"Revelation," should we be that concerned 'today'?

[shturt678]

Any 'prophecy' in the Book of Revelation that should seriously concern us even at this moment? Gospel's message good enough without Revelation's prophecy in today's time? I strongly feel that we should be concerned, for example, Rev. chapters 6 through 11 more so than Rev. chapters 19 through 20

Old Jack

 

[michaelvpardo]

If we know and trust Jesus Christ, then no prophecy in the book of the Revelation should "concern" us at all, but as we see the events unfolding which lead to the return of our Lord in glory we should be getting excited that the redemption of our bodies is drawing near. I would be content to see the Lord in the body that I have now, regardless of the deterioration that its experiencing, but His promise is that upon His return He will raise the dead "in Christ" and that we will be transformed into our new and glorified bodies to meet Him in the air in what the book of the Revelation calls the first resurrection. What happens between now and then will be somewhat unpleasant, but He is able to preserve our lives through anything that comes upon the earth, and if we should die in any of those terrible events, we'll just get to see Him sooner.

 

[shturt678]

If we know and trust Jesus Christ, then no prophecy in the book of the Revelation should "concern" us at all, but as we see the events unfolding which lead to the return of our Lord in glory we should be getting excited that the redemption of our bodies is drawing near. I would be content to see the Lord in the body that I have now, regardless of the deterioration that its experiencing, but His promise is that upon His return He will raise the dead "in Christ" and that we will be transformed into our new and glorified bodies to meet Him in the air in what the book of the Revelation calls the first resurrection. What happens between now and then will be somewhat unpleasant, but He is able to preserve our lives through anything that comes upon the earth, and if we should die in any of those terrible events, we'll just get to see Him sooner.

Excellent word of encouragment...thank you!

Old Jack looking at Rev. chapter 6 again, making sure.
Eyeballed Rev.6 again, and not looking good with Rev. chapters 8 & 9???

The Word (Scriptures) is riding out conquering by its own power, alone indeed, where the power lies wholly in itself even at this very moment. It's directed against the enemies of the Lamb, again, this very moment...first and foremost one needs a truthful interpretation then put on the full armor of our Lord on against non-miraculous preliminary judgments...don't hold your breath on this one...isn't going to happen...not so much a Rom.1:16, but more of a Rom.1:18 where most think it's all grace today. This is only a walk in the park...wait to you see Rev.8-9???

Rev.8-9: The six Trumpets describe miraculous preliminary judgments from heaven even at this moment. Expounds IIThess.2:11, 12.

The end point: Those that understand the former and remain in, are measured this moment at Rev.11:1, and the rest are measured at IIThess.2:10b.

One should be extremely concerned to the googol plex power, or view the former as fallacious having no concern at all,

Old Jack's opinion,

BTW we'll find out immediately as soon as we pass on whether the former fallacious or not?

 

[Guestman]

Any 'prophecy' in the Book of Revelation that should seriously concern us even at this moment? Gospel's message good enough without Revelation's prophecy in today's time? I strongly feel that we should be concerned, for example, Rev. chapters 6 through 11 more so than Rev. chapters 19 through 20

Old Jack

This view is no different than the churches, for they have considered the Bible like going to a "buffet" at a restaurant, pick and choose what you want and discard the rest. This goes contrary to Jesus words to Satan, saying: "It is written (at Deut 8:3): ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4)


And the apostle Paul wrote that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17)


Hence, without all of the Bible, there is a void, whereby "the man of God" will not "be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." What machine can function properly if several key parts are missing ? So, to pick and choose what a person wants to hear (and apply) regarding the Bible shows disrespect for our Maker, Jehovah God.


It also shows an arrogance, for a person is saying that all that has been presented through the Bible is not really "good" and "I don't like it." This is like the Pentecostals who basically only accept Acts 2:38, rejecting the rest of the Bible. (I had a Pentecostal couple tell me this and that even Jesus words were unimportant)


Thus, to say that "we should be concerned......Rev. chapters 6 through 11 more so than Rev. chapters 19 through 20" shows that a person is lacking in love for God, but wants to set their own guidelines of what is "right and wrong." (see Gen 3:1-6)


What does Revelation 1:1 say ? It says: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." So, to pick out only part of Revelation shows disrespect for both Jesus and God, as if saying that " I know what more than them".


