The Beast Nature

[veteran]

God's Word uses the word 'beast' as an analogy for the wicked at times. It is also used as a symbol for the kingdoms of the wicked, such as in the Book of Daniel and our Lord's Book of Revelation. In the NT Books of Jude and 2 Peter 2 the wicked are compared to "brute beasts". In 1 Corinthians 15:32, Apostle Paul refers to the idolaters of Ephesus he battled with as beasts (Acts 19). The Devil himself is described as a serpent creeping lowly in the dust per Genesis 3. In the parable of the sower of Matthew 13, Jesus compares fowls eating up the seed sown on the wayside to the "wicked one" (Satan) coming to take The Word out of their hearts because they don't understand. With the king of Babylon when God punished him for his godly claims, he was assigned to live as a wild beast among the beasts of the field, given a beast's heart (Dan.4:15-16). In Psalms 73 one who comes to God's Truth learns how he before had dwelt in ignorance as the wicked and was as a beast in God's eyes. In Ezekiel 34:8, God compares His people as a flock of sheep becoming meat for every beast of the field because they had no shepherd, using the beast idea to apply to the wicked. In Ezekiel 39:17, God refers to the nations as feathered fowls and beasts of the field when they attempt to prey upon His Israel as He commits the wicked to His great Wrath to come.

By the time we get to the study of our Lord's Book of Revelation, we should have an understanding of 'how' our LORD applies that "beast" symbol to the wicked and to the wicked one (Satan), and to the kingdoms of the wicked.

From 2 Peter 2 we should understand how that "beast" symbol is used to represent the nature of the wicked as "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed" (2 Pet.2:12). In Jude 1 the wicked are compared to "brute beasts" and having gone "the way of Cain" (Jude 1:10-11).

That brings us to the "mark of the beast", which is the 'mark' God put upon Cain in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 4, because Cain murdered his brother Abel, God cast Cain out to be a vagabond and fugative from the face of the earth, and cursed the ground to Cain in farming; Cain then complained that every man that found him would want to kill him. So God put a mark upon Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. That mark was for Cain's protection.

That mark upon Cain presents Cain's later attributes of protection, or advantage. The land would not be fruitful for him, so he had to resort to other ways to survive. We see in Gen.4 he built the first city, and his offspring were dwellers in tents over cattle, musicians, workers in brass and iron, and the acts of murder and unforgiveness would continue with them, i.e., the 'brute beast' nature, "the way of Cain". In John 8 our Lord Jesus would rebuke the murderers of the scribes and Pharisees who wanted to kill Him, saying their real father was a murderer from the beginning, poiting to the way of Cain.

In Jeremiah 24, the brute beast nature way of Cain is compared to the evil basket of figs which God showed him. Early in Israel's history, leftovers of the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to destroy crept in among Israel's stay, and dwelt among them, some of them becoming scribes later at Jabez (1 Chronicles 2:55). They became temple servants, the bondservants of 1 Kings 9:19-22, and the Nethinims of Ezra and Nehemiah's days (Ezra 2:58). King David and Solomon would enlist help from king Hiram of Tyre of his servants gifted in the arts of stone and metal craft work, and they would help build the city of David and the first temple of Solomon's day (2 Sam.5:11; 1 Kings 5). In Luke 16:8, our Lord Jesus would say the children of this world in their generation are wiser than the children of light, pointing to the mark of protection God had placed upon the wicked children of this world associated with the mark He gave Cain. In Matthew 23:2, our Lord Jesus revealed at His first coming those very brute beasts of the Kenite scribes and Pharisees had taken over the seat of Moses, the seat of God's Law. Per the Jewish historian Josephus, is shown how those of Idumea (Esau) had taken over the position of kings over Judea with the Herods, and also Idumeans taking over the office of chief priest among God's people of Israel. Because of this creeping in among Israel of those with the brute beast nature, our Lord Jesus would warn His disciples to beware of the leaven doctrines of Herod and of the Pharisees (Mark 8:15; and the Sadduccees - Matt.16:11; and the scribes - Luke 20:46).

In Daniel 7 God showed him certain animals representing 'beast' kingdoms of the children of this world with their kings. In Revelation 13:1-2 our Lord Jesus gives a repeat of those beast animals as a symbol for the final beast kingdom that comes up out of the sea of peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues (per His Rev.17:15 explanation). Back in Daniel 2 is revealed how all the beast kingdoms of history will be joined into one complete system over all nations and peoples in the end when Christ returns to strike it upon its feet, and the whole statue image of five pieces together comes tumbling down. That is the world beast kingdom our Lord revealed in Revelation 13:1, even linking the beast kingdom symbols of Daniel 7 to it in Revelation 13:2. That reveals no single nation can be singled out with that world beast working. The brute beasts working to build it today exist in all nations, and on all seven continents of the earth.

