Spirit-Filled Members: Please Comment
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We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ad hominems are conversation killers, you know. If that is your intent, you need not even reply.
I should hope by now that you know that was not my intent. You are altogether too sensitive. I am not Jesus, and neither is anyone else on this forum so we do sometimes fail to say things as nicely as we might. If you are going to stop the conversation every time it seems to you that some one pointed a finger at you, you are soon going to run out of people with whom to converse.
We both already know that we disagree on some things, but it is not uncommon for me to speak with those who disagree with me. Just to be on a forum like does require a tougher skin than that. I do promise to try not to unnecessarily break open your skin.
I'll say still that God can give personal messages to us from others, and we recognize them as they come, by the Holy Spirit.
I'll heartily agree that prophecy will not contradict Scripture, and that's our first test for prophecy, that it not contradict. So much does, we can know right away it's not of God.
But what when we don't know the depth of the passage we read? This is why I desire that I might prophesy, that God would speak (write) through me, even now to you, may it be, so that you may truly be edified.
No one knows your heart, your mind, as does your God, Who sees what is secret, Who sees you. I can encourage you best I can, give understanding to the Word best I can, but my strongest desire in these moments is that it be from the Holy Spirit.
Much love!
Yes God can give personal messages to us even directly through our Mediator. But what I was referring to is that those messages, whether directly or indirectly will not only not contradict Scripture, but will add no new revelation to Scripture, which is what happened when the prophets of old spoke as well as Jesus Christ.
These prophecies in Church come no where close to that calibre of authority, and must all be tested against Scripture, even by some individual who claims to be God's man of light and power...
Revelation 16:13 (KJV) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 (KJV) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
I have found something profound here, and am glad I came here.
I have found the willingness of members on here willing to help someone in need, like myself, without these members not even knowing me, they reached out to me, the love I felt from that is overwhelming.
How Christian is that?
Truth and doctrine enjoyed and the cause of encouragement: this is part of the message of Ephesians 4, right?
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Hi HIH,
Certainly prophets operate in a more personal prophetic role than Bible Prophecy. And so GOD fills every need according to HIS provisions. My only comment is that if an individual knew what the future was for the world and the church, each of us might "plow" with a greater sense of urgency, and be drawn closer to our LORD and Saviour, versus waiting for a happenstance.
Thanks,
Bobby Jo
@Heart2Soul Re. your comment about God the Father, Romans 8 speaks about those who try 'Abba, Father', by the Spirit of Christ in them, indwelling since the new birth. (It's a wonderful chapter!)
Confucius say: Be interesting and may you have interesting times.
GreenCanada
New Member
Here's a paper I wrote last year clarifying the argument between cessationism and continuationism. Hope it helps! Enjoy! Second half in following post!
With over 279 million pentecostals and 305 million charismatics in the world, the issue of how the Holy Spirit works has become front and center in recent years (Pew Research Center). But why is there so much confusion about gifts of the Holy Spirit and who is right in the issue, cessationists or continuationists? An informed decision requires a dive into the Scriptures to understand the issue, and to not rely on assumptions, but to rely on sound doctrine. Starting with the support for continuationism, the key verses are 1 Cor 14:1, 1 Cor 14:39, 1 Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11-13, 1 Cor 12:27-31, Rom 12:6-8 and Joel 2:28-29. First of all 1 Corinthians 14:1 talks about desiring prophecy and says “[f]ollow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 talks about different kinds of gifts, including prophecy, miraculous powers, speaking in tongues etc, and the passage says:
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Meanwhile, Ephesians 4 mentions the commission by Christ for prophets to “equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up…” (Eph 4:11). The passage says:
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Romans also talks about the gifts of the Spirit, saying in 12:6-8:
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Not only is the mention of the Holy Spirit and prophecy in the New Testament but the Old Testament also refers to continuationism in Joel, which says:
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Therefore, it seems that prophecy and signs are a gift given by the Holy Spirit to be used in the church, that the greater gifts should be desired, and that God promised this gift of prophecy even in the Old Testament.
