Saved Or Predestined ???

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello EG,
I do understand what you are saying and partially agree.
Jesus pointing back to the bread from heaven in the first Exodus, declared Himself to be the True and Living bread here in the second and True Exodus.
They are confused, so the explanation offered in Jn6:37-44 is the Explanation of the Servant of the Lord coming to accomplish redemption on behalf of His Covenant people, both Jew and Gentile
See Isa49:1-8

True

And like he said, whoever SEES AND BELIEVES.

That is the most important part of the total story. It is separating the ones who believe, from those who have seen yet DO NOT BELIEVE

Every person there was drawn by God to Jesus.

But not every person there believed.

Free will decisions were made by all. Including Judas. Who Jesus had already known would betray him of his free will decision

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus said MOST humans are going to burn in Hell fire forever and ever. Of course most humans don't believe Him.

and why will they burn in hell

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

True

And like he said, whoever SEES AND BELIEVES.

That is the most important part of the total story. It is separating the ones who believe, from those who have seen yet DO NOT BELIEVE

Every person there was drawn by God to Jesus.

But not every person there believed.

Free will decisions were made by all. Including Judas. Who Jesus had already known would betray him of his free will decision

Not everyone is given by God or effectually drawn to salvation.
The bible does not teach that anywhere. Not even jn12:32,lol

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not everyone is given by God or effectually drawn to salvation.
The bible does not teach that anywhere. Not even jn12:32,lol

I never said they were

God Gave Jesus those who would believe

God does not force people do believe, He does not prevent others from believing by not given them an opportunity to be saved.

 

[kcnalp]

Jesus is God of the Bible.

John 1 The Word was God!

 

[farouk]

You've failed to address the fact you pit Scripture against Scripture, a failure to adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15, and have failed to embrace all who are in Adam are guilty, all in Christ are saved, Romans 3 &c.

Start there my friend.

Good to remember Ephesians 2.1, also...

 

[kcnalp]

Many who deny the Bible is God's Word simply hate what God said!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well, if you didn't want to take the opportunity to prove to this board the truth of what you said, promote, and believe there which you wrote in your post, so be it with you then.

Though I did Google, but did not find the supporting scriptures that you say are there.

Tong
R0105

I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I just say it, and people can take it or leave it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I never said they were

God Gave Jesus those who would believe

God does not force people do believe, He does not prevent others from believing by not given them an opportunity to be saved.

God makes Sinners willing to believe he enables them to believe savingly in Jesus. No Center ended up himself will ever believe the gospel saving apart from God and neighboring him to believe

 

[Miles]

Limited Atonement
I'd like to lovingly submit some initial thoughts on this subject that has caused so much confusion among believers. This is an introductory overview, not a heavily detailed argument - and I'm hoping some will respond on the basis of principles rather than proof texts.

· Was Christ’s death intentional for the world or just believers?
· Does Jesus death provide Atonement for all? If so why are all not saved?

Confusion surrounds this issue because of the wrong use of the word Atonement.
Theologians have for many years (centuries) used the word Atonement as a virtual alternative to the word Salvation.

I believe this came about because the church has so often appointed men as priests in accordance with human ordination (when in fact all believers are equally priests) and Atonement is the term given to the work of priests under the old covenant. So today’s ordained ministers see their work as the work of Atonement and so associate it with people’s salvation.

Yet in that part of the bible which outlines how God intended to save when Jesus finally comes (Exodus) neither priesthood nor atonement are relevant (or even mentioned) until after Israel is redeemed. The sacrifices instituting the old covenant were made by ‘young men’ not by priests. Priests had nothing to do with redemption or the inauguration of covenant and could not be ordained until a sanctuary was built in which they could serve.

Yet Israel was ‘saved’ through redemption, not atonement. Atonement was achieved by a substitutionary sacrifice offered by priests on behalf of someone(s) already redeemed. No un-redeemed person had access to priests nor atonement.

Redemption was obtained by individuals taking up the offer by God to pass over any place where blood was properly applied. Anyone could take up this offer, Jew and Egyptian alike – and anyone who did would be saved (from the judgement of death of the first-born). This did not make them a part of the covenant nation – there was no ‘Mosaic Covenant’ in existence at the point of redemption – but anyone could join the stream of the redeemed leaving bondage in Egypt to whom the covenant was to be offered and to whom Atonement for subsequent sins would be available via sacrifice.