Revelation 1:3 says: "Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of (all) this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near." How can a person "observe (all) the things written in" Revelation if they cut out part of it ?


At Jeremiah 2, the nation of Israel was condemned for having done this, saying: "Because my people have done two bad things: They have abandoned me (by picking only what they wanted to hear which led them to worship other gods), the source of living water, and dug for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that cannot hold water.’ "(Jer 2:13)


The reason many wish to slide parts of the Bible "under the carpet" is (1) because it exposes them as unrighteous (see John 3:20), (2) because many are unwilling to change their personality to fit God's "new personality", "stripping off the old personality".(Col 3:9, 10), (3) because they are disinclined to allow Jehovah God to teach them (see Heb 5:13), (4) because they do not like the message that often "stings".(see Rev 9:5, 6)

 

[shturt678]

This view is no different than the churches, for they have considered the Bible like going to a "buffet" at a restaurant, pick and choose what you want and discard the rest. This goes contrary to Jesus words to Satan, saying: "It is written (at Deut 8:3): ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4)

And the apostle Paul wrote that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17)

Hence, without all of the Bible, there is a void, whereby "the man of God" will not "be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." What machine can function properly if several key parts are missing ? So, to pick and choose what a person wants to hear (and apply) regarding the Bible shows disrespect for our Maker, Jehovah God.

It also shows an arrogance, for a person is saying that all that has been presented through the Bible is not really "good" and "I don't like it." This is like the Pentecostals who basically only accept Acts 2:38, rejecting the rest of the Bible. (I had a Pentecostal couple tell me this and that even Jesus words were unimportant)

Thus, to say that "we should be concerned......Rev. chapters 6 through 11 more so than Rev. chapters 19 through 20" shows that a person is lacking in love for God, but wants to set their own guidelines of what is "right and wrong." (see Gen 3:1-6)

What does Revelation 1:1 say ? It says: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." So, to pick out only part of Revelation shows disrespect for both Jesus and God, as if saying that " I know what more than them".

Although we agree to disagree, I accept your refute thanking you for your honest lucid response, and caring my brother.

We don't have a case "Pot meet Kettle" do we, viz. Guestman: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves that must shortly take place" Jack: "to show.....and he signified them)," and I'm the only one here on this thread 'rejecting the rest of the Bible'??? Rev. chapters 6-9 are to be viewed symbolically ("to show...he signified") matches how we are to view these visions my brother.



Revelation 1:3 says: "Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of (all) this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near." How can a person "observe (all) the things written in" Revelation if they cut out part of it ?

At Jeremiah 2, the nation of Israel was condemned for having done this, saying: "Because my people have done two bad things: They have abandoned me (by picking only what they wanted to hear which led them to worship other gods), the source of living water, and dug for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that cannot hold water.’ "(Jer 2:13)

The reason many wish to slide parts of the Bible "under the carpet" is (1) because it exposes them as unrighteous (see John 3:20), (2) because many are unwilling to change their personality to fit God's "new personality", "stripping off the old personality".(Col 3:9, 10), (3) because they are disinclined to allow Jehovah God to teach them (see Heb 5:13), (4) because they do not like the message that often "stings".(see Rev 9:5, 6)

I could continue through your response, however you get the idea, and thank you again for caring.

Old Jack looking under my rug making sure I didn't mistakingly sweep anything other than dust underneath the rug.

 

[[email protected]]

Any 'prophecy' in the Book of Revelation that should seriously concern us even at this moment? Gospel's message good enough without Revelation's prophecy in today's time? I strongly feel that we should be concerned, for example, Rev. chapters 6 through 11 more so than Rev. chapters 19 through 20

Old Jack

Too many misinterpret the identity of 'the restrainer' as the Holy Spirit. The notion is misapplied in the extreme. Here's why.

Consider the context of the passage for intended meaning. This is the accepted method of learning the point of scripture.

