Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

What does that tell us? Simply that God does the work of salvation and not us. It says nothing about us being incapable of seeking after salvation.

Obviously, the term "slave" is used figurately by Paul to refer to those who are lost in sin, and also he says we can be a slave to Christ. But he also says we need to submit to Christ because we are his slaves. So obviously, this slavery doesn't cancel out our choices to either follow him or not. It's not absolute bondage that makes change impossible.
"If another should command him to do something, even while he is willing to do it, he just can't as he is held captive by his master. So, for him to be able, he must first be set free from his slavery."
No, this is incorrect. If one is willing to change, God is willing to help them change. The only power Satan has to hold anyone is the power we give him. All it takes to change is a willingness to cry out to God and he will not fail to hear and rescue us.

You asked "What does that tell us?" More than what you say there that God does the work of salvation and not man, that man is helpless like a slave, does not own himself but owned by another, can't do what he wills to do that is contrary to his master's will. Now, there are slaves who wants to be freed from their slavery, and there are those who don't. But those who want to be freed, while they wanted to, they just could do nothing about it and are content perhaps. If the man knows and believes in the true God, I will agree that he can cry out to Him for help. But if the man knows him not and knows another god, he of course cries out to them and not to God whom he does not know. That was my point, when I pointed to what Paul said in Romans 10, "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?". One can only seek him that he knows and calls on him whom he believes.

You said "the term "slave" is used figurately by Paul to refer to those who are lost in sin, and also he says we can be a slave to Christ." Paul, in saying that we can be slaves, or rather are slaves of Christ, refers to the converted, not to the unconverted.

You said "If one is willing to change, God is willing to help them change." Why do you refuse to acknowledge the nature of man? I could only hope that the nature of man was as you say here and make it appear to be, and not as scriptures say it is. But it is just not as you say it is. For as I pointed out, the testimony of God in scriptures concerning the nature of man is of one that is corrupt and overtaken by sin and death, whose thoughts are continuously evil and whose heart's intents are evil from his youth, and of which none fails not to fall into sin, even Noah and Cornelius.

Tong
R0362

 

[Tong2020]

Then you are saying what you claimed you did not say, that God preordained all of man's sin?

Far from it sir. As I said, in case you did not get this, that when God planned from eternity past, when there was no creation yet, God's omniscience, perfect wisdom, omnipresence, holiness, love, sovereignty, justice, goodness, righteousness, immutability, omnipotence, eternality, etc. etc., came into play, so that all that came to pass and will come to pass, good and evil alike are exactly that which came out of that.

Now, how is it, as it seemed to me, that you read scriptures and try to make it appear as though you know what God could do and could not do, or what is just and what is not just, pertaining to His actions regarding His salvation of man? If we don't question why God destroyed all mankind except only 8 out of probably millions, and did not give them more time and reason for them to repent, or perhaps had manifested Himself to them as He did to Abraham, or performed miracles before their very eyes as He did in the time of the Exodus or in the time of Jesus, why do we now seem to question His actions pertaining to His salvation? Should we not likewise simply believe what scriptures says He had done, as we believe that which He had done in the days of Noah without question?

Tong
R0363

 

[Candidus]

Now, you argue "If men can't seek God, then God is unjust in punishing them for not seeking him!" God is not unjust. God do not punish them for not seeking Him. God punishes them for their sin.

"A mother conceives an unaccountable antipathy to her sucking child. She goes to the brink of a precipice, bends herself over it with the passive infant in her bosom, and, withdrawing her arms from under him, drops him upon the craggy side of a rock, and thus he rolls down from rock to rock, till he lies at the bottom beaten to pieces, a bloody instance of finished destruction. The judge asks the murderer what she has to say in her own defense. The child was mine, replies she, and I have a right to do what I please with my own. Besides, I did neither throw him down nor murder him: I only withdrew my arms from under him, and he fell of his own accord, in mystic Geneva she is honorably acquitted; but in, England the executioner is ordered to rid the earth of the cruel monster.

