Sign Gifts Semi-Safe House

[Curtis]

1Co 12:30

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Even in the period in which NOBODY SAYS THAT TONGUES Has "passed away" - Paul asserts there are those that don't have healing gift, don't speak in tongues, don't interpret

So I don't dismiss it if someone says they were baptized in the Holy Spirit yet never spoke in tongues -- I don't seek to put the Holy Ghost in a box

Except there are three kinds of tongues in scripture - Paul wrote that there are diversities of tongues.

Two types are unknown. One unknown tongue is a personal prayer language that all who are spirit-filled get, per Jesus in Mark 16 - these signs follow those who believe... they shall speak with a new tongue; and Romans 8:26, the Spirit prays for us for things we know not how to pray for as we ough.
The other unknown tongue is called prophecy, that is a message to a congregation, that is interpreted - and that’s a HS gift not everyone gets.

In the NT the evidence someone has been filled with the HS, is that they speak in tongues.

Like when Simon the sorcerer saw the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands - the only way you can know that they’ve received it, is because they start speaking in tongues.

Acts 2, when the HS fell, all 120 believers present spoke in tongues, not just some of them.

Acts 10, Peter hears the group he’s preaching to, begin to speak in tongues, and by that knew they’d received the HS, as did the apostles.

And:
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Shalom.

 

[Curtis]

I never actually met anyone who said those who do not talk in tongues are not saved. I have heard of people like that, but never seen them.

New ground is opened up in this thread - discussing SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT, which is not really a "gift" - and perhaps DREAM stuff, not a gift either...

It’s the United Pentecostal Church that teaches that, not to be confused with regular Pentecostals

They are also modalists, aka, Jesus only - that believe there’s only Jesus, who plays the roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I worked with a guy in UPC, and we had a lot of debates on the trinity vs modalism .

Oh, and they’re very legalistic - can’t have a TV, women can’t wear makeup, must wear long hair and long dresses, jewelry is forbidden, etc.

 

[Curtis]

The problem with Pentecostals and Charismatics is that they treat everything supernatural and every manifestation as coming from the Holy Spirit. It seems that there is little or no perception that a manifestation could come from the flesh or even a demonic kundalini spirit.

The Scripture says to test all things and hold to that which is good. We have to ask about what is the spiritual outcome of a physical or sensual manifestation? Does it reflect the fruit of the Spirit, especially self-control, and does it bring a person closer in their heart to Christ? Those are the important questions about any form of falling backwards, shaking, jerking, uncontrolled laughter, public tongues without interpretation.

Their mistake is not realizing that manifestation of the Holy Spirit needs controlled, hence Paul telling the Corinthian church to limit the exercising of the legitimate HS gifts of tongues and prophecy, so that all things are done decently and in order.

When the power of the HS surges through the human body, it can cause reactions from falling down, to acting drunk.

On Pentecost those who received the HS were accused of being drunk by those watching them.

When the HS is manifesting powerfully, there needs to be some restraint used in the church by the congregation.

 

[Curtis]

It is interesting that on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and filled the 120, the description did not include falling backwards, jerking, shaking or convulsive laughter. They did speak in tongues, because it was a gathering for prayer and not a public meeting. But when the crowd outside heard the speaking in tongues, it was supernaturally interpreted to their ears in their own regional dialects. It wasn't vain, meaningless babbling. Similarly, with Cornelius' household and the 12 Ephesus disciples, we see them speaking in tongues and prophesying, but no mention of being "slain" in the Spirit, jerking or shaking or any other convulsive kundalini manifestations.

We have to take notice of how the presence of the Holy Spirit affecting people is described in the New Testament and base our discernment of what is or what is not the Holy Spirit based on that.

But they WERE accused of being drunk when speaking in tongues, aka being drunk in the spirit...

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Peter's Sermon at Pentecost

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Gods power surging through the body can overwhelm the nervous system, causing falling down, or acting drunk.

 

[Curtis]

I don't. I was blessed in my early 20s that I was trained in the things of the Holy Spirit by a traditional, old time, Pentecostal pastor who believed that in order to move in the Holy Spirit, one had to be a person of prayer and the Word. He wouldn't have had a bar of churches like Bethel or Hillsong, and he would have treated prosperity preachers like Kenny Copeland as total heretics. He was so strict that when I was invited to have dinner with a couple from a local "Oneness" Pentecostal church, he said that if I went, I should leave his church. I complied with his wishes because I knew that the Holy Spirit had called me to his church, and looking back over the years, I'm glad I obeyed him.