However, cessationism is only vaguely suggested once in the Bible, which is in 1 Cor 13:8, saying “[l]ove never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” This is an indirect suggestion that prophecies and tongues will cease, meaning there will be an end to these spiritual gifts but it never mentions when those gifts will end. Rather, cessationism is based on theoretical beliefs and what people claim to be an understanding of how these gifts have ended. One such cessationists argument is that because the Bible is finished, no more prophecy is needed as God reveals everything in his word. This is problematic as we are told that the Spirit gives gifts of prophecy and it is likely that the early church also had prophets, so why weren’t their prophecies written in the Bible? If prophecy is only required for the purpose of revealing God’s word, why wasn’t any prophecy from the early church written down (other than some prophecies like Agabus (Acts 11:28)). A second argument that cessationists make is that prophecies, tongues, miracles and healings were all characteristics of the early church but have ceased because Christians no longer need signs to believe as they have God’s word. While this argument carries more weight than the first as it is true that sign gifts require less faith to believe as it is believing by sight and not by faith—making signs less desirable than using God’s word, there are verses that suggest sign gifts should still be used in a proper manner. 1 Corinthians 2:4 mentions that Paul wants the Corinthians to rest their faith on the demonstrations of the Spirit’s power rather on wise and persuasive words. Furthermore, 1 Cor 14:39 says “[t]herefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” Therefore, the cessationist arguments are inconclusive, not supported by Scripture, and are based merely on speculation.
What the Bible does say is how spiritual gifts should be used or not used and this is important when considering the application of continuationism. 1 Corinthians 13:2 says “f I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” This means that prophecy without love is nothing, even if the prophecy is true, because we are to love the LORD our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength (Mk 12:30) and this must be true of prophecy as well. Moreover, prophecy can be known as a gift to fathom all mysteries and all knowledge (1 Cor 13:2) and knowledge is prone to puff up instead of building up (1 Cor 8:1-8). The full passage of 1 Cor 8:1-8 says:
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God.
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
With over 279 million pentecostals and 305 million charismatics in the world, the issue of how the Holy Spirit works has become front and center in recent years (Pew Research Center). But why is there so much confusion about gifts of the Holy Spirit and who is right in the issue, cessationists or continuationists? An informed decision requires a dive into the Scriptures to understand the issue, and to not rely on assumptions, but to rely on sound doctrine. Starting with the support for continuationism, the key verses are 1 Cor 14:1, 1 Cor 14:39, 1 Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11-13, 1 Cor 12:27-31, Rom 12:6-8 and Joel 2:28-29. First of all 1 Corinthians 14:1 talks about desiring prophecy and says “[f]ollow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 talks about different kinds of gifts, including prophecy, miraculous powers, speaking in tongues etc, and the passage says:
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Meanwhile, Ephesians 4 mentions the commission by Christ for prophets to “equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up…” (Eph 4:11). The passage says:
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Romans also talks about the gifts of the Spirit, saying in 12:6-8:
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Not only is the mention of the Holy Spirit and prophecy in the New Testament but the Old Testament also refers to continuationism in Joel, which says:
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Therefore, it seems that prophecy and signs are a gift given by the Holy Spirit to be used in the church, that the greater gifts should be desired, and that God promised this gift of prophecy even in the Old Testament.
However, cessationism is only vaguely suggested once in the Bible, which is in 1 Cor 13:8, saying “[l]ove never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” This is an indirect suggestion that prophecies and tongues will cease, meaning there will be an end to these spiritual gifts but it never mentions when those gifts will end. Rather, cessationism is based on theoretical beliefs and what people claim to be an understanding of how these gifts have ended. One such cessationists argument is that because the Bible is finished, no more prophecy is needed as God reveals everything in his word. This is problematic as we are told that the Spirit gives gifts of prophecy and it is likely that the early church also had prophets, so why weren’t their prophecies written in the Bible? If prophecy is only required for the purpose of revealing God’s word, why wasn’t any prophecy from the early church written down (other than some prophecies like Agabus (Acts 11:28)). A second argument that cessationists make is that prophecies, tongues, miracles and healings were all characteristics of the early church but have ceased because Christians no longer need signs to believe as they have God’s word. While this argument carries more weight than the first as it is true that sign gifts require less faith to believe as it is believing by sight and not by faith—making signs less desirable than using God’s word, there are verses that suggest sign gifts should still be used in a proper manner. 1 Corinthians 2:4 mentions that Paul wants the Corinthians to rest their faith on the demonstrations of the Spirit’s power rather on wise and persuasive words. Furthermore, 1 Cor 14:39 says “[t]herefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” Therefore, the cessationist arguments are inconclusive, not supported by Scripture, and are based merely on speculation.