So may God give us commission to rid the Church of your Diana, who teaches that he, the Father of mercies, does by millions of his passive children, what the barbarous mother did by one of hers; affirming, that he unconditionally withholds grace from them; and that, by absolutely refusing to be “the author and finisher of their faith,” he is the absolute author and finisher of their unbelief, and consequently of their sin and damnation." ~John Fletcher

 

[Renniks]

According to scriptures, there are those born according to the flesh and those born according to the Spirit. Do you believe and accept that? Two different kinds, don't you agree? And what do you know about those born according to the flesh and those born according to the Spirit?

Tong
R0358

At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." (Galations
4)
Yes, there are those born of the flesh, and it's obviously our choice whether we are born only of the flesh or we are born of the Spirit.

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." This has nothing to do with some people being born destined for salvation.

 

[Renniks]

First, there is no "All men die" in the passage I quoted. So, I don't have a take on that.

What I was saying is that, in 1 Corinthians 15:20, physical death is in view more than that of the spiritual, as per the context. But death, physical or spiritual, is condemnation, the wages of sin. And since all man dies, even the infants die, all then are condemned in this sense. Why is that?

Tong
R0360

We are condemned to physical death because of the world now being under the curse. We are all condemned to spiritual death because we all sin. But, we are also all made alive through Christ, which gives all the opportunity to be raised to life.

 

[Renniks]

Well, I have shown you what man is according to scriptures, which you have not rebutted, but just said that I am wrong. You don't believe scriptures that testified since the fall of Adam, who and what man is, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, even them whom God had chosen among mankind (physical Israel), to whom He even revealed Himself in a very special and convincing way that He is God and there is none other, and even made covenant with them. That is mankind according to God, my friend. But you still choose to believe in what you think the nature of man is.

The very fact that man has done these things says nothing about his ability to seek God. Yes, man is sinful and yes, man can seek God and be cleansed. Otherwise, you have an unjust God who is punishing people for something they can't help. If I punished my child for an involuntary action, you would think I was a very cruel parent. But, you seen to think this is how God operates.

Well, let me be as open as I could be with you in this discussion. So, you mentioned of Noah, Cornelius, perhaps a few more among the millions of other men and women who had lived and died. If you can do some math, try taking the percentage of the Noahs and Corneliuses with respect to all of man that existed. Or to be simpler, try calculating what percentage the 8 persons saved in the flood at Noah's time with respect to those killed. If even for just say only a million people died in Noah's time, 8 people would constitute only about 0.0008%. My point is that, the number of such persons appears to be very very far from making a case and argument regarding the nature of man. You even have proven by what the scriptures says of the nature of man, when you said "God said there was nothing more he could have done to make his people bear fruit, to make them his." That's just an expression of what the nature of of the kind of Adam is my friend. And again in this quote "2All day long I have held out My hands to an obstinate people who walk in the wrong path, who follow their own imaginations,…". And that even are already people whom God had revealed Himself by special revelations. All those confirm the corrupted nature of man. Now God did not create Adam like so. So, why is man as such as scriptures testifies of him? Is it because of Adam?

Now, you argue "If men can't seek God, then God is unjust in punishing them for not seeking him!" God is not unjust. God do not punish them for not seeking Him. God punishes them for their sin.

Tong
R0361

Lol, so first you say man is to corrupted that he can't respond to God and then you again claim God is still just for punishing him. This is not the God of the Bible. You need to develop a Christ-centered image of God. Jesus was the perfect image of the Father and his response to man's sin was to allow himself to be murdered in order to save "whosoever will" God isn't all about flexing his muscles and punishing people. The perfect image of God is seen in his sacrificial, self-giving love, for all.

 

[Renniks]

You asked "What does that tell us?" More than what you say there that God does the work of salvation and not man, that man is helpless like a slave, does not own himself but owned by another, can't do what he wills to do that is contrary to his master's will. Now, there are slaves who wants to be freed from their slavery, and there are those who don't. But those who want to be freed, while they wanted to, they just could do nothing about it and are content perhaps. If the man knows and believes in the true God, I will agree that he can cry out to Him for help. But if the man knows him not and knows another god, he of course cries out to them and not to God whom he does not know. That was my point, when I pointed to what Paul said in Romans 10, "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?". One can only seek him that he knows and calls on him whom he believes.