The Bible teaches prosperity, the problem is when it’s exclusively emphasized and way out of balance.

Even Jesus promised a hundredfold return on houses and lands given up for the sake of the gospel, so He could be accused of being a prosperity preacher...

 

[Curtis]

The Apostles Traveling, to foreign cities, as they were sent out, often had crowds standing to listen. BY THEM fulfilling their commission to travel, to speak, the Holy Spirit gave them the power to Speak in Foreign Languages, that foreign listeners could understand in THEIR native tongue.
(More modernly people study to learn multiple languages, or have an interpreter, onhand who is skilled in duel languages TO "instantly" interpret.)

Indeed, that’s because as Paul wrote, there are DIVERSITIES of tongues, not just one type.

There are three types found in scripture - a tongue understood by all, as happened on Pentecost, plus two unknown tongues - one of which is never understood by anyone but God, and one that is unknown, but is interpreted, because it’s a prophetical message to a congregation.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The Bible teaches prosperity, the problem is when it’s exclusively emphasized and way out of balance.

Even Jesus promised a hundredfold return on houses and lands given up for the sake of the gospel, so He could be accused of being a prosperity preacher...

Where did Jesus say that?

In actual fact, Biblical prosperity is having one's basic needs met - food to eat, clothes to wear, and a roof over one's head that doesn't leak, and maybe a car that one spends more time in it than under it. In African countries, prosperity for a preacher is that he might have a bicycle to get from one place to another to do is pastoral visiting.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Indeed, that’s because as Paul wrote, there are DIVERSITIES of tongues, not just one type.

There are three types found in scripture - a tongue understood by all, as happened on Pentecost, plus two unknown tongues - one of which is never understood by anyone but God, and one that is unknown, but is interpreted, because it’s a prophetical message to a congregation.

The cessationist Emperor has got no Scripture clothes on.

 

[Curtis]

I don't presume to know all about Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom and how they relate to Prophecy - I would just say that Word of Knowledge is someone knowing a fact supernaturally without having any human way to know it - like - where are the lost donkeys? Word of Wisdom may be like Nathan telling David "You are the man!" (who stole the sheep) - telling someone something in a way that really impresses them.

When Paul says that Tongues, (word of) Knowledge and Prophecy shall one day CEASE - did he really single out those 3 certain gifts, or just use the 3 as examples of what will come about when THE PERFECT (teleios, mature, complete) has come?

When Jesus returns, gifts of spirit won’t be needed anymore, nor will mankind’s knowledge be used or needed, so tongues, prophecy and knowledge will end.

However since all three end at the same time, yet knowledge increases in the last days, and prophecy increases in the last days, tongues are therefore also for today, especially since prophesy is an unknown tongue that is interpreted.

Thus that which is perfect has not come yet, because Jesus hasn’t returned yet.

When He does, we will see Him face to face, says the relevant scripture.

 

[Curtis]

Where did Jesus say that?

In actual fact, Biblical prosperity is having one's basic needs met - food to eat, clothes to wear, and a roof over one's head that doesn't leak, and maybe a car that one spends more time in it than under it. In African countries, prosperity for a preacher is that he might have a bicycle to get from one place to another to do is pastoral visiting.

He said it HERE:

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

 

[Sabertooth]

Except there are three kinds of tongues in scripture - Paul wrote that there are diversities of tongues.

Four,...

1. preaching,
2. prophetic (w/interpretation),
3. praising &
4. praying.

 

[Curtis]

Where did Jesus say that?

In actual fact, Biblical prosperity is having one's basic needs met - food to eat, clothes to wear, and a roof over one's head that doesn't leak, and maybe a car that one spends more time in it than under it. In African countries, prosperity for a preacher is that he might have a bicycle to get from one place to another to do is pastoral visiting.

Jesus said it here:

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

The average house is 100,000 dollars in the Midwest... what’s 100,000 times 100? 10 million dollars, I do believe... hmm...

 

[Paul Christensen]

He said it HERE:

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

There is a real difference between "giving up" and "leaving". Jesus did not mention that houses and land were sold and contributed to a church or a group. Prosperity preachers teach that if one gives money to their organisation, God will bless them with great financial returns. Jesus never promised that. What He actually said was that if a person was prepared to sacrifice his home life, working on his land for profit, for the sake of going and preaching the gospel, God will reward him because He is no debtor to anyone.

Although Luke recorded that people, including Barnabas, sold land and put the proceeds at the Apostles' feet, and that the people had all things in common, it was not required of them, nor did the Apostles teach that they should do those things in order to be part of the body of Christ. The people did these things voluntarily with no expectation of any material return from either the Apostles or the Lord.