What the Bible does say is how spiritual gifts should be used or not used and this is important when considering the application of continuationism. 1 Corinthians 13:2 says “f I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” This means that prophecy without love is nothing, even if the prophecy is true, because we are to love the LORD our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength (Mk 12:30) and this must be true of prophecy as well. Moreover, prophecy can be known as a gift to fathom all mysteries and all knowledge (1 Cor 13:2) and knowledge is prone to puff up instead of building up (1 Cor 8:1-8). The full passage of 1 Cor 8:1-8 says:
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God.
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
GreenCanada
New Member
Part 2
So the passage in 1 Corinthians 8 states that the issue at hand (food) does not bring people near to God, which begs the question: how does prophecy, gifts of healing, signs and miracles bring us near to God? Heb 10:22 says “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” This is critical as it tells us how to draw near to God, with a sincere heart and with full assurance that faith brings. Now if prophecy, signs and healings are to draw us near to God—in other words, if they are signs of strong faith and a closeness to God, they should be done with a sincere heart and with full assurance. There in lies the problem with most prophecies, acts of miracles, or healings—the Christians professing to have these gifts may not have one hundred percent full assurance in their “success rate,” and they must have a sincere heart avoiding pitfalls like pride, jealousy and desperation for assurance, which can divide one’s heart. Therefore, while the continuationism argument is strongly supported by parts of the Bible, in many cases it may be an issue where it is permissible but is not the most beneficial ministry in the present age (1 Cor 10:23). At the very least, those believing that they have prophetic, tongues, miraculous or healing gifts need to be fully confident and sincere before using their gifts. There are also several reasons why continuationism is not constructive in the current church age, and these are: disorderly conduct, pride, overemphasis on benefits of tongues, jealousy and lack of assurance.
Disorderly conduct is a problem because God is a God of order, not disorder, and therefore, he desires his church to be orderly in conduct as well. In regards to order 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 says:
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
Hence, if there is no peace in service because people are too busy prophesying or speaking in tongues and if there is disorder, this is clearly not what God wants for his church.
The second problem is pride, which is described in Proverbs 16:18, saying “[p]ride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.” Pride is also condemned in Romans 12:16, saying “[l]ive in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.” Therefore, if charismatic or Pentecostal churches foster an environment of pride because people with greater spiritual gifts are uplifted more than others, then again it is going against the Scriptures. If continuationism is to exist, it must exist without pride, something that is extremely difficult because of the effect of having power over others.
Thirdly, there is an overemphasis on the gift of tongues, and Paul makes it abundantly clear that he would rather speak five intelligent words to instruct than a thousand words in tongues (1 Cor 14:19). Overemphasis on the gift of tongues and neglecting the importance of Biblical teaching is wrong in the church.
Fourthly, jealousy is a problem that may occur when some Christians are given “spotlight” gifts like prophecy, healing, or miracles. These gifts are referred to as “spotlight” gifts because they put Christians in the spotlight and may give the suggestion that people with more noticeable gifts are more important than those with lesser gifts. While the Bible does say to eagerly desire the greater gifts, there is the strong temptation to develop jealousy, which can ruin the functionality of the body of Christ because each part is required to do its job for not everyone can be a prophet, a speaker of tongues, or healer (1 Cor 12:15-26). The lesser parts can not say they do not belong to the body because they are not significant enough (1 Cor 12:15), and therefore, if the continuationism movement fosters an environment of exclusion or jealousy, this is also wrong according to the Bible.