But in Revelation 13:11, John is shown "another beast", a second beast, an entity, a he; and he ascends up out of the earth (bottomless pit link with the angel of the bottomless pit of Revelation 9:11). We're told he will appear with two horns like a lamb (like Christ), but will speak as a dragon. The previous Revelation 12 chapter revealed that "dragon" as another title for the Devil, Satan himself, that old serpent of Genesis in God's Garden. That "dragon" represents the ultimate "brute beast" nature, the ultimate way of Cain, the original "man of sin" and "son of perdition", the Devil himself. In Revelation 13:12 we are told that second beast, or dragon, will execute all the power of the first beast mentioned in Revelation 13:1; and that he will deceive the whole world byy the miracles he was given power to do, and will setup an image to the beast, and cause the deceived to receive the mark of the beast, lest one be killed for refusing it.

What that mark of the beast is about is the receiving of the mark of the Devil and his brute beast nature. It is about turning away from GOD and instead making Satan your god, bowing to him in false worship, accepting the coming one world beast kingdom he will reign over in place of GOD's True Kingdom which Christ will bring when He comes to defeat that beast kingdom, smiting it upon its feet of ten toes.

 

[Alethos]

In the parable of the sower of Matthew 13, Jesus compares fowls eating up the seed sown on the wayside to the "wicked one" (Satan) coming to take The Word out of their hearts because they don't understand.

Veteran,

How does the devil remove truth from a person? What exactly are his devices? Where are we told or warned about his methods? And what do “fowls” represent in the Bible?

You are suggesting the fowls are supernatural demonic beings removing knowledge from people without them knowing! Do you have quotes that show he is able to transform himself into a serpent, fowls and a lion? He likes animals doesn’t he?

You say the seed or Word is taken out of them because they don’t understand? So you lead us to the mind of the person in mention. But how does your devil remove the message from the persons mind?

The message is the seed, which is the Word! 1 Pe 1:23; Isa 55:10,11 and so on... The evil one or satan Mar 4:15, the "devil" Luke 8:12 you say is a demonic being – fallen angel and so on...

Matt 13:20 By contrast we have the stony ground or rocky places: Which the word has aroused these people’s emotions for a short time, but their minds never really changed. Again, no mention of the supernatural being. But rather the stones are fleshly lusts which they have failed to remove (like stones) from their lives.

Matt 13:22 By contrast the next fruitless group of believer are fruitless not because of "something" snatching the word from them, but because of the deceitfulness of wealth! Or riches or "False glamour of riches" NEB. This again leads us to fleshly desires.

Why is this type of soil not affected by your supernatural beings? In this type of soil, thorns of fleshly lusts must be rooted out, and constantly fought against. But in the hard ground (strong nature) your fowls (devil – false accuser) takes the Word away?

Every ground represents the human nature and the level of response to God’s Word!

It appears to me your evil one is the hard ground & fowls, which is so hard and devouring of the word of God, that it cannot penetrate because their eyes are closed to the message. The Lesson: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires" (Gal 5:24). But those who like Mark 4:12 suggest the ground or earth represents their flesh being so strong it cannot accept those things from above..

Again by contrast the fruitful ground is the one which is tilled and keep open, they have ears to hear the message and respond accordingly.

Matt 13:23 By now you can probably see the succession of lessons: hear, accept (understand), and then bear fruit.

In this soil the finest example is left until last because he produces a crop: "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop" (Luke 8:15). It’s like the farmer in James 5:7 "See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains"

This soil (or flesh) where the word is sown bears excellent, good, and fair yields.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

In Genesis 4, because Cain murdered his brother Abel, God cast Cain out to be a vagabond and fugative from the face of the earth, and cursed the ground to Cain in farming; Cain then complained that every man that found him would want to kill him. So God put a mark upon Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. That mark was for Cain's protection.

That mark upon Cain presents Cain's later attributes of protection, or advantage. The land would not be fruitful for him, so he had to resort to other ways to survive. We see in Gen.4 he built the first city, and his offspring were dwellers in tents over cattle, musicians, workers in brass and iron, and the acts of murder and unforgiveness would continue with them, i.e., the 'brute beast' nature, "the way of Cain". In John 8 our Lord Jesus would rebuke the murderers of the scribes and Pharisees who wanted to kill Him, saying their real father was a murderer from the beginning, poiting to the way of Cain.

As you rightly say...Cain is the first human liar and well as the first murderer John 8:44. If you read the text with care you will see he lured his brother deceiving him to go out into the field. It is their Cain killed his brother after "fellowship" with God was over. This account highlights the continuing conflict or enmity between the seed of the serpent (Rom 8:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and so on) and the seed of the woman: Mat 23:35; Jud 1:11; Heb 12:24; 1Jo 3:12 and so on...

God in his mercy appointed a sign upon him, which would easily distinguishable him by appearance. I wonder if God intended Cain to stay close to Eden which was like a city of refuge (Josh 20), where Cain would be safe from the avenger of blood. Though we have no time line to go by, after a while, Cain became restless and leaves to build his own city, as you state above.

