, Dahmer, Dawkins, etc. EVERY single person who ever lived inside AND outside of the womb was redeemed - but NOT every person cooperates with God's redemptive grace to attain salvation.

For those who believe BOL. I'm starting to think the delusion in 2 Thess 2:11 is in full effect.........

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Jhn 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2Th 2:11-14 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen to ALL of these verses.
However - NONE of them speak to what happens when that born again person falls away and rejects Christ.

I gave nine or so verses that DO address this condition . . .

To the religious, yes it is conditional because they haven't fully surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ.

No - Scripture teaches us repeatedly that salvation is conditional for EVERYBODY.
EVERY single born again person needs to REMAIN faithful, lest they fall from grace and LOSE their secure position with God.
The Bible is BLINDINGLY clear on this fact even though you and your cronies continue to deny it.
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Well of course not, who do you think we are, Jesus?

How could you represent Jesus when you live in rebellion against Him (Luke 10:16)?

That's right, following the teachings of Jesus Christ takes sanctification and discipline which are reflected through the Holy Spirit. My advice to nonbelievers is to get saved first and then become a follower of Christ, otherwise you're just another Pharisee...........

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

God bless.

That's horrible advice.

You don't "get saved" and THEN become a follower of Christ.
Being an obedient follower of Christ is what GETS you saved.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Agree you take the Catholic Churches position, even when it changes from pope to pope.
The position being presented TO you is the Word of God. That is what you are arguing against.

Hmmmmmm, another ignorant claim. What a surprise, coming from YOU . . .
The Church's position doesn't "change" from Pope to Pope.

Converts ARE Christ's Church.
And Yes the Holy Spirit IN a Convert guides and teaches that INDIVIDUAL man.

And why I told you repeatedly, to stop pretending your are my teacher. The Lord is my teacher.

Uh huh.
And is the Holy Spirit the one who taught tens of thousands of different men to teach tens of thousands of different and polar opposite doctrines that contradict each other? You may think that God is the author of confusion - but He's NOT.
That happened when all of these prideful men decided for themselves that they were being led by the Holy Spirit - when they were really building another Tower of Babel . . .

Yes it IS you WHO brought it up.
Yes it IS you WHO continues to bring it up.
Knowledge IS for Everyone.
Knowledge of Gods Word, IS knowledge that IS TRUE and Correct.
ANYONE hearing / reading the Word of God, IS Receiving TRUE and Correct KNOWLEDGE.
You claiming ONLY born again men have TRUE and CORRECT Knowledge is FALSE.
Thatis False.
What IS being DISAGREED WITH, IS your claim ONLY born again men Have True and Correct Knowledge.

Yup - I absolutely brought up "Epignosis" because it is in the passages I presented.
I'm not "stuck" on it, however. YOU are the one who can't seem to accept it - even though it is GOD BREATHED Scripture.

Uh huh!~
Told you repeatedly....MEN NOT YET CONVERTED....LEARN ABOUT GOD, ABOUT THE Lord.....

What they are LEARNNING "IS" the TRUE AND CORRECT KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD OF GOD.

Their SECURE POSITION is to CONTINUE Learning THE TRUE AND CORRECT....
WORD OF GOD.

Jesus chose 12 men....Every word they were taught was TRUE and CORRECT KNOWLEDGE!

During their LEARNING, some wondered, questioned, believed, doubted, denied, believed, questioned, wondered.....

^ THAT IS THE MANS PROCESS OF LEARNING!

11 of the men KEPT their SECURE POSITION, even when doubting, wondering, believing....
"BY CONTINUING" to Learn and Follow EVEN when they did not understand!

1 of the men (Judas)....LOST...
His SECURE POSITION, WHEN HE STOPPED following, learning, believing!!!!!!!

He fell from grace.
He fell from faith.
He did not FALL FROM SALVATION....He didn't stick around long enough to become Converted and RECEIVE Salvation.
His Salvation became LOST to him.......
BECAUSE he DIDN"T RECEIVE IT!