The passage in question is talking about alliances; worldly alliances, agreements between nations and peoples, alliances of actual physical groups..... The spiritual aspect is present only in the form of inspiring and/or directing these political alignments. Revelation is full of that sort of thing. The spiritual world influences and directs the physical world. In the passage in question, the arrangement of physical alliances is discussed.

The restrainer, therefore, is not overtly spiritual. The restrainer is either a nation or an alliance of nations. Since the passage states that the restrainer will be removed somehow, we may assume that an alliance that prevents an assault against Israel will be removed or weakened to the point where the enemies of Israel will feel no hesitation about planning and executing an attack - also a physical event, BTW. The Bible is talking about the increase and decrease of actual physical political power groups and nations. It is NOT talking about the Holy Spirit except with regard to that person's role in executing God's mercy - and the Holy Spirit, like the Father, is not taking a day off for vacation.

Rule #1 is to view Israel, the actual real nation state, as the core and object and center of Biblical prophecy. Jesus returns to Israel, not Washington, DC or Rome, Italy. ISRAEL is the political entity to watch both in the newspapers and in the Bible.

What or who, in terms of political entities, is the restrainer of those who wish to attack Israel?

The answer should be obvious - the nations of the west; Britain, France and the United States are the restrainer(s). POTUS O has already snubbed Israel and its leadership so many times that Israel, not America, has had to apologize for it. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd behavior? The tide of protection for Israel is going out - at least as far as earthly alliances and military support is concerned. I'm talking about real, not imagined, nations here.....and so is the Bible I think.

Strangely, the respect and high regard for Almighty God that former Christian nations of France, Britain and America have enjoyed is also getting thin. One might argue outward hostility toward God and His people both Jewish and Christian is at hand....and one would not have to go far to find evidence to justify such an opinion. As America withdraws its respect and humble attitude toward God, it has also withdrawn its real military and political support for Israel. Strange how these things work, isn't it?

The restrainer is America and her allies. The enemies of Israel today, as well as in the Bible, are obvious. Both the literary and actual parties have announced their intentions loudly and clearly.

"We do not know what history holds, but we know who holds history."
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[shturt678]

Too many misinterpret the identity of 'the restrainer' as the Holy Spirit. The notion is misapplied in the extreme. Here's why.

Consider the context of the passage for intended meaning. This is the accepted method of learning the point of scripture.

The passage in question is talking about alliances; worldly alliances, agreements between nations and peoples, alliances of actual physical groups..... The spiritual aspect is present only in the form of inspiring and/or directing these political alignments. Revelation is full of that sort of thing. The spiritual world influences and directs the physical world. In the passage in question, the arrangement of physical alliances is discussed.

The restrainer, therefore, is not overtly spiritual. The restrainer is either a nation or an alliance of nations. Since the passage states that the restrainer will be removed somehow, we may assume that an alliance that prevents an assault against Israel will be removed or weakened to the point where the enemies of Israel will feel no hesitation about planning and executing an attack - also a physical event, BTW. The Bible is talking about the increase and decrease of actual physical political power groups and nations. It is NOT talking about the Holy Spirit except with regard to that person's role in executing God's mercy - and the Holy Spirit, like the Father, is not taking a day off for vacation.

Rule #1 is to view Israel, the actual real nation state, as the core and object and center of Biblical prophecy. Jesus returns to Israel, not Washington, DC or Rome, Italy. ISRAEL is the political entity to watch both in the newspapers and in the Bible.

What or who, in terms of political entities, is the restrainer of those who wish to attack Israel?

The answer should be obvious - the nations of the west; Britain, France and the United States are the restrainer(s). POTUS O has already snubbed Israel and its leadership so many times that Israel, not America, has had to apologize for it. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd behavior? The tide of protection for Israel is going out - at least as far as earthly alliances and military support is concerned. I'm talking about real, not imagined, nations here.....and so is the Bible I think.

Strangely, the respect and high regard for Almighty God that former Christian nations of France, Britain and America have enjoyed is also getting thin. One might argue outward hostility toward God and His people both Jewish and Christian is at hand....and one would not have to go far to find evidence to justify such an opinion. As America withdraws its respect and humble attitude toward God, it has also withdrawn its real military and political support for Israel. Strange how these things work, isn't it?