Using the Scripture you quoted to support a doctrine that if a person sold their house or land and gave the proceeds to the church they got a hundred-fold return from the Lord, is a faulty understanding of what Jesus was saying in that Scripture.

 

[Curtis]

I might be the only one who feels this way and I am entirely open to correction, but wouldnt falling back be a rebuke like in Acts? Wouldn't you fall forward in God's presence? late 2019, i felt the presence of God and fell forward and was terrified. like it was powerful and I knew Gods hand was on me, but bad things happened to me that night so I am still confused. fell back at revivals because they pushed me back. the Bible says not to be hastey with the laying on of hands. I believe spirits transfer so be careful. There are counterfeits.

If the pastor is standing in front of a person, lays hands on them, and they fell forward, that could get painful being head butted by someone falling forward, wouldn’t you think?

 

[Curtis]

There is a real difference between "giving up" and "leaving". Jesus did not mention that houses and land were sold and contributed to a church or a group. Prosperity preachers teach that if one gives money to their organisation, God will bless them with great financial returns. Jesus never promised that. What He actually said was that if a person was prepared to sacrifice his home life, working on his land for profit, for the sake of going and preaching the gospel, God will reward him because He is no debtor to anyone.

Although Luke recorded that people, including Barnabas, sold land and put the proceeds at the Apostles' feet, and that the people had all things in common, it was not required of them, nor did the Apostles teach that they should do those things in order to be part of the body of Christ. The people did these things voluntarily with no expectation of any material return from either the Apostles or the Lord.

Using the Scripture you quoted to support a doctrine that if a person sold their house or land and gave the proceeds to the church they got a hundred-fold return from the Lord, is a faulty understanding of what Jesus was saying in that Scripture.

What I used it for was to correctly tell you that Jesus promised prosperity, so could be accused of being a prosperity preacher, just like when He said give, and it shall be given back to you, to the point of overflowing.

What I said was God promised prosperity, but prosperity preachers emphasize it too much and are out of balance in focusing on it.

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

 

[Curtis]

A confession was made by two ladies in the Redding Bethel church that they were given the job of pouring golden glitter into the ventilation system of the church to make it appear that gold dust was falling from heaven upon the people.

So, if deception took that form in that church, then one must question many other unusual and non-standard events there.

I don’t believe that story.

Why would anyone include unnecessary people in such a scheme, who could blab later, when it’s easy for the insiders to do?

Certainly it wouldn’t take two to do it, either..

 

[Curtis]

If that has happened, then the AOG is following the same path as many historical Christian movements that had speaking in tongues in their early days, but had it decline through the passage of time.

It’s called heading for apostasy, like other denominations have done.

First spiritual gifts and manifestations of HS power like physical healing, are disbelieved, followed later by disbelief of the rest of the scriptures as being the accurate word of God.

That’s why scripture warns us to in the last days, stay away from churches with a form of Godliness, that deny the Dunamis power thereof.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What I used it for was to correctly tell you that Jesus promised prosperity, so could be accused of being a prosperity preacher, just like when He said give, and it shall be given back to you, to the point of overflowing.

What I said was God promised prosperity, but prosperity preachers emphasize it too much and are out of balance in focusing on it.

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

I get what you're saying. The difference between the prosperity that the Lord promises and what Prosperity preachers say, is that the Lord's prosperity comes as a free gift of love and grace, while the Prosperity preacher requires some kind of payment first.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don’t believe that story.

Why would anyone include unnecessary people in such a scheme, who could blab later, when it’s easy for the insiders to do?

Certainly it wouldn’t take two to do it, either..

As the result of feathers falling down from the ceiling, Bill Johnson's first impression was that some birds must have got caught up in the ventilation system.

Frankly, although the story cannot be verified about the two women, although if they did confess I can't imagine that they would lie about it, I don't believe that what came down from the ceiling was not gold dust. It had to be a hoax of some kind, because the Holy Spirit doesn't work that way. When He reveals his presence, people get healed, delivered of demons, and the gifts of prophecy and tongues/interpretation come forth which brings the people to their knees under the glory of God. When the glory of God hits a meeting people are more likely to be gripped with the fear of God which makes them want to get on their faces in worship, rather than have a hallelujah hootenanny.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Curtis you have a true gift or calling to teach....I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. Very simple to understand and comprehend and is backed with scripture in proper context.
God Bless and Have a great day!