If that were true, you would have a catch 22 situation where no one could be saved. Jesus said the one who seeks will find. He didn't lay any conditions on it and say, that doesn't apply is you happen to have been born a Muslim or a buddist. Do you know that God is revealing himself to Muslims as Jesus even in their dreams? Again, you limit God to only working on people that are like you. God reveals himself to all according to scripture so that men are without excuse. If he never gives them enough knowledge to come to him, they would have the perfect excuse at the judgement.

You said "the term "slave" is used figurately by Paul to refer to those who are lost in sin, and also he says we can be a slave to Christ." Paul, in saying that we can be slaves, or rather are slaves of Christ, refers to the converted, not to the unconverted.

No, he uses it in both senses, first that we were slaves to sin and now are slaves to Christ:Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.…

If you can still fail to be a perfect slave to Christ as a Born again believer, why would you believe that your slaver to sin previously was so complete that you could not choose Christ? In either case, you can see that our obligation is to do something about the state we are in. If still slaves to sin, our obligation is to cry out to God for rescue. If slaves to righteousness our obligation is to continue in the path he has put before us instead of falling back into sin. God doesn't make the choice for us, otherwise, Paul would not be urging believers to "offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." To offer ourselves requires something of us. It's not automatic.


[/QUOTE]

You said "If one is willing to change, God is willing to help them change." Why do you refuse to acknowledge the nature of man? I could only hope that the nature of man was as you say here and make it appear to be, and not as scriptures say it is. But it is just not as you say it is. For as I pointed out, the testimony of God in scriptures concerning the nature of man is of one that is corrupt and overtaken by sin and death, whose thoughts are continuously evil and whose heart's intents are evil from his youth, and of which none fails not to fall into sin, even Noah and Cornelius.

Tong
R0362

Did God hit you over the head and drag you into the kingdom or did you respond to his invitation and grace? We are in a battle between good and evil and that includes all. You see this in unsaved people as well as saved. We all fight with our sinful inclinations. Very rarely, as CS Lewis says will there be a man who just says: " To hell with any standard of right and wrong." (I'm paraphrasing, but only slightly.) Even the unsaved will have some standard of what right and wrong is because we all have a God-given conscience. This is the image of God in men. We get to decide whether we follow the light or succumb to the dark. Good grief, the entire Bible makes this clear over and over again, I don't see how anyone can miss it.

 

[Renniks]

Far from it sir. As I said, in case you did not get this, that when God planned from eternity past, when there was no creation yet, God's omniscience, perfect wisdom, omnipresence, holiness, love, sovereignty, justice, goodness, righteousness, immutability, omnipotence, eternality, etc. etc., came into play, so that all that came to pass and will come to pass, good and evil alike are exactly that which came out of that.

Now, how is it, as it seemed to me, that you read scriptures and try to make it appear as though you know what God could do and could not do, or what is just and what is not just, pertaining to His actions regarding His salvation of man? If we don't question why God destroyed all mankind except only 8 out of probably millions, and did not give them more time and reason for them to repent, or perhaps had manifested Himself to them as He did to Abraham, or performed miracles before their very eyes as He did in the time of the Exodus or in the time of Jesus, why do we now seem to question His actions pertaining to His salvation? Should we not likewise simply believe what scriptures says He had done, as we believe that which He had done in the days of Noah without question?

Tong
R0363

You are setting up some kind of strawman argument here, it seems. Why would I question what God has done in the past? God is perfectly just. What he did was obviously in response to what he knew men would do. He gave men plenty of time to repent before the flood, so that is not an issue. I'm not questioning his actions pertaining to salvation, I am trying to explain them to you. And again, you misinterpret what sovereignty is. It's not controlling or planning all of the actions of the creation beforehand. Sovereignty is having ultimate power and authority, it's has nothing to do with ordaining everything beforehand.

 

[Candidus]

I believe that this can be brought to the middle where it aligns with Scripture.

The two sides are:

A).God must act for man to respond. He must precede with grace.

B). Man must respond and is not a passive victim in salvation.

One side sees all grace as coercive, the other side sees free-will as necessary for punishment to be just. Instead of running to the left or the right, I see Scripture as teaching both. It is not an either/or, but a both/and.