Lastly, the continuationism movement needs more adherence to the Scripture because they create Christians that lack assurance if they don’t have the “greater” gifts of prophecy, tongues, miracles, or healings. Heb 11:1 says “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see,” and this means that to have faith, Christians must have full assurance and full confidence in their hope for salvation. If there is no confidence (i.e. due to a lack of gifts), then there is no faith according to Hebrews 11:1. Furthermore, anything that does not come from faith (assurance or confidence in hope) such as doubt, is sin, as Rom 14:23 says “but whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” While this passage is talking about doubts when eating meat sacrificed to idols, the second part of the verse is clear, anything not from faith is sin. Luke 9:62 says “Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”” Therefore, doubting your salvation and hope in Christ is not from faith and is sin, because it shows a lack of belief or a lack of faith (Luke 18:8) but this should be differentiated from thinking of your faith with sober judgement (Rom 12:3) and from testing your faith (2 Cor 13:5).
Finally, having gone over some of the problems of the continuationism movement, there is one last concept that makes sign gifts rare in the present-day church. God is portrayed in the Bible as one who hides himself and this is shown in Isaiah 45:15, which states “[t]ruly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.” This makes sense as the verse just covered mentions that faith is assurance in what we do not see—if God is seen, there is no need for faith. Therefore, acts of miracles, signs, healings, prophecy and tongues may all be uncommon in the present-day church because they reveal God in a way that removes people’s need for faith in him, and faith is something God desires for those who believe. Furthermore, faith is required for miracles or signs to happen, as Jesus only performed miracles when the people had faith (Matt 13:58). Note that the Israelites saw God revealed to them through all the miracles and wonders of the Old Testament, he did not make them seek him in vain (Is 45:19), and yet they still rebelled all the more. Likewise, even if someone rises from the dead (a miracle or wonder), if they did not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe (Luke 16:31).
So the argument for cessationism is based mainly on theological speculation, but continuationism, while strongly supported, requires much care and discernment to be used effectively for God’s kingdom. If sign gifts can not be used properly, they shouldn’t be used at all, as they would not be of benefit to anyone or to the church. To be used effectively, prophecy, tongues, healing and miracles need to be used with full assurance, a sincere heart, in a loving manner and for the purpose of building up the church. If these gifts are used by Christians who don’t have these spiritual gifts, it will only create confusion, doubt and disappointment, whereas if these gifts are used properly, they can be a strong encouragement to the church and will help build it up. Furthermore, because God is a God that hides himself so that his children can have faith in him, recording or filming evidence of gifts will result in people “believing” but only by sight (raising the question if they truly have faith), which is contrary to the instruction to live by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7). Therefore, if the church is to be guided by the “wind” or the Holy Spirit it is to make use of the gifts of the Spirit God has given Christians, but in an orderly way that honours and glorifies God, while remembering the necessity of sound teaching and keeping everything in balance and order.
So the passage in 1 Corinthians 8 states that the issue at hand (food) does not bring people near to God, which begs the question: how does prophecy, gifts of healing, signs and miracles bring us near to God? Heb 10:22 says “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” This is critical as it tells us how to draw near to God, with a sincere heart and with full assurance that faith brings. Now if prophecy, signs and healings are to draw us near to God—in other words, if they are signs of strong faith and a closeness to God, they should be done with a sincere heart and with full assurance. There in lies the problem with most prophecies, acts of miracles, or healings—the Christians professing to have these gifts may not have one hundred percent full assurance in their “success rate,” and they must have a sincere heart avoiding pitfalls like pride, jealousy and desperation for assurance, which can divide one’s heart. Therefore, while the continuationism argument is strongly supported by parts of the Bible, in many cases it may be an issue where it is permissible but is not the most beneficial ministry in the present age (1 Cor 10:23). At the very least, those believing that they have prophetic, tongues, miraculous or healing gifts need to be fully confident and sincere before using their gifts. There are also several reasons why continuationism is not constructive in the current church age, and these are: disorderly conduct, pride, overemphasis on benefits of tongues, jealousy and lack of assurance.
Disorderly conduct is a problem because God is a God of order, not disorder, and therefore, he desires his church to be orderly in conduct as well. In regards to order 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 says:
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
Hence, if there is no peace in service because people are too busy prophesying or speaking in tongues and if there is disorder, this is clearly not what God wants for his church.