Veteran, in the context of Cains mark do you think it was a curse or a blessing, or both?

How does your answer correspond with the mark of the beast in Rev 13?

I personally believe it was a curse and a blessing; a curse in that all would know his sin “a murderer”! A blessing that his fellowmen wouldn’t be able kill him, as God sees all. Within the mark it appears God provided Cain an opportunity to acknowledge his wrong, to plead for mercy, and to wipe out his reputation as a murderer. How tragic that he chose not to!

Another point in mention is the fact that Cain went from the Lord becoming self reliant and built a city. Showing the same manner of behaviour as in the sacrifice he in effect builds his own temple or sanctuary in his own city.

The first apostate church is formed out of lies and murder.

And where was his church?

Land of Nod: It’s only mention once in the Bible and means wandering or exile from the word to flee or disappear.

Alethos

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

How does the devil remove truth from a person? What exactly are his devices? Where are we told or warned about his methods? And what do “fowls” represent in the Bible?

You are suggesting the fowls are supernatural demonic beings removing knowledge from people without them knowing! Do you have quotes that show he is able to transform himself into a serpent, fowls and a lion? He likes animals doesn’t he?

You say the seed or Word is taken out of them because they don’t understand? So you lead us to the mind of the person in mention. But how does your devil remove the message from the persons mind?

First of all, he is not 'my' devil. You shouldn't go around throwing out slur references like that which you know your going to get called down for. All it does is waste time.

First try reading Christ's parable of the sower, which I referenced. Don't miss Christ's later explanation of the meaning of that parable later in that same chapter.

The message is the seed, which is the Word

! 1 Pe 1:23; Isa 55:10,11 and so on... The evil one or satan Mar 4:15, the "devil" Luke 8:12 you say is a demonic being – fallen angel and so on...

Matt 13:20 By contrast we have the stony ground or rocky places: Which the word has aroused these people’s emotions for a short time, but their minds never really changed. Again, no mention of the supernatural being. But rather the stones are fleshly lusts which they have failed to remove (like stones) from their lives.

Matt 13:22 By contrast the next fruitless group of believer are fruitless not because of "something" snatching the word from them, but because of the deceitfulness of wealth! Or riches or "False glamour of riches" NEB. This again leads us to fleshly desires.

Why is this type of soil not affected by your supernatural beings? In this type of soil, thorns of fleshly lusts must be rooted out, and constantly fought against. But in the hard ground (strong nature) your fowls (devil – false accuser) takes the Word away?

Every ground represents the human nature and the level of response to God’s Word!

It appears to me your evil one is the hard ground & fowls, which is so hard and devouring of the word of God, that it cannot penetrate because their eyes are closed to the message. The Lesson: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires" (Gal 5:24). But those who like Mark 4:12 suggest the ground or earth represents their flesh being so strong it cannot accept those things from above..

Again by contrast the fruitful ground is the one which is tilled and keep open, they have ears to hear the message and respond accordingly.

Once again, try actually reading the parts of the parable of the sower Christ gave that you left out here, along with His explanation.

Matt 13:23 By now you can probably see the succession of lessons: hear, accept (understand), and then bear fruit.

In this soil the finest example is left until last because he produces a crop: "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop" (Luke 8:15). It’s like the farmer in James 5:7 "See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains"

This soil (or flesh) where the word is sown bears excellent, good, and fair yields.

Alethos

That's partially what it's about, but not all of it. Try reading Christ's definition of the fowl symbol He used in that same chapter. He told you who it represented. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

 

[Alethos]

First of all, he is not 'my' devil. You shouldn't go around throwing out slur references like that which you know your going to get called down for. All it does is waste time.

First try reading Christ's parable of the sower, which I referenced. Don't miss Christ's later explanation of the meaning of that parable later in that same chapter.




[/size]Once again, try actually reading the parts of the parable of the sower Christ gave that you left out here, along with His explanation.




That's partially what it's about, but not all of it. Try reading Christ's definition of the fowl symbol He used in that same chapter. He told you who it represented. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

"Hear then the parable of the sower: [sup]19[/sup]When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one (strong fleshly nature) comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart (mind). This is what was sown along the path.

So this a supernatural monster which enters people’s minds and robs them of the Gospel?

The question you should ask is WHY ARE THEY NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL?

Because their carnal minds will not allow them to hear...Jesus teaches this in John 8:43 speaking of the Pharisees.

Alethos

 

[veteran]

As you rightly say...Cain is the first human liar and well as the first murderer John 8:44. If you read the text with care you will see he lured his brother deceiving him to go out into the field. It is their Cain killed his brother after "fellowship" with God was over. This account highlights the continuing conflict or enmity between the seed of the serpent (Rom 8:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and so on) and the seed of the woman: Mat 23:35; Jud 1:11; Heb 12:24; 1Jo 3:12 and so on...