The restrainer is America and her allies. The enemies of Israel today, as well as in the Bible, are obvious. Both the literary and actual parties have announced their intentions loudly and clearly.

"We do not know what history holds, but we know who holds history."
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Thank you for your response!

Have you ever considered our Lord is the one that strips away this "lawlessness" contextually in IIThess.2:7-8..."restrainer"?

Also how do you view "signified" in Rev.1:1 regarding the visions in Revelation, ie, why are you taking the visions so literally?

Old curious Jack

 

[Trekson]

Hi Guestman, Your words..."It also shows an arrogance, for a person is saying that all that has been presented through the Bible is not really "good" and "I don't like it." This is like the Pentecostals who basically only accept Acts 2:38, rejecting the rest of the Bible. (I had a Pentecostal couple tell me this and that even Jesus words were unimportant)"

My words...Uneducated bullcrap! I would say that Pentecostals are one of the few denominations that are sola scriptura!!!

 

[shturt678s]

Hi Guestman, Your words..."It also shows an arrogance, for a person is saying that all that has been presented through the Bible is not really "good" and "I don't like it." This is like the Pentecostals who basically only accept Acts 2:38, rejecting the rest of the Bible. (I had a Pentecostal couple tell me this and that even Jesus words were unimportant)"

My words...Uneducated bullcrap! I would say that Pentecostals are one of the few denominations that are sola scriptura!!!

Thank you for caring!

My oldest daughter is Pentecostal and will appreciate your response...will give her a head's up. I know one thing for sure, they have an exceptionally large little ones, and youth ministries during the week which to me is a big +...anything for the little one and Jesus. I, myself, have been and am an old out-dated, worn out old school ELCA Lutheran that respects all settings of course.

Old Jack.

 

[Guestman]

Hi Guestman, Your words..."It also shows an arrogance, for a person is saying that all that has been presented through the Bible is not really "good" and "I don't like it." This is like the Pentecostals who basically only accept Acts 2:38, rejecting the rest of the Bible. (I had a Pentecostal couple tell me this and that even Jesus words were unimportant)"

My words...Uneducated bullcrap! I would say that Pentecostals are one of the few denominations that are sola scriptura!!!

Why do you say that the Pentecostals are "sola scriptura" ? Are they closely adhering to the Bible ? Are they "no part of the world" (John 15:19), such as not involving themselves in the political arena or the military ? Have they sought to be spiritually clean with respect to the holidays, such as Christmas, Palm Sunday and Easter ?(2 Cor 6:14, 17, 18)

Or why is the doctrine of hell (supposedly where God eternally torments souls in a "hellfire") accepted though the Bible does not teach it ?(Jer 32:35; Ecc 9:5) Only by believing that the soul is immortal does this doctrine gain ground, but the Bible shows that the soul is not something separate from the body, but us as a person at Genesis 2:7, Deuteronomy 12:20 and Jeremiah 2:34 and that it can be destroyed at Acts 3:23 as well as at Matthew 10:28.

And concerning God's name of Jehovah, why have they hid it, like the rest of the churches have done ? Jesus taught his genuine disciples to pray for the sanctification of God's name (not his title) at Matthew 6:9. Are the Pentecostals doing this ?

And why do most Pentecostals believe that "the descriptions of heaven given in the Bible should be taken literally, including those that refer to streets of gold and mansions" since Revelation 1:1 says that the book of Revelation was "presented it in signs" ?

And of the holy spirit ? Is it part of a "Godhead" as a "person" or is it an invisible force that emanates from Jehovah God that he used in creating the universe and that can be "poured out " on qualified individuals ?(Gen 1:1, 2; Acts 10:45)

And of the speaking in tongues ? Does the Bible teach that this would be in our day ? The apostle Paul wrote: "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is (supernatural) knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with."(1 Cor 13:8-10) Then Paul uses the illustration of "a child" to show that when the Christian congregation became "a man", no longer needing any extraordinary help, the miraculous gifts of the spirit, including speaking in tongues, would "cease".(1 Cor 13:11)

 

[shturt678s]