The second problem is pride, which is described in Proverbs 16:18, saying “[p]ride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.” Pride is also condemned in Romans 12:16, saying “[l]ive in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.” Therefore, if charismatic or Pentecostal churches foster an environment of pride because people with greater spiritual gifts are uplifted more than others, then again it is going against the Scriptures. If continuationism is to exist, it must exist without pride, something that is extremely difficult because of the effect of having power over others.
Thirdly, there is an overemphasis on the gift of tongues, and Paul makes it abundantly clear that he would rather speak five intelligent words to instruct than a thousand words in tongues (1 Cor 14:19). Overemphasis on the gift of tongues and neglecting the importance of Biblical teaching is wrong in the church.
Fourthly, jealousy is a problem that may occur when some Christians are given “spotlight” gifts like prophecy, healing, or miracles. These gifts are referred to as “spotlight” gifts because they put Christians in the spotlight and may give the suggestion that people with more noticeable gifts are more important than those with lesser gifts. While the Bible does say to eagerly desire the greater gifts, there is the strong temptation to develop jealousy, which can ruin the functionality of the body of Christ because each part is required to do its job for not everyone can be a prophet, a speaker of tongues, or healer (1 Cor 12:15-26). The lesser parts can not say they do not belong to the body because they are not significant enough (1 Cor 12:15), and therefore, if the continuationism movement fosters an environment of exclusion or jealousy, this is also wrong according to the Bible.
Lastly, the continuationism movement needs more adherence to the Scripture because they create Christians that lack assurance if they don’t have the “greater” gifts of prophecy, tongues, miracles, or healings. Heb 11:1 says “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see,” and this means that to have faith, Christians must have full assurance and full confidence in their hope for salvation. If there is no confidence (i.e. due to a lack of gifts), then there is no faith according to Hebrews 11:1. Furthermore, anything that does not come from faith (assurance or confidence in hope) such as doubt, is sin, as Rom 14:23 says “but whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” While this passage is talking about doubts when eating meat sacrificed to idols, the second part of the verse is clear, anything not from faith is sin. Luke 9:62 says “Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”” Therefore, doubting your salvation and hope in Christ is not from faith and is sin, because it shows a lack of belief or a lack of faith (Luke 18:8) but this should be differentiated from thinking of your faith with sober judgement (Rom 12:3) and from testing your faith (2 Cor 13:5).
Finally, having gone over some of the problems of the continuationism movement, there is one last concept that makes sign gifts rare in the present-day church. God is portrayed in the Bible as one who hides himself and this is shown in Isaiah 45:15, which states “[t]ruly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.” This makes sense as the verse just covered mentions that faith is assurance in what we do not see—if God is seen, there is no need for faith. Therefore, acts of miracles, signs, healings, prophecy and tongues may all be uncommon in the present-day church because they reveal God in a way that removes people’s need for faith in him, and faith is something God desires for those who believe. Furthermore, faith is required for miracles or signs to happen, as Jesus only performed miracles when the people had faith (Matt 13:58). Note that the Israelites saw God revealed to them through all the miracles and wonders of the Old Testament, he did not make them seek him in vain (Is 45:19), and yet they still rebelled all the more. Likewise, even if someone rises from the dead (a miracle or wonder), if they did not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe (Luke 16:31).
So the argument for cessationism is based mainly on theological speculation, but continuationism, while strongly supported, requires much care and discernment to be used effectively for God’s kingdom. If sign gifts can not be used properly, they shouldn’t be used at all, as they would not be of benefit to anyone or to the church. To be used effectively, prophecy, tongues, healing and miracles need to be used with full assurance, a sincere heart, in a loving manner and for the purpose of building up the church. If these gifts are used by Christians who don’t have these spiritual gifts, it will only create confusion, doubt and disappointment, whereas if these gifts are used properly, they can be a strong encouragement to the church and will help build it up. Furthermore, because God is a God that hides himself so that his children can have faith in him, recording or filming evidence of gifts will result in people “believing” but only by sight (raising the question if they truly have faith), which is contrary to the instruction to live by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7). Therefore, if the church is to be guided by the “wind” or the Holy Spirit it is to make use of the gifts of the Spirit God has given Christians, but in an orderly way that honours and glorifies God, while remembering the necessity of sound teaching and keeping everything in balance and order.