God in his mercy appointed a sign upon him, which would easily distinguishable him by appearance. I wonder if God intended Cain to stay close to Eden which was like a city of refuge (Josh 20), where Cain would be safe from the avenger of blood. Though we have no time line to go by, after a while, Cain became restless and leaves to build his own city, as you state above.

Veteran, in the context of Cains mark do you think it was a curse or a blessing, or both?

It was a curse, but a mode of protection for Cain. God placed the mark upon Cain "lest anyone finding him should kill him." (Gen.4:15) That mark may not have anything to do with a visible outward sign, but more of a group of attributes to aid his survival and the beast nature working.

Gen.4:16 declares Cain left the presence of The LORD and went east of Eden, to the land of Nod, and then built the first city. That account parallels the ancient Sumerian account of Sargon I, who was a Semite that appeared among them, built their first city, taught them agriculture and science, and started the first idol worship of Bel (dragon).

If it were a blessing, it would align with God's Plan of Salvation. Cain's working does not align with God's Works, but with the Devil's works.

How does your answer correspond with the mark of the beast in Rev 13?

That's actually what my OP was to lead one to, understanding how the "mark of the beast" is linked to the mark God put upon Cain involving Satan's beast nature. That's the nature imparted to Cain, and is what that mark is about.

In contrast, God has His mark He seals His servants in the forehead with (Rev.7). Per the Hebrew of Ezekiel 9, it is that of a cross.

I personally believe it was a curse and a blessing; a curse in that all would know his sin “a murderer”! A blessing that his fellowmen wouldn’t be able kill him, as God sees all. Within the mark it appears God provided Cain an opportunity to acknowledge his wrong, to plead for mercy, and to wipe out his reputation as a murderer. How tragic that he chose not to!

As we see with what our Lord Jesus said in John 8, and what Jude 1 and 2 Pet.2 says, the way of Cain would continue. There is a negative side of God's Plan which Cain and the Devil is being used for. The mark was never meant for Cain's salvation. But all men born in the flesh have the choice to repent and believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ.

Another point in mention is the fact that Cain went from the Lord becoming self reliant and built a city. Showing the same manner of behaviour as in the sacrifice he in effect builds his own temple or sanctuary in his own city.

The most ancient creation account is found in the Babylonian tablets. It is older than written Scripture. But the Babylonian tablet account is wrapped in pagan symbolism. It is like the antithesis to God's creation account in Genesis. That's another reason why I believe Sargon I was Cain that gave the ancient Sumerians the twisted creation account found in the Babylonian tablets. The Sumerians called Sargon son of Bel (dragon), which if that was Cain, reveals Cain continuing to follow the ways of the Devil.

The first apostate church is formed out of lies and murder.

And where was his church?

Land of Nod: It’s only mention once in the Bible and means wandering or exile from the word to flee or disappear.

Alethos

Like I said, I believe the land of Nod was ancient Sumer, and that Sargon I was actually Cain. As for that having anything to do with an apostate church I strongly disagree. God called the pagan houses of worship Beth-avens, which means houses of vanity. Regarding Christ's Salvation, there really is no such thing as an 'apostate church'. There are apostates that fall away from Him, and houses of vanity, but Christ's true Church can never be apostate. One is either in it standing in Christ, or they're out of it as an apostate and cut off from His Church.

 

[Alethos]

Veteran

Would you agree that Cain is the first man to worship God falsely? In other words, Cain dictated the terms of his worship?

Alethos

ps. I am trying to find common ground/understanding.

 

[veteran]

Veteran

Would you agree that Cain is the first man to worship God falsely? In other words, Cain dictated the terms of his worship?

Alethos

ps. I am trying to find common ground/understanding.

First flesh man yes, but not the first man. Satan was the first man to sin against God in false worship, of himself.

 

[Alethos]

First flesh man yes, but not the first man. Satan was the first man to sin against God in false worship, of himself.

Yes he is the first fleshly man to lie and murder.

[sup]1 John 3:12[/sup]We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one (sin) and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Murder came from the evil one? Yes?

Evil one produces in Cain murder...where does murder come from? his own evil deeds.

Jesus tells us where murder comes from...

"For from within (in Flesh), out of men's hearts (Carnal mind), come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, Mark 7:21

Its hard to escape the completeness of Bible truth...especially when it this clear.

Alethos

 

[veteran]

Yes he is the first fleshly man to lie and murder.

[sup]1 John 3:12[/sup]We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one (sin) and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Murder came from the evil one? Yes?

Evil one produces in Cain murder...where does murder come from? his own evil deeds.

Jesus tells us where murder comes from...

"For from within (in Flesh), out of men's hearts (Carnal mind), come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, Mark 7:21

Its hard to escape the completeness of Bible truth...especially when it this clear.

Alethos

I'm trying to understand; now just who did Jesus say was a murderer from the beginning in the below verse?

John 8:43-44
43 Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(KJV)

 

[Alethos]

I'm trying to understand; now just who did Jesus say was a murderer from the beginning in the below verse?