The Other 11 Continued Learning....following.
Their Position IS CALLED a SECURE POSITION, which means CONTINUING "TO" the DIRECTION that IS PREPARING A MAN "FOR" Conversion.

Every single man THAT is hearing and learning THE WORD OF GOD, IS BEING GIVEN "FAITH" from God.

The more a man Hears the Word of God....
The more the mans FAITH is INCREASED.

The mans EFFORT is Hearing...
The Lords GIFT is FAITH for Hearing....

CONTINUE.....and you are on a SECURE path.
STOP....and you LOSE your SECURE path.

It is ONCE the man decides HE is prepared...
BY his effort of Learning the Word of God...
AND the Increased gift of Faith from God....
The INDIVIDUAL MAN HIMSELF....experiences the FEELING OF INCREASED FAITH IN HIS OWN NATURAL HEART....THAT HE DESIRES TO CALL ON THE Lord, CONFESS HIS FAITH, and REPENT TO the Lord.....

This man HAS BEEN CALLED, AND ANSWERED the CALL....WITH YES to the Lord.

A man can go though the WHOLE process...of learing, believing, receiving faith, being prepared........AND DECIDE TO NOT SAY YES TO THE Lord....NOT Confess to the Lord, NOT Repent to the Lord.....
He has LOST faith.
He has LOST belief.
He has LOST his secure position.
He has LOST receiving his Salvation.
He has LOSt receiving Conversion.

He was CALLED, but NOT Chosen.

The Chosen are the ELECT.
The Chosen are the CONVERTED.

The Chosen are not the Called and PREPARED "WHO" reject the Lord and reject giving their LIFE TO THE Lord.

You teach those who REJECT the Lord are Converted and that IS FALSE.
No it isn't. Your opinion and understanding IS NOT the measure of OSAS.

Nothing scripturally teaches to become Converted OVER AND OVER.

Nothing scripturally teaches The Lords Conversion IS dependent on being Kept or maintained by a man.

Nothing scripturally teaches that ONCE a man IS CONVERTED "IN" Christ, that man CAN depart from Christ.

Nothing scripturally teaches that ONCE Christ IS "IN" a Converted man, He will leave that man.

Nothing scripturally teaches that the Lord is IN UNCONVERTED men.

A Secure Position for a man IS for a man TO STAY IN the WORD OF GOD.
And WHY Scripture teaches MEN to STAY in the Word of GOD.

A GUARANTEED FOR EVER POSITION....IS for the Lord TO Convert the man.....WHICH INCLUDES "HIM FOREVER PUTTING HIS WORD IN THE MAN.....written in the NEW MAN'S, NEW HEART!

You are teaching a Secure Position is a man ALREADY CONVERTED....not true.

A secure position is a MAN staying IN the WORD of God......BECAUSE IT GAINS THE MAN FAITH....and FAITH LEADS to a CONVERSION!

A Conversion effects the Lords Word IN THE MAN FOR EVER....That man CAN NEVER again be separated from the Lord....

Do you even know the meaning of the word "concise"??
ALL of your posts are long-winded rants that run on seemingly forever with no real conclusion.

First of all - how do YOU know what happened to the 11 remaining Apostles after Judas??
The Bible doesn't tell us. It is Catholic Church Tradition that fills in the blanks as to what happened to the rest.

That being said - the very Bible you swear by was compiled and declared Canononical by that SAME Church that you reject.
Why do YOU believe in it??

Finally - as long as you keep rejecting God's Word and spitting on the word that HE chose to inspire the NT writers to use (Epignosis) - you will be LOST . . .

 

[Helen]

And is seems that you believe in Calvin's man-made farce of "Limited Atonement" - the anti-Biblical idea that Jesus only dies for a select few. Either that - or you are conflating Redemption with Salvation.

The fact is that EVERYBODY was redeemed (paid for) at Calvary. Hitler, Manson, Dahmer, Dawkins, etc. EVERY single person who ever lived inside AND outside of the womb was redeemed - but NOT every person cooperates with God's redemptive grace to attain salvation.

Hi BOL
I like this part of your quote...
But I couldn't "like" it all.