I believe there are still prophets and apostle's in the Church today. But as others have said they are found in the local church having and exercising those gifts. There are no more Old Testament prophets. But there are still those who have the gift of being a prophet.
As with any other gift of the Holy Spirit they are not self-appointed. It is from the Holy Spirit. And as with any other gift, those in the local assembly recognize it and give their voice of approval.
As to their message, it will entail specifically what is going on with the local assembly they are part of. It is not, as Old Testament prophets, to be added to Scripture. It is pertinent to the day to day lives of that assembly.
Stranger
Ok, these are fallible as sometimes their forth telling does not come true or is so general there is no way to tell and often they contradict each other, so what good is that?
No, I am mainly referring to the NAR type groups who are claiming some of themselves as Apostles and/or Prophets using verses like...
1 Corinthians 12:28 NASB
[28] And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Ephesians 4:11 NASB
[11] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
I don't see this as a cessationist/non-cessationist issue, but rather "has further revelation ceased?' or do we have those with the authority to give us new revelation. Otherwise I would easily side with the non-cessationists.
Just saw this, only wanted to say, my point was simply to encourage you to stay on point, and not deflect the conversation onto something else, in this case, a logical fallacy, personal attack, call it what you want.
When you begin to speak of the motives and intents of my heart, of the thoughts in my mind, you cease addressing the topic, and introduce a new topic, in this case, that I am somehow deficient.
It's not "altogether too sensitive" to be able to notice these sorts of things. In fact, they disappoint me, because I generally click open an alert to see who is going to advance the discussion, what will they say? Oh.
When this becomes a pattern, it's not unlike me to point to these things. I have a desire to bring hidden things into the light, so that they can be dispatched with.
It's not overly sensitive to desire better things of those who proclaim Christ.
Without this sort of personal stuff, that's when we can really begin to converse.
As has been said before, the forum is not "policed", therefore, we must police ourselves, and I don't mean as a group. Each must be their own policeman. The tongue is most difficult to control.
I love you, and that's why I write this way, I'm simply looking for what I know we can do. And I don't know that we'll ever agree on the teachings, but if we are agreed on Jesus Christ, then what we are to do is walk together in love.
Just as an aside, have you every stopped to compare the amount of content on some threads, and in some posts, that solely addresses the flaws in the other party, compared to that which addresses whatever topic is being discussed? Sometimes it can get difficult to find real content.
So, sometimes I think this kind of metacommunication is needful.
Much love!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
To All,
All are basically good posts, except for one thing, -- the HIRELING. We are supposed to bring the music, the lesson, the tongue, the interpretation, and the prophecy. The only thing the HIRELING brings is a stupid, lazy, ignorant, weak, and ineffective church.
So we can parse how the church is supposed to operate all day long, but if we don't fix the foundation of the church as being comprised of ardent Christians, who cares? The HIRELING will do it.
What a mess,
Bobby Jo
All are basically good posts, except for one thing, -- the HIRELING. We are supposed to bring the music, the lesson, the tongue, the interpretation, and the prophecy. The only thing the HIRELING brings is a stupid, lazy, ignorant, weak, and ineffective church.
So we can parse how the church is supposed to operate all day long, but if we don't fix the foundation of the church as being comprised of ardent Christians, who cares? The HIRELING will do it.
What a mess,
Bobby Jo
Collin Feener
Active Member
This is how the Lord taught me to prophesy.
First look at Peter as an example, he went out with Jesus and cast to the right side and had a great catch of fish. Then see Peter in his church and this world as the great sea and the word , is the net and he becomes the great fisher of men and the great catch, ( the Romans. See him by the fire with the romans , God's ministers are ministers of fire, see them fight over his robes, God's word was his Robe. See how Jesus told Peter, behind me Satan, and see how the Church split later in time as time went in his walk with Jesus.
You can see how all the disciples became churchs and what is written about them is the same as what happens to the churchs. The interpretation of John,s revelation are the prophecy for the church and if you look carfully you can see John got his revelations from the Life of Jesus in the flesh and the same happens to his body, the church.
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