John 8:43-44
43 Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

(KJV)

Veteran, I am willing here to consider all alternatives and as you can appreciate I have not come to these understanding lightly.

The context of John 8 is a conversation between the Pharisees and Lord Jesus Christ. The chapter presents the “enmity” which existed between the seed of the woman (Jesus) and the seed of the serpent (Fleshly thinking – like the three grounds of the sower parable). So, it’s not surprising the many illusions to them being likened to a physical snake – animal is presented. Actually if you read John 8 you can almost see Jesus thinking about a serpent in his mind in that they are from beneath, they are close to the earth where their thinking was. They couldn’t hear like snakes and so on.

These men were falsely accusing Christ by slandering him as illegitimate. Just like the mind of the serpent in the beginning was a false accuser of God accusing Him of an untruth Gen 3:4.

While Cain was a murderer and being the first, you could argue the serpent mind in Eve because the first murder, she adopted his carnal thinking and disobeyed (Rom 8) she was murdered, in the sense of the penalty of death, killing them both. But in terms of the first actual physical murder it was Cain Gen 4:8-9.

So in both cases of Adam & Even & Cain a lie lead to death...to this we would both agree. Jesus tells us the source of all lies is in the flesh.

Veteran, I am not going to be dogmatic as to whether John 8:44 is speaking of the serpent or Cain? Why...because they both share the same way of thought. Rom 8:13, 4-6, 7-10 and you know the rest.

How do I fit into the record a supernatural monster including 1 John 3:12? Well I personally cannot. There is no foundation (Genesis) teaching to base an understanding. “IF” we had a chapter of section of scripture in the beginning (Genesis) which outlined the fallen aspect event, or showed God warning the first pair of this fallen angels motives and intentions, then I would not be writing these words. I believe God made the serpent with a voice as He made all animals, this one however was to test his children for how else could He ever know they would fulfil Heb 11:6?

God tests all His subjects and HE does so Himself. The personification of the sin and death is literally profound in the scriptures and I have been beating away at my keyboard trying to communicate this truth for some time, and will continue to do so.

Shane

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I am willing here to consider all alternatives and as you can appreciate I have not come to these understanding lightly.

The context of John 8 is a conversation between the Pharisees and Lord Jesus Christ. The chapter presents the “enmity” which existed between the seed of the woman (Jesus) and the seed of the serpent (Fleshly thinking – like the three grounds of the sower parable). So, it’s not surprising the many illusions to them being likened to a physical snake – animal is presented. Actually if you read John 8 you can almost see Jesus thinking about a serpent in his mind in that they are from beneath, they are close to the earth where their thinking was. They couldn’t hear like snakes and so on.

These men were falsely accusing Christ by slandering him as illegitimate. Just like the mind of the serpent in the beginning was a false accuser of God accusing Him of an untruth Gen 3:4.

While Cain was a murderer and being the first, you could argue the serpent mind in Eve because the first murder, she adopted his carnal thinking and disobeyed (Rom 8) she was murdered, in the sense of the penalty of death, killing them both. But in terms of the first actual physical murder it was Cain Gen 4:8-9.

So in both cases of Adam & Even & Cain a lie lead to death...to this we would both agree. Jesus tells us the source of all lies is in the flesh.

Veteran, I am not going to be dogmatic as to whether John 8:44 is speaking of the serpent or Cain? Why...because they both share the same way of thought. Rom 8:13, 4-6, 7-10 and you know the rest.

How do I fit into the record a supernatural monster including 1 John 3:12? Well I personally cannot. There is no foundation (Genesis) teaching to base an understanding. “IF” we had a chapter of section of scripture in the beginning (Genesis) which outlined the fallen aspect event, or showed God warning the first pair of this fallen angels motives and intentions, then I would not be writing these words. I believe God made the serpent with a voice as He made all animals, this one however was to test his children for how else could He ever know they would fulfil Heb 11:6?

God tests all His subjects and HE does so Himself. The personification of the sin and death is literally profound in the scriptures and I have been beating away at my keyboard trying to communicate this truth for some time, and will continue to do so.

Shane

The Scripture is not difficult to understand as written. Our Lord Jesus associated two evil workings there that originate with the devil, murder and telling lies.

 

[Alethos]

So you agree we have no Genesis record supporting a falling angel?

Interesting satan is not mentioned once in the Law?

I wonder why?

Alethos

 

[veteran]

So you agree we have no Genesis record supporting a falling angel?

Isa 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(KJV)

Luke 10:18
18 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(KJV)

Interesting satan is not mentioned once in the Law?

I wonder why?

Alethos

Per 1 John 3:4 'sin' is the 'transgression of the law'. Per 1 John 3:8 the devil sinned from the beginning.

Elementary.

 

[veteran]

To get down to the nitty-gritty, the beast nature is about those who go the 'way of Cain'. The 'mark' is associated with Cain in the beginning with Gen.4. It ends up being associated with the 'dragon' of Rev.13, which the 'dragon' title is another title for Satan himself per Rev.12:9.