I believe God burns up the sin...but not the person.
Redeemed is redeemed.

Those that don't follow Him lose much, position and rewards, but nevertheless they were bought and paid for...redeemed.

Bless you...H

 

[Heb 13:8]

And is seems that you believe in Calvin's man-made farce of "Limited Atonement" - the anti-Biblical idea that Jesus only dies for a select few. Either that - or you are conflating Redemption with Salvation.

The fact is that EVERYBODY was redeemed (paid for) at Calvary. Hitler, Manson, Dahmer, Dawkins, etc. EVERY single person who ever lived inside AND outside of the womb was redeemed - but NOT every person cooperates with God's redemptive grace to attain salvation.

No, Jesus died for the whole world, but salvation is only for those who believe and confess. It has nothing to do with cooperating and everything to do with belief.

However - NONE of them speak to what happens when that born again person falls away and rejects Christ.

Rejects as in a born again believer turning to atheism? That's not biblical, and you're grasping at straws.

EVERY single born again person needs to REMAIN faithful, lest they fall from grace and LOSE their secure position with God.

How could you represent Jesus when you live in rebellion against Him (Luke 10:16)?

Well that's the thing, I'm not in rebellion rather I'm in a relationship with God, less you accuse and assume that someone you don't even know is in rebellion.... Rom 8:33, Rev 12:10

You don't "get saved" and THEN become a follower of Christ.
Being an obedient follower of Christ is what GETS you saved.

Uhh no, nonbelievers are not followers of Christ, their enemies.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Jesus died for the whole world, but salvation is only for those who believe and confess. It has nothing to do with cooperating and everything to do with belief.

"Confessing" is cooperating with God's redemptive grace.
Yes, Jesus died for the WHOLE world, which means that He PAID for the WHOLE world - so EVERYBODY is redeemed (paid for).

Not sure why you are saying "No" . . .

Rejects as in a born again believer turning to atheism? That's not biblical, and you're grasping at straws.

NOT Biblical??
Tell that to God who breathed the following passages of Scripture (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Well that's the thing, I'm not in rebellion rather I'm in a relationship with God, less you accuse and assume that someone you don't even know is in rebellion.... Rom 8:33, Rev 12:10 [/QUOTE]
Everybody who is against His Church is in rebellion against Him . . .
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Uhh no, nonbelievers are not followers of Christ, their enemies.

WHO said non-believers follow Christ??

Pay attention: I sad that being an obedient follower of Christ is what GETS you saved.
Part of being obedient is believing - but it's not ALL.

 

[APAK]

On another thread there are some types and antitypes...shadows and realities portrayed in scripture to give us all a greater experience and broader picture of our views of God, His purposes, and the roles played in the story of redemption by the Redeemer and those who are redeemed.
One of the clearest and most obvious, and one most recognised by even the most superficial Bible student, is the story of Israel as they left the bondage of slavery in Egypt and travelled to the promised land. The entire journey, even from the call of Moses, a type of Christ, and His demands that Pharaoh (Satan) let God's people go, through that first Passover night, (Calvary), to the crossing of the Red Sea (baptism); the presentation of the law at Sinai and subsequent building of the tabernacle and establishment of the priesthood (Sanctification) taking 40 years, a lifetime for most, to the final entrance of a remnant into Canaan (glorification) tells us that our ultimate salvation is entirely conditional on our faithfulness and our obedience. Our legal right to heaven and eternal life was established at Calvary, and we call it justification. But the matter of our entrance into heaven does not end there. Our fitness for living there needs to be addressed. This is the conversion experience APAK referred to. However, justification does not, cannot, mean we are automatically saved any more than Israel was automatically saved just because they managed to climb the river bank in Arabia.

Brother brakelite:

I disagree with your part of your post where you say, “ultimate salvation is entirely conditional on our faithfulness and our obedience. Our legal right to heaven and eternal life was established at Calvary, and we call it justification. But the matter of our entrance into heaven does not end there. Our fitness for living there needs to be addressed. This is the conversion experience APAK referred to. However, justification does not, cannot, mean we are automatically saved any more than Israel was automatically saved just because they managed to climb the river bank in Arabia…”

I have a different take on salvation.