Scripture tells us that no one comes to the Father unless he is first drawn. God precedes, we respond. Scripture also shows us that men resist the Holy Spirit and reject Christ. Any grace that goes "before" is not coercive.

Once God reveals sin to an individual, they can see their dilemma and respond by "seeking" who God is, and how to be reconciled to that God. This is not "saving" grace, but "convicting" grace. This is not "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps" or being saved by a better "education" or better "decision" to be saved. When God lays the grace of salvation in your lap, it is yours... if you do not reject the gift. Once again, God precedes, man responds. There is no merit in not rejecting the offer. Man does not "will" themselves into salvation, yet no one is saved apart from their "will"!

 

[Candidus]

You are setting up some kind of strawman argument here, it seems. Why would I question what God has done in the past? God is perfectly just. What he did was obviously in response to what he knew men would do. He gave men plenty of time to repent before the flood, so that is not an issue. I'm not questioning his actions pertaining to salvation, I am trying to explain them to you. And again, you misinterpret what sovereignty is. It's not controlling or planning all of the actions of the creation beforehand. Sovereignty is having ultimate power and authority, it's has nothing to do with ordaining everything beforehand.

For hundreds of years we had the King James Bible as our primary source in English. Yet, not one time did the King James call God "Sovereign." I would ask any theologian how they could build an entire system of belief, making everything hinge on Sovereignty, when the Bible never said such a thing?

Now, later versions go out of their way to include Sovereignty, mostly to sell Bibles to Fatalists.... I do not deny that God is sovereign, yet I would not have the audacity to dictate to God what He does, or does not do in His sovereignty!

(S)overeignty has become an Idol for many.

 

[Candidus]

And again, you misinterpret what sovereignty is. It's not controlling or planning all of the actions of the creation beforehand. Sovereignty is having ultimate power and authority, it's has nothing to do with ordaining everything beforehand.

A wrong understanding of (S)overeignty demands that "Because you are Sovereign God, I demand that you have to do things the way I think a Sovereign God HAS TO ACT!"

 

[Tong2020]

In the case of Levi, he was "counted" as being a participant in Abrahams tithing.

I agree. Levi is considered to have done the righteous act of Abraham. In the same sense, mankind is considered to have done the sinful act of Adam, which brought condemnation, that is death, not only to himself but to all those who are in him, that is, his posterity.

I ask this simple question to you: Do you have knowledge of good and evil? If your answer is yes, would you say it has something to do with Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Sinning in Adam is not actual active "sinning" before we exist.......

The matter is, it's still sinning.

No one goes to Hell for just being human.

Why was Abel outside the garden, with no access to the tree of life? Would you say that Abel deserved to be outside the garden?

As the sin of Adam has a universal effect on all mankind, so does the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, have a universal effect on all mankind.

Adam's sinful act, affects all mankind who are in him, thus the phrase "in Adam all die". Jesus Christ's righteous act, affects those who are in Him, thus the phrase "in Christ all shall be made alive."

Tong
R0364

 

[Tong2020]

At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." (Galations
4)
Yes, there are those born of the flesh, and it's obviously our choice whether we are born only of the flesh or we are born of the Spirit.

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." This has nothing to do with some people being born destined for salvation.

If you believe that birth is somehow your choice, as with that of the Spirit, then so be it with you. But while you may believe that such birth is of your choosing, to the infant it remains to be God's choice. As for me, I believe what scriptures say, that those born according to the Spirit were born, not of the will of man, but of the will of God.

Where would you say those born according to the Spirit go, heaven or hell?
Where would you say those born according to the flesh go, heaven or hell?

Tong
R0365

 

[Tong2020]

We are condemned to physical death because of the world now being under the curse. We are all condemned to spiritual death because we all sin. But, we are also all made alive through Christ, which gives all the opportunity to be raised to life.

What??? We are condemned to physical death because of the world now being under the curse? Where is that coming from? The wages of sin is death. We die, be it physically or spiritually, because of sin. That is what scriptures say and teach. You don't want to change that, or do you?

Tong
R0366

 

[Tong2020]

The very fact that man has done these things says nothing about his ability to seek God. Yes, man is sinful and yes, man can seek God and be cleansed. Otherwise, you have an unjust God who is punishing people for something they can't help. If I punished my child for an involuntary action, you would think I was a very cruel parent. But, you seen to think this is how God operates.