Why do you say that the Pentecostals are "sola scriptura" ? Are they closely adhering to the Bible ? Are they "no part of the world" (John 15:19), such as not involving themselves in the political arena or the military ? Have they sought to be spiritually clean with respect to the holidays, such as Christmas, Palm Sunday and Easter ?(2 Cor 6:14, 17, 18)

Or why is the doctrine of hell (supposedly where God eternally torments souls in a "hellfire") accepted though the Bible does not teach it ?(Jer 32:35; Ecc 9:5) Only by believing that the soul is immortal does this doctrine gain ground, but the Bible shows that the soul is not something separate from the body, but us as a person at Genesis 2:7, Deuteronomy 12:20 and Jeremiah 2:34 and that it can be destroyed at Acts 3:23 as well as at Matthew 10:28.

And concerning God's name of Jehovah, why have they hid it, like the rest of the churches have done ? Jesus taught his genuine disciples to pray for the sanctification of God's name (not his title) at Matthew 6:9. Are the Pentecostals doing this ?

And why do most Pentecostals believe that "the descriptions of heaven given in the Bible should be taken literally, including those that refer to streets of gold and mansions" since Revelation 1:1 says that the book of Revelation was "presented it in signs" ?

And of the holy spirit ? Is it part of a "Godhead" as a "person" or is it an invisible force that emanates from Jehovah God that he used in creating the universe and that can be "poured out " on qualified individuals ?(Gen 1:1, 2; Acts 10:45)

And of the speaking in tongues ? Does the Bible teach that this would be in our day ? The apostle Paul wrote: "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is (supernatural) knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with."(1 Cor 13:8-10) Then Paul uses the illustration of "a child" to show that when the Christian congregation became "a man", no longer needing any extraordinary help, the miraculous gifts of the spirit, including speaking in tongues, would "cease".(1 Cor 13:11)

Thank you for caring!

Pot meet Kettle. All denominations have error mixed with truth, even myself. This is why we have God the Holy Spirit to purge these errors while people are being saved.

Old, "being saved," Jack

 

[Wormwood]

Well I think it is evident that Guestman is a JW.

Guestman, those scriptures you cited have nothing to do with Easter, Christmas, etc. I think it is noble for Christians to have used pagan holidays in the past as occasions for worshipping the one true God. There is freedom in Christ. Even Paul permitted believers to eat meat sacrificed to idols if they did it with thanksgiving to the true God (Romans 14:5-8).

Hell is a very valid concept in the Bible that is taught very clearly in the NT. Jesus spoke clearly on this. In reference to body and soul: Paul said to die in the body is to be present with the Lord (Phil. 1:23). Jesus declared that God is not the God of the dead, but the living. Revelation depicts the spirits of the slain in Christ before the throne longing for the resurrection. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise." The texts that indicate our spirits depart the body and wait to be united with a resurrected body are legion.

You have been duped by a cult that loves to major in minors. Let me ask you, if the word "Jehovah" is so important to God, why did he inspire the entire New Testament to use the generic words "Theos" (God) or "Patros" (Father) when referring to God? If Paul had no problem speaking of God as "Theos" then we shouldn't either. You should stop making judgments on others over such trivial matters.

The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person. It uses personal pronouns in reference to the Holy Spirit and says that he can be grieved and lied to. Jesus speaks of the Spirit as a person and sends "him" as a counselor.

I encourage you to take up your New Testament and try reading it afresh.

 

[RANDOR]

Did someone say....JW?...oh-boy....oh-boy........I love jw's...

 

[shturt678s]

Did someone say....JW?...oh-boy....oh-boy........I love jw's...

Thank you for caring again!

Hell is as real as it gets, brother RANDOR and I was heading that direction until our Lord Godman Jesus intervened.....thank you Jesus!

Old Jack

 

[Trekson]

Hi Guestman, If I had the time, and it would take hours, I could give you a point by point verification of all things you seem to believe are irrational. I think it irrational not to believe in them as they are what the word teaches. Your mind seems to be made up and I won't try to dissuade you from your beliefs, just know that I and many others can sense the "spirit" in which your viewpoint is offered and I don't believe it to be living in the truth.