The Israelites were physically saved from their common enemy although their spiritual salvation was indeed quite a different matter, as history records. That was the easy part for the ‘called out’ people as Moses’ belief and faith in God covered their right to cross the Sea. Individual belief would come later of course during their testing of their hearts.

Here’s a crude and starter table I uploaded as a .pdf file, I just developed for us to view and criticize if you want; depicting salvation as contrasted in OT and NT. I used the same timeframe as you did - of Exodus, purposely. Please feel free to red-line it. I hope it’s understandable.

Once the gift of salvation is given by God to a sinner as the candidate for salvation, this person is then transformed in heart/ spirit into a new creature and salvation is assured from that time forth. It is not conditional, on the world or even themselves. God’s words reaffirm this permanence. They entered freely under their own will into an agreement with God and he placed a permanent mark or 'seal' affixed in this person's heart, mind and hand (his spiritual works) - the only salvation agreement and choice for mankind.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Heb 13:8]

"Confessing" is cooperating with God's redemptive grace.

Right, we cooperate through our belief and faith. Believing and confessing is not a work. If that's what you're trying to make it then that's false, Eph 2:8-9.

Yes, Jesus died for the WHOLE world, which means that He PAID for the WHOLE world - so EVERYBODY is redeemed (paid for).

Only if they believe and confess BOL, not every one will accept His free gift.

NOT Biblical??
Tell that to God who breathed the following passages of Scripture (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Which you have taken all out of context.

Everybody who is against His Church is in rebellion against Him . . .
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Right, and those against His church are nonbelievers and non believing religious zealots who preach against believism.

WHO said non-believers follow Christ??

Pay attention: I sad that being an obedient follower of Christ is what GETS you saved.
Part of being obedient is believing - but it's not ALL.

No, what get's you saved is believing and confessing, Rom 10:9. Debating in circles doesn't make hell any less true, wouldn't you say?

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

 

[brakelite]

Brother brakelite:

I disagree with your part of your post where you say, “ultimate salvation is entirely conditional on our faithfulness and our obedience. Our legal right to heaven and eternal life was established at Calvary, and we call it justification. But the matter of our entrance into heaven does not end there. Our fitness for living there needs to be addressed. This is the conversion experience APAK referred to. However, justification does not, cannot, mean we are automatically saved any more than Israel was automatically saved just because they managed to climb the river bank in Arabia…”

I have a different take on salvation.

The Israelites were physically saved from their common enemy although their spiritual salvation was indeed quite a different matter, as history records. That was the easy part for the ‘called out’ people as Moses’ belief and faith in God covered their right to cross the Sea. Individual belief would come later of course during their testing of their hearts.

Here’s a crude and starter table I uploaded as a .pdf file, I just developed for us to view and criticize if you want; depicting salvation as contrasted in OT and NT. I used the same timeframe as you did - of Exodus, purposely. Please feel free to red-line it. I hope it’s understandable.

Once the gift of salvation is given by God to a sinner as the candidate for salvation, this person is then transformed in heart/ spirit into a new creature and salvation is assured from that time forth. It is not conditional, on the world or even themselves. God’s words reaffirm this permanence. They entered freely under their own will into an agreement with God and he placed a permanent mark or 'seal' affixed in this person's heart, mind and hand (his spiritual works) - the only salvation agreement and choice for mankind.