Since you refuse to acknowledge the testimony of God in scriptures concerning the fallen nature of man, I'll leave it at that then.

Lol, so first you say man is to corrupted that he can't respond to God and then you again claim God is still just for punishing him. This is not the God of the Bible. You need to develop a Christ-centered image of God. Jesus was the perfect image of the Father and his response to man's sin was to allow himself to be murdered in order to save "whosoever will" God isn't all about flexing his muscles and punishing people. The perfect image of God is seen in his sacrificial, self-giving love, for all.

Why would God be not just in punishing a sinner? God is not punishing him for being born with a corrupted nature, but for being a sinner.

You said "...his response to man's sin was to allow himself to be murdered....". That is not the whole truth. Jesus also showed his wrath towards man's sin.

You said "The perfect image of God is seen in his sacrificial, self-giving love, for all. " Again, while there is some truth in that, it comes short in stating the perfect image of God, who is Jesus Christ. For everything of Jesus Christ is what is the perfect image of God.

Tong
R0367

 

[Renniks]

If you believe that birth is somehow your choice, as with that of the Spirit, then so be it with you. But while you may believe that such birth is of your choosing, to the infant it remains to be God's choice. As for me, I believe what scriptures say, that those born according to the Spirit were born, not of the will of man, but of the will of God.

Where would you say those born according to the Spirit go, heaven or hell?
Where would you say those born according to the flesh go, heaven or hell?

Tong
R0365

This has nothing to do with infants. Where are you getting that from what Paul says about being born of flesh or the spirit? We don't decide to be physically born. But we must believe to be born again.

Or as Jesus says:
" flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
In other words;"
Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life."

But what are the conditions for one to be born again?"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life."

 

[Renniks]

What??? We are condemned to physical death because of the world now being under the curse? Where is that coming from? The wages of sin is death. We die, be it physically or spiritually, because of sin. That is what scriptures say and teach. You don't want to change that, or do you?

Tong
R0366

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

Of course, the curse was the result of man's sin, but the cause of death was God cursing man and the earth because of sin. God said if they ate of the tree they would die, and so they eventually did.

 

[Renniks]

Why would God be not just in punishing a sinner? God is not punishing him for being born with a corrupted nature, but for being a sinner.

This is just talking in circles. If God is punishing people for their sin, while giving them no other option, then is that not God actually punishing them for what they were born to do? In fact, you have already claimed some are born only to be fleshly, that is, sinful. If God offers all salvation, then, no he is not being unjust by punishing those who refuse his offer.

 

[Renniks]

Since you refuse to acknowledge the testimony of God in scriptures concerning the fallen nature of man, I'll leave it at that then.

Why would God be not just in punishing a sinner? God is not punishing him for being born with a corrupted nature, but for being a sinner.

You said "...his response to man's sin was to allow himself to be murdered....". That is not the whole truth. Jesus also showed his wrath towards man's sin.

Sure he did. He showed wrath to people who had been given the very oracles of God and yet failed both in teaching others correctly about God's nature and in accepting that he was the long-awaited Messiah. That is just wrath. If he was merely wrathful at people for being what they would born to be, that would be unjust wrath.

You said "The perfect image of God is seen in his sacrificial, self-giving love, for all. " Again, while there is some truth in that, it comes short in stating the perfect image of God, who is Jesus Christ. For everything of Jesus Christ is what is the perfect image of God.

Tong
R0367

And what Jesus ultimately did was to offer himself up for the sacrifice for everyone's sin, once and for all. It was the reason he came to earth. In this, he best expressed the nature of God. You need to develop a cruciform understanding of God to get who he really is. What the Old Testament reveals is a very incomplete picture of him, yet some seem stuck there and never get past God being all about judgment.

 

[Candidus]

I agree. Levi is considered to have done the righteous act of Abraham. In the same sense, mankind is considered to have done the sinful act of Adam, which brought condemnation, that is death, not only to himself but to all those who are in him, that is, his posterity.

By heredity we are created fallen since Adam Fell. God does not consider our birth a sinful act. There is no sinful act that we are counted as doing.