· Is Atonement limited? Yes, provided we use that word in a biblical sense. Atonement is available only for the redeemed in covenant relationship with God to restore that relationship through forgiveness of sins committed while in that covenant relationship.
· Is the offer of Salvation universal? Yes, and once saved they have access to atonement for ongoing sins.

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture does not speak of the elect as if one not yet saved is elected to salvation, but as those who are saved are "among the elect" or a part of that group.

Greetings John C!

2 Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In the quoted scriptures above, Paul says he suffer trouble as an evil doer for the gospel. But he endure all that for the sake of the elect, so that they, the elect, also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

Who are the elect Paul is referring to there? Obviously, the elect there does not refer to Christians.

The point in this is that, the elect when mentioned in scriptures, does not necessarily mean to refer to the Christians or the converted.

Tong
R0106

*edited: changed 2 Tim. 1 to 2 Tim. 2

 

[Tong2020]

You don't understand the implications of your theology, so let me enlighten you. If some are irresistibly saved and some are passed by, that is the preordained plan. So, if they became wicked, it was God's doing, not thier doing. So, what you have then, is God ordaining thier rebellion, then killing them off because of what he caused. Do a little study on determinism, because that's what you are promoting.
God says he regretted making them, because of thier wickedness. This statement can not make sense in your system.

That comment is coming from my post#246 (Saved Or Predestined ???).

To have that comment in the proper context, the preordained plan of the Sovereign God I mentioned there in post #246 speaks not of the whole plan of God but refers specifically to what I said in that post, and I quote "in scriptures, God, from Adam, put them outside the garden of Eden, had them multiplied, until the generation of Noah. Until God said "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.".

When I say that that is the preordained plan of God, it is not to mean that it is God who did what Adam did, or that He forced Adam to sin or caused him to sin. It is not also to mean that God caused them posterity of Adam to be wicked. In this plan of God, is included the creation of man with a will of his own and allowing him to make a choice.

Renniks: God says he regretted making them, because of thier wickedness. This statement can not make sense in your system.

As I said in my post #246, and I quote "The Christians know very well that God makes no mistake. That attribute of God, by itself is telling the reader that it is not what it sounds like. Unless, you believe that God does make mistakes that he could repent and regret. If that were the case, there is not a day that pass by that God does not regret having created man."

That part of scriptures was written not to mean that God is a God who makes mistakes so that He regrets every time things go from bad to worst. It was written to send a message that sure is full of a lot of sense. Obviously, such message is not seen by just any reader of scriptures. And sadly, some even use them to make God appear to be a lesser God.

Tong
R0107

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There can be no other scenario Renniks, except that all that ever happens and come to pass, are what God had in His plan, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees that He had set out to govern all of that He will create. For there is none that is outside of God before creation. There could be none that could exist and happen if not what is within what was created by Him and ordained by Him to happen or allowed to happen. There is no random event that happens outside of what God had made. And as it is God who sustains and holds all creation together as to exist as they exist from the time they were created, existing within the ordained and designed processes of change they are ordained and allowed to go through time during their existence, all living and moving in accordance to and within their given boundaries and freedom, without contradiction and conflict with one another, God must inevitably be in control of them all, else we could not even imagine what will be the result of that and how that will be.

You said "Even I can know what I'm going to do once I plan to do it." Do you? You only think you do or had convinced yourself that you do. For only God can, for only God is omniscient and the absolute yes and no and is immutable.

You said "If God already ordained all that was to happen, seeing the future doesn't require omniscience." Seeing the future does not require omniscience because seeing the future is an aspect of God's omniscience as seeing the past is an aspect of His omniscience as well.

You said "If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil, which would not make him the God of scripture." I have to admit, this is truly a very very difficult subject for us humans in that this is not even about the already very difficult and complicated subject of origins or beginnings, but is about the subject of that which is without origin or beginning nor end ~ God, the infinite, the perfect, the eternal, the spiritual, the sovereign, the holy, the good, the infallible, the omniscient, the omnipotent, the omnipresent, the immutable, the creator, etc. As a comment on that very delicate and complex subject, here's one that God had decreed involving man, Israel in particular, and what Paul have to say about that:

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Is that evil? So, even before we can really start talking about your statement there, this simple question must first be answered. Also, is that included in the "evil" in your statement?