Bless you,

APAK

Okay, instead of that large Exodus picture of the type/antitype I related above, I will offer the more succinct version that God gave to Israel...the sanctuary itself. Ps 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
The sanctuary service, with its furniture, its setting, and its priesthood, was the gospel for Israel. Throughout it reveals the gospel to us...it prefigures everything the NT offers. The sanctuary and everything associated with it is the earthly shadow, the OT shadow, of the NT and heavenly reality.
The altar of sacrifice was the figure of the true sacrifice of Calvary. But Israel wasn't saved at the altar. The blood of the covenant needed to be carried into the sanctuary. The priest needed to minister there for the redemption of Israel, with all things pointing to Christ, and that redemption was not complete until the day of atonement, itself a type of the latter-day Day of Atonement immediately prior to the second coming of the High Priest to the earth to take His people home.
The reality is now being enacted in heaven itself where our High Priest ministers in blood in the heavenly sanctuary. The shedding of blood was but the beginning. In that blood was the confessed sins of the people. Those sins in the OT were carried into the sanctuary and in type transferred/sprinkled before the curtain. In heaven written upon the books of record. That record of our sins are not yet blotted out. Not until the High Priest leaves the sanctuary/temple at the conclusion of the Day Of Atonement is our salvation secure...and those sins were blotted out and removed only on condition of the continuing repentant attitude of the people, both of Israel in the OT and spiritual Israel in the New.

 

[epostle1]

Redemption and salvation are not the same thing.
John 3:16 is not a slogan. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son...
That's everybody. That's redemption.
...that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
That's salvation. Salvation and redemption are related but they are not the same thing. Catholics profess "grace alone" the same as Protestants.

But (and it\’s a big but)… not everyone will choose to accept the redeeming love of God and its invitation to salvation. While God didn’t need our cooperation or permission to redeem us, without our cooperation and permission He will not save us. God is a gentleman, and He will not bring us into union with Him unless we desire that union. Redemption has come to all of us, thanks to Christ\’s atoning work on the Cross approximately 2,000 years ago, but salvation is an individual choice that we each must make, a gift that we can accept or reject even up to our dying breath.
Pope Francis Knows the Difference Between Redemption and Salvation. Do You? - Catholic Stand
​

When he presents the heart of his redemptive mission, Jesus says: "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly" (Jn 10:10). In truth, he is referring to that "new" and "eternal" life which consists in communion with the Father, to which every person is freely called in the Son by the power of the Sanctifying Spirit. It is precisely in this "life" that all the aspects and stages of human life achieve their full significance.

The incomparable worth of the human person

2. Man is called to a fullness of life which far exceeds the dimensions of his earthly existence, because it consists in sharing the very life of God...
...The Church knows that this Gospel of life, which she has received from her Lord, 1 has a profound and persuasive echo in the heart of every person-believer and non-believer alike-because it marvellously fulfils all the heart's expectations while infinitely surpassing them. Even in the midst of difficulties and uncertainties, every person sincerely open to truth and goodness can, by the light of reason and the hidden action of grace, come to recognize in the natural law written in the heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15) the sacred value of human life from its very beginning until its end, and can affirm the right of every human being to have this primary good respected to the highest degree. Upon the recognition of this right, every human community and the political community itself are founded.

In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote this right, aware as they are of the wonderful truth recalled by the Second Vatican Council: "By his incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every human being".2 This saving event reveals to humanity not only the boundless love of God who "so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (Jn 3:16), but also the incomparable value of every human person.

The Church, faithfully contemplating the mystery of the Redemption, acknowledges this value with ever new wonder.3 She feels called to proclaim to the people of all times this "Gospel", the source of invincible hope and true joy for every period of history. The Gospel of God's love for man, the Gospel of the dignity of the person and the Gospel of life are a single and indivisible Gospel.
Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) | John Paul II
footnotes:
1 The expression "Gospel of life" is not found as such in Sacred Scripture. But it does correspond to an essential dimension of the biblical message.

2 Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 22.

3 Cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptor Hominis (4 March 1979), 10; AAS 71 (1979), 275.

I am not pushing for Catholicism, I am pushing for the dignity of the human person.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Redemption and salvation are not the same thing.
John 3:16 is not a slogan. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son...
That's everybody. That's redemption.
...that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
That's salvation. Salvation and redemption are related but they are not the same thing.

epostle1, nonbelievers are not redeemed. Redemption is a result of getting saved. Eph 1 and Col 1 are talking about believers in Christ, and as we all know Eph 1:13-14 is OSAS passage.