In contrast to that beast nature and those who take the mark of the beast, is those of God's servants that don't take the mark of the beast. Instead, God seals His servants with His mark, which Ezek.9 reveals is a cross, representing Christ's Salvation on the cross.

Nothing difficult about the difference. Those of Cain who follow the devil's ways will take the "mark of the beast" because they have the beast nature in them instead of The Spirit of The Living GOD through Christ Jesus.

Those in Christ Jesus have overcome the beast nature already, i.e., the flesh body of sin, and that even though His servants still fall short of God's Glory and sinlessness. Those in Christ have The Promise. Those still with the beast nature do not. It's simple.

So what do you want? To try and live a sinless life of your flesh, seek perfection of your own? Won't happen.

Nor can you do it by trying to assign what Cain did to all men. Adam and Eve broke God's commandment to not eat of the wrong tree. But Cain murdered his own brother (and his seed continued in it). There is a difference, which is why Christ assigned the sins of the devil, AND of Cain to those scribes and Pharisees that wanted to murder Him. Christ did not say those things of John 8 to all peoples of Israel, i.e., those deceived by the evil scribes and Pharisees.

It's pretty obvious certain ones among the Jews wanted Christ dead. Not all the Jews did, for even the Pharisee Nicodemus brought spices for Christ's burial. It was certain beasts of the "crept in unawares" among the scribes and Pharisees that wanted to murder Jesus, and that's who He was talking to in those John 8 verses, the same ones who's father's had the blood of the prophets on their hands.

 

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THE BEAST - NOT A MAN

I submit the following assertions for your consideration.

That the Beast spoken of in the Bible is the modern corporation and that the Great Deception is it's influence upon our minds and hearts.

Consider that -
1. The Bible identifies the source of all evil as the obsession with wealth.

2. Absolute dedication to maximization of the wealth of the stockholders, as the sole priority for its existence, is entrenched in the basic corporate structure.

3. The pursuit of wealth is an anathema to the basic principle of life, as taught by Jesus, the Christ.

4. Neither the Beast, nor the image of the Beast, are clearly identified as an individual or government, only a ruling entity, and the only specific power relating to social structure, which is attributed to the controlling entity, is over financial transactions.

5. The accepted wisdom in the corporate society is that corporate control should replace elected and representative government.

6. The alarming increase of control that corporations are exercising over every aspect of life, through advertising, manipulating laws, and wholesale purchase of political influence, make them a united world power.

7. The "Mark of the Beast" is clearly a readable device that can be recognized that is used for control of a global financial system.

8. The technology of global financial and personal identification through the use of implantable devices is a present reality.

9. The "Great Deception" against humanity is identified in the Bible as having its origins with big business.

10. The "Santa Clara Decision" of 1886 (*) was a possible fulfillment of the prophecy about the image of the Beast receiving the power to speak and act like a human.
-Patrick Cooke

(*)"In 1886, . . . in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that a private corporation is a person and entitled to the legal rights and protections the Constitutions affords to any person."
-David Korten
The Post-Corporate World, Life After Capitalism (pp.185-6)

 

[veteran]

I'll assume you're addressing me, and will respond.

THE BEAST - NOT A MAN

I submit the following assertions for your consideration.

That the Beast spoken of in the Bible is the modern corporation and that the Great Deception is it's influence upon our minds and hearts.

I understand your premise, and agree with 1 Tim.6:10 about the love of money being the root of all evil. But I would not agree that does away with the first sin that the cherub Satan committed against God.

Consider that -

1. The Bible identifies the source of all evil as the obsession with wealth.

If one understands Ezek.28 where God is referring to Satan as trafficking in wealth, then one should also understand how that points to his coveting of wealth as also part of his sin. After Solomon was raised to David's throne and obeyed God's commandments, God asked Solomon what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom, not riches. God gave him wisdom, and riches. God made Solomon's kingdom SO wealthy, that all the nations around Israel marveled at it. With Job, he was wealthy when God allowed Satan to test him. And in the end, God restored to Job double. With Joseph who was separated from his brethren, God raised him to second in the kingdom of Egypt in charge of much wealth, and that was symbolic of God's Birthright blessing to the firstborn. The antithesis of that working is Satan trying to steal God's wealth and blessings He gives to those who follow Him. We are especially seeing that again today with the bleeding of wealth from the Christian nations by Satan's host on earth, and being given to nations that know not our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

So wealth is not a sin if it's from God's Hand, for Biblically, we're shown that God makes His people wealthy. It's the LOVE of wealth like Paul said which is where problems begin.

2. Absolute dedication to maximization of the wealth of the stockholders, as the sole priority for its existence, is entrenched in the basic corporate structure.