Tong
R0100

You just quoted a verse that contradicts your claims. Notice that Paul says God did this ( only because of thier initial disobedience) so that he could have mercy on all and yet you claim he only chooses to reveal himself to some.
Yes there's a mystery about how God interacts with mankind. He never fully explains it in scripture. But the mystery is not about what God desires. He always desires the restoration of all things and people.
Jesus said he came to bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free. No limits to who those captives are, or which he desires to free.

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

I cited that scriptures to somehow bring you to reconsider whatever it is you believe is evil for you said "If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil.." And so I ask you, is the act of God committing them all to disobedience, evil or not? And you apparently can't even answer that or don't want to answer it. So by that, your statement really does not carry much meaning on the term "evil".

Renniks: Notice that Paul says God did this ( only because of thier initial disobedience) so that he could have mercy on all and yet you claim he only chooses to reveal himself to some.

Initial disobedience? What initial disobedience are you talking about? You said "mercy on all". Who do you refer in the "all"?

Tong
R0108

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, it's like saying that you have the power or are able to undo what the omnipotent God, your omnipotent God even, had predestined. How can you hold on such a position? Is it because you believe that your "free will" somehow keep hold of God, or that your "free will" somehow makes you sort of like an untouchable to God?

You misunderstand how God works. God gave us freewill.

"God is good toward all who accept His goodness. And for those who reject His goodness, there’s nothing that even the Almighty God can do if He’s going to allow man his free will—and I believe in free will. Free will was given as a gift of God—He’s given us a little provisional sovereignty out of His absolute sovereignty. He has said, “I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell.” If a man will not take God’s goodness, then he must have God’s severity toward all who continue in moral revolt against the throne of God and in rebellion against the virtuous laws of God." ( AW Tozer)

Renniks: God gave us freewill.

I did not say otherwise. The matter is I am not making free will as some power that can undo what the omnipotent God had predestined, as you do.

To comment on the last paragraph of your post, it says "God is good toward all who accept His goodness.". Why, is He not good to those who don't? If He is not good to them, then does that not imply that He is bad or evil to them? Which of course is a lie.

AW Tozer: He has said, “I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell.”

Of course God did not say that. AW Tozer obviously is him who said that.

Tong
R0109

 

[Enoch111]

· Was Christ’s death intentional for the world or just believers?

Since the Bible plainly states that Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world, this matter is not even debatable. Even Calvin would not dare say that "the world" in John 1:29 was anything less that the world of humanity (the human race)

Does Jesus death provide Atonement for all?

Absolutely. If all would repent and believe all would be saved. That too is clearly presented in Scripture.

If so why are all not saved?

Jesus gave us the answer and that should suffice:

JOHN 3: SOME CHOOSE TO REFUSE AND REJECT CHRIST
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, you can say that if you like. Either me or you could not tell with absolute certainty if any of them later believe or did not. And I only had explained my position, and you have not.

If they were among those who were hardened by God, we also don't know. But if they were, then none of them could be one of those who believed. So it's all but speculation and presumptions and guessing. Though, in all likelihood, as far as is told about them by scriptures, they are not sheep.

You've been silent about the parable of the wheat and the tares. Have you read it yet?

Tong
R0104

I've read the entire Bible, multiple times. So, you have changed your position on his sheep and those who can become sheep? You don't seem so sure that Jesus was saying what you claimed he said.

Renniks: So, you have changed your position on his sheep and those who can become sheep?

Have not. There is no such thing as "becoming sheep". What is there is seeking out and bringing of the lost sheep to the fold.

Renniks: You don't seem so sure that Jesus was saying what you claimed he said.

Of course, I am sure. You said in one of your post "Did any of the people to who Jesus said "You are not my sheep.", which would be all the people he was talking to at that time, later become saved? If even one did, your whole theory is proven wrong. We know that Jesus was talking to the Jews and many of them did become converted at Pentecost." What I said was all said in that context and in response to that.

By the way, until now you are silent on the parable of the wheat and the tares. So, I think it's time to post it here:

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

The Parable of the Tares Explained
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Clearly, the Christian could see, from the start there were the good seeds, that is the wheat in the parable, the sons of the kingdom, and the tares, the sons of the wicked one (the devil). There were no sons of the wicked that became sons of the kingdom nor there were no sons of the kingdom that became sons of the wicked. There were to tares that became wheat nor the opposite.