Eph 1:5-7 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption (apolutrósis) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption (apolutrósis), the forgiveness of sins.

apolutrósis: a release effected by payment of ransom
Original Word: ἀπολύτρωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apolutrósis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis)
Short Definition: redemption, deliverance
Definition: release effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance.

I am not pushing for Catholicism, I am pushing for the dignity of the human person.

The religious should push more towards believing and confessing, less they believe a lie?

2 Thess 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

God bless

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, we cooperate through our belief and faith. Believing and confessing is not a work. If that's what you're trying to make it then that's false, Eph 2:8-9.

Confessing is cooperating with God's grace.

ALL along, I have been saying that our COOPERATION is necessary for salvation - while all of YOU have been saying that we are saved WITHOUT our cooperation.
Good to see that you're changing your tune to the Biblical view . . .

Only if they believe and confess BOL, not every one will accept His free gift.

WRONG.
EVERYBODY has been paid for.

Their cooperation is necessary for forgiveness and salvation - but not redemption.

Which you have taken all out of context.

Sooooo, show me HOW I took them "out" of context - because, so far, you haven't been able to do that.
A few of these passages speak of born again people having "Epignosis" of Christ and losing their salvation.

It's ALL in context . . .

Right, and those against His church are nonbelievers and non believing religious zealots who preach against believism.

Being a true follower of Christ is NOT about "believism". Even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19) - so simply believing is NOT special.

It's about obedience of faith.

No, what get's you saved is believing and confessing, Rom 10:9. Debating in circles doesn't make hell any less true, wouldn't you say?

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

I see you posted Matt. 7:22 as "proof" of faith - but you omitted the verse right BEFORE it, which speaks to Rom. 10:9 that you ALSO presented:

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

Rom 10:9 speaks to calling on Jesus.
Matt. 7:21 says that is fine - but that is not ALL you need to do. You have to be OBEDIENT by DOING the Father's will.

"Believing" is a good START - but it is in NO way the same thing as Faith.
It LEADS to faith . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Confessing is cooperating with God's grace.

ALL along, I have been saying that our COOPERATION is necessary for salvation - while all of YOU have been saying that we are saved WITHOUT our cooperation.
Good to see that you're changing your tune to the Biblical view . . .

Right, but to you believing and confessing is a work, which is false Eph 2:8-9.

EVERYBODY has been paid for.

Their cooperation is necessary for forgiveness and salvation - but not redemption.

BOL, forgiveness, salvation and redemption are a package deal. Why do you ignore the text, it's right there for you to see...

Eph 1:5-7 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption (apolutrósis) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption (apolutrósis), the forgiveness of sins.

Sooooo, show me HOW I took them "out" of context - because, so far, you haven't been able to do that. A few of these passages speak of born again people having "Epignosis" of Christ and losing their salvation.

You take Heb 6 and Heb 10 as literal, but in reality it's figurative for maturity in Christ. Heb 6 and 10 are also used as a cross reference for the crucifixion of Jesus. Reading my responses over and over does nothing if you do not believe. The word "confidence" is mentioned twice in Heb 10 and is also mentioned in 1 Jhn 5:9-14 and Rom 8:38-39 which are both OSAS scripture. There's too many contradictions for Heb 6 and Heb 10 to be literal.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

It's about obedience of faith. "Believing" is a good START - but it is in NO way the same thing as Faith. It LEADS to faith . . .

Right, it's about obedience of faith, and what is the definition of faith?

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

I see you posted Matt. 7:22 as "proof" of faith - but you omitted the verse right BEFORE it, which speaks to Rom. 10:9 that you ALSO presented:

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

Rom 10:9 speaks to calling on Jesus.
Matt. 7:21 says that is fine - but that is not ALL you need to do. You have to be OBEDIENT by DOING the Father's will.

BOL, to understand these passages you need to read it in full context, Matt 7:15-23. In Matt 7:15, Jesus is making a comparison between believers and nonbelievers by using the words sheep and wolves. Believers in Christ are the sheep, and nonbelievers are the wolves. The nonbelievers were the one's working their way into the kingdom, which Jesus plainly says depart from me workers of iniquity.

God bless