Not all corporations operate like that. The idea of a corporation is not the nemesis. I recall a Delta airlines employee who retired took out a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal, thanking Delta for being one of the best groups of people he had ever worked for and with. The ad cost around 3-5,000 U.S. dollars back then (1980's). Delta had a policy of absolutely no layoffs during economic down-turns. The company sucked it up, tightened their belt in other ways. They had some economic loss to do that. Because of that kind of thoughtfulness, Delta employees chipped in together out of their own pockets and bought the company a new commercial jet airliner. So movies with the Wall Street Hollywood theme (with Michael Douglas) are not the mark of all corporations out there, but such movies can serve as propaganda against any simple idea of capital wealth if one allows such ideas to sway our thinking. (I am not wealthy, not by American standards).

With the AIG and Wall Street banking elites, there is a problem there much bigger than the idea of a corporation. Some of those deserve to go under, and are guilty of trying to mass absolute wealth. But there could be another reason most aren't inclined to consider. Such groups at its highest inception could have the goal of trying to hose our economic system, using it like a weapon Communist Russia or Red China could use against us. The laws have been in place to prevent what happened with the recent financial crisis. And those who were responsible for regulation have yet to answer for it. That's what we should be looking into, else it will just happen again. I'm not above seeing how such workings can be used as a weapon by enemies of the U.S., which should be all the more reason for finding out who allowed it to happen, and fix it. The documentary Inside Job helps point in some of the right directions.

3. The pursuit of wealth is an anathema to the basic principle of life, as taught by Jesus, the Christ.

No, can't agree with that statement. We are to seek His Kingdom first, and then all things will be added unto us, that was His promise. Not everyone is called to be like His Apostles to go on the open road with The Gospel like missionaries. If that were not so, nations would not exist, including God's Israel on earth. The tribe of Levi was the only tribe not assigned an inheritance of the land like the rest of the tribes of Israel. God was to be their inheritance. But God owns everything.

4. Neither the Beast, nor the image of the Beast, are clearly identified as an individual or government, only a ruling entity, and the only specific power relating to social structure, which is attributed to the controlling entity, is over financial transactions.

I beg to differ. Consider why God assigned Nebuchadnezzar to dwell with the beasts of the field (Dan.4, a testimony by Nebuchadnezzar himself). 2 Pet.2 and Jude 1 refer to the idea of some men as "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed". In the Book of Daniel, the pagan kingdoms Daniel saw by vision were called 'beast' kingdoms, and animals were assigned to represent three of them. In Revelation 13 & 17, two separate beast types are given, one for a kingdom like Dan.7, and the other for an entity over it, a king, like the king of Babylon. Those are two of the most important associations from the Old Testament prophets that our Lord Jesus draws there in Revelation.

The third and forth seals of Rev.6 associate with the locust picture God gave in the Book of Joel, as does Rev.9 also. In Joel, God reveals four stages of a natural locust for how a certain people (as locusts) devour. That's put for 'how' the servants of the beast entity work to get control over the earth. And it does not only involve the economic sector. It involves the educational, the political, and the religious sectors also.

5. The accepted wisdom in the corporate society is that corporate control should replace elected and representative government.

Some corporations appear to be like that. We should be questioning our leaders and representatives for allowing lobbyists to carry as much sway as they do. It's up to US, the people, to fix that. They won't do it for us. But will individuals who abuse power stop? No, and that's where the real problem is. If our education system and media outlets push immoral behavior and snob at God's ways, does that mean to blame the idea of capital and companies? No. Even with Communist nations being forced to admit that capital and ownership promote economic security, they clearly show that. There's a huge problem with ethics today in general, not just in the business world.

6. The alarming increase of control that corporations are exercising over every aspect of life, through advertising, manipulating laws, and wholesale purchase of political influence, make them a united world power.

Funny, if you had said big government instead of corporations, it would be more believable. Those are ideas think tanks like the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR) want us to think. And the CFR membership is made up of many big corporate heads in just about every major industry, including all the major media outlets. Yet, that group is not an elected part of the U.S. government. Why not point to that and find out why that's allowed, since lot of today's decisions are made in such a group? And then look further, to the World Bank, the IMF, tax-exempt foundations, the United Nations, the Bilderburg world summits, etc. Globalism is here today; not something the people can just turn around in a few months or even years. Our Heavenly Father warned us in His Word about these times and this kind of global control over all nations. Just pointing to the idea of the corporation is a bit of a, sorry, but a bit of a cop out. But if the news media can keep us blinded about the globalist's organizations and think tanks that are setting policy to lead to a one world government, then they will have done their job, kind of like David Rockefeller remarked in his book. Singling out the idea of the corporation as the cause of evil helps them too.

7. The "Mark of the Beast" is clearly a readable device that can be recognized that is used for control of a global financial system.

Not so sure of that. I'm not denying there may come an identification system required for buying and selling, but Biblically, the mark of the beast is pointing to the opposite of God's mark of sealing in the forehead. What's inside your forehead? Your brain. The real mark of the beast, Biblically, is about being deceived to the system, doing its working, and accepting its morality, and bowing to the image of the beast entity in false worship. In contrast, God's mark of sealing is by The Holy Spirit, which is not meant as an outward physical mark on the body someplace.