Do you see now and understand the kingdom of heaven? As Jesus said there in verse 43 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Tong
R0110

 

[Tong2020]

I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I just say it, and people can take it or leave it.

Thank you Paul Christensen for letting me know of that about you as early as now.

Tong
R0111

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God makes Sinners willing to believe he enables them to believe savingly in Jesus. No Center ended up himself will ever believe the gospel saving apart from God and neighboring him to believe

Your correct. No one will come to Jesus by himself

But God does not prevent others from coming to him, simply by not showing them truth in a way they can understand and allowing them to chose if they want to know more.

if he does. He has serious problems. He is not the loving God he claims to be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Limited Atonement
I'd like to lovingly submit some initial thoughts on this subject that has caused so much confusion among believers. This is an introductory overview, not a heavily detailed argument - and I'm hoping some will respond on the basis of principles rather than proof texts.

· Was Christ’s death intentional for the world or just believers?
· Does Jesus death provide Atonement for all? If so why are all not saved?

Confusion surrounds this issue because of the wrong use of the word Atonement.
Theologians have for many years (centuries) used the word Atonement as a virtual alternative to the word Salvation.

I believe this came about because the church has so often appointed men as priests in accordance with human ordination (when in fact all believers are equally priests) and Atonement is the term given to the work of priests under the old covenant. So today’s ordained ministers see their work as the work of Atonement and so associate it with people’s salvation.

Yet in that part of the bible which outlines how God intended to save when Jesus finally comes (Exodus) neither priesthood nor atonement are relevant (or even mentioned) until after Israel is redeemed. The sacrifices instituting the old covenant were made by ‘young men’ not by priests. Priests had nothing to do with redemption or the inauguration of covenant and could not be ordained until a sanctuary was built in which they could serve.

Yet Israel was ‘saved’ through redemption, not atonement. Atonement was achieved by a substitutionary sacrifice offered by priests on behalf of someone(s) already redeemed. No un-redeemed person had access to priests nor atonement.

Redemption was obtained by individuals taking up the offer by God to pass over any place where blood was properly applied. Anyone could take up this offer, Jew and Egyptian alike – and anyone who did would be saved (from the judgement of death of the first-born). This did not make them a part of the covenant nation – there was no ‘Mosaic Covenant’ in existence at the point of redemption – but anyone could join the stream of the redeemed leaving bondage in Egypt to whom the covenant was to be offered and to whom Atonement for subsequent sins would be available via sacrifice.

· Is Atonement limited? Yes, provided we use that word in a biblical sense. Atonement is available only for the redeemed in covenant relationship with God to restore that relationship through forgiveness of sins committed while in that covenant relationship.
· Is the offer of Salvation universal? Yes, and once saved they have access to atonement for ongoing sins.

if we look at the "day of atonement" and what it represents. I think we will see that atonement is for everyone

The atonement was made for all Isreal.

Just like the sacrificial death of the lamb of God is made for all mankind. (as God told abraham in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed)

Now while the atonement of the high priest never literally removed or atoned for anyone's sin. It did give us a picture of Christ. which was the purpose of the law (Gal 3) in That Christ redeemed the sins of mankind through his own sacrificial death, on the day of atonement.

Also remember, what occurred when Israel was redeemed, or set free from slavery? The Passover sacrifice. Remember it was that sacrifice, and the blood put on the door of those who believed, which set them free. It even set some egyptions free. as many Egyptians went with them

To redeem, is to purchase. Our freedom/forgiveness is purchased. In the law this purchase was the shedding of blood of animals

In Christianity, the purchase was the blood of Christ.

We can not forget the price of redemption.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Redemption is paid by the atoning sacrifice of the lamb. In our case the lamb of God

Jesus tells us plainly The lamb came to save the world. Not just specific individuals.

He paid the price of redemption through his atoning sacrifice. But he will not force anyone to receive his gift of salvation.

 

[John Caldwell]

Greetings John C!

2 Tim. 1:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In the quoted scriptures above, Paul says he suffer trouble as an evil doer for the gospel. But he endure all that for the sake of the elect, so that they, the elect, also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

Who are the elect Paul is referring to there? Obviously, the elect there does not refer to Christians.

The point in this is that, the elect when mentioned in scriptures, does not necessarily mean to refer to the Christians or the converted.

Tong
R0106

IMHO the context presents the "elect" as Christians with the view of an ultimate salvation ("on that day"). It is corporate. The elect as a whole group.