8. The technology of global financial and personal identification through the use of implantable devices is a present reality.

Yep. I agree. Looks like they intend to control buying and selling on an individual basis. Not to worry. It will only exist for a very short time. Best to make other plans and not take it.

9. The "Great Deception" against humanity is identified in the Bible as having its origins with big business.

No, the 'apostasia' of 2 Thess.2:3-4 is associated with bowing in false worship to a false one sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. It's about a false messiah playing God, the very first sin that Satan did in rebellion of old. But will he use wealth too? Yes, as written in Daniel that craft will prosper in his hand, and he will destroy (spiritually) many using peace.

10. The "Santa Clara Decision" of 1886 (*) was a possible fulfillment of the prophecy about the image of the Beast receiving the power to speak and act like a human.

-Patrick Cooke

(*)"In 1886, . . . in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that a private corporation is a person and entitled to the legal rights and protections the Constitutions affords to any person."
-David Korten
The Post-Corporate World, Life After Capitalism (pp.185-6)

That still did not totally shield individuals from the weight of the law. It did things like protect personal property rights so crooked lawyers and judges couldn't go on a rampage against a person's home and family to turn them out on the street with nothing.

 

[Alethos]

Per 1 John 3:4 'sin' is the 'transgression of the law'. Per 1 John 3:8 the devil sinned from the beginning.

Elementary.

"Jesus destroys the Devil"

PASSAGE

1. Rom 8:3

2. Heb 2:14

3. Heb 9:26

4. 1Jo 3:5,8; 4:2

SUBJECT

1. God (Christ)

2. Christ

3. Christ

4. Son of God

ACTION

1. Condemned

2. Destroyed

3. Do away with

4. Take away or destroy

OBJECT DESTROYED

1. Sin

2. Devil (power of death: cp Rom 6:23; James 1:13-15).

3. Sin

4. Our sins, or the works of the devil

LOCATION

1. In the BODY, or in the flesh, of Christ.

2. Flesh and blood (HUMANITY).

3. By the sacrifice of HIMSELF.

4. "Appeared": where? In the FLESH (1Jo 4:2)

Or otherwise stated...

Christ was made flesh in order to destroy the devil which is sin in the flesh: Heb 2:14; 9:26; Rom 8:3.

Sin has the power of death, and sin comes from the flesh: Rom 6:23; 7:13,20; 1Co 15:56.

See the relationship between flesh and blood, sin, and the devil: Heb 2:14 (Christ partook of flesh and blood, in order that through his death, he might destroy the devil); Rom 8:3 (Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, and died as an offering for sin, and so condemned sin in the flesh); Eph 2:15,16 (Christ, in his flesh, reconciled us by his death on the cross, and so slew the enmity which is in our flesh).

 

[veteran]

Revelation 9:2-10 -- bottomless pit opened; locusts come out of it and given power to sting those not sealed by God.

Revelation 9:11 -- they have a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan, the Devil, that old serpent - Rev.12:9).

Revelation 11:7 -- the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills God's two witnesses.

Revelation 20:1-3 -- the Devil is cast into the pit in chains.

Revelation 20:7-9 -- the Devil is loosed from the prison pit to deceive the nations and lead them upon the camp of the saints and beloved city.

Revelation 20:10 -- the Devil is cast into the lake of fire and destroyed.

Revelation 20:14 -- death and hell and those who get the second death are cast into the lake of fire.


Satan is not literally destroyed de facto just yet.

And it is impossible for someone who claims to not believe the devil is real to preach that Christ has already destroyed him. Can't deny the devil ever existed and declare his being defeated by Christ at the same time, for that's is what a hypocrite does.

 

[Alethos]

Revelation 9:2-10 -- bottomless pit opened; locusts come out of it and given power to sting those not sealed by God.

Revelation 9:11 -- they have a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan, the Devil, that old serpent - Rev.12:9).

Revelation 11:7 -- the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills God's two witnesses.

Revelation 20:1-3 -- the Devil is cast into the pit in chains.

Revelation 20:7-9 -- the Devil is loosed from the prison pit to deceive the nations and lead them upon the camp of the saints and beloved city.

Revelation 20:10 -- the Devil is cast into the lake of fire and destroyed.

Revelation 20:14 -- death and hell and those who get the second death are cast into the lake of fire.


Satan is not literally destroyed de facto just yet.

And it is impossible for someone who claims to not believe the devil is real to preach that Christ has already destroyed him. Can't deny the devil ever existed and declare his being defeated by Christ at the same time, for that's is what a hypocrite does.

Veteran

We have established you cannot find the devil or supernatural satan in the OT, so you take me to the end days in the Apocalypse to establish your belief. If you do not understand the beginning (Genesis) how can you show an understanding of the end (Revelation)

Your belief is without a foundation, so the house you have built has no form and is void. The secrets of the Revelation will be closed to your eyes while you hold the doctrine of devils but in time I pray we can open them together.

Alethos