The beast that was and was not and yet is

[veteran]

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)

Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
(KJV)

I don't see n2thelight's post mentioning the Rev.17:10-11 verses. But since you bring it up...

The Rev.17:8 verse is pointing to Satan, and the Rev.17:10-11 verses are also. The beast of Rev.17:8 cannot be any other than Satan, because 1) he only is already assigned to perish as of yet; and 2) he only is that "angel of the bottomless pit" that ascends out of it in the last days, per Rev.9 & 11.

In several Scriptures of the OT prophets, God used the Assyrian as a symbolic name for Satan, pointing to the ancient pagan kings of history being under Satan's authority. In Isaiah 14; Ezek.28 & 31, God uses those ancient flesh kings as types for Satan himself. So Christ is pointing to those old beast king natures within these Rev.17 markers about these 8 beast kings.

The 6th beast king established in John's day was Domitian, emperor of Rome. The 7th is for the tribulation future to us, and the 8th is Satan's role at the end of Christ's Millennium reign released one last time to go deceive the nations.

 

[BibleScribe]

... once again,


The United Nations has NO population, NO geography, NO army, etc. However, this non-entity does control nations, wars, historical sites (including ~50 with the United States), packaging of hazardous materials (which used to be a function of the Department of Transportation), and shall in the near future control who buys and sells. Thus it "was and is not".


BibleScribe



To All,

An ancient fulfillment (i.e., Roman) was aptly discounted by the Abbingdon Commentary which observed that either the historical Roman sequence of emperors is incorrect, or John is a liar. And if history is correctly attributed, and the prophecy is assigned to those events, then apparently "veteran" would have you believe that latter is the circumstance.

“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”

Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392​

However, if the church realizes the events spoken of, upon the attack by Russia against Israel, then we know the "five of whom have fallen", the one which "is", the one "yet to come", and the eighth which "was and is not":

1. Babylonian (gold), 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Medo/Persian (silver), 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Grecian (bronze), 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Roman (iron), 4 of 5 has fallen
-- "divided"
-- 5. U.K./U.S. (lion/eagle), 5 of 5 has fallen from pre-eminence
-- 6. Russia (bear), "is"
-- 7. China (leopard), "yet to come"
-- 8. United Nations (dreadful), "was and is not"


BibleScribe
​

 

[veteran]

Sequence of Roman emperors had nothing to do with the previous 5 beast kingdoms.

The beast kingdom patterns from the Book of Daniel are to be followed, as suggested in Rev.13:1-2. The previous beast type kingdoms were Egypt, Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Perisa, and Macedonia.

 

[BibleScribe]

Sequence of Roman emperors had nothing to do with the previous 5 beast kingdoms.

...The previous beast type kingdoms were Egypt, Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Perisa, and Macedonia.

Daniel 2 cites the Babylonian Empire as the first. There's a reason that that assignment, but the fact is, your two assignments are simply where you arrive when you count backwards. For example, if Daniel had cited more empires, you would have simply continued to count backwards. So again, where History defends the Babylonian as the head of gold, you have no such basis.


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,” -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.

John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, , p. 35​

Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224


Furthermore, Daniel 8 substantiates this "metropolis" model both for the Babylonian Empire, and all subsequent empires. -- And even the creators of "Superman" recognize that influence by assigning that title to the city where "Clark Kent" lived.


BibleScribe​

 

[veteran]

Daniel 2 cites the Babylonian Empire as the first. There's a reason that that assignment, but the fact is, your two assignments are simply where you arrive when you count backwards. For example, if Daniel had cited more empires, you would have simply continued to count backwards. So again, where History defends the Babylonian as the head of gold, you have no such basis.


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,” -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.

John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, , p. 35​

Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224


Furthermore, Daniel 8 substantiates this "metropolis" model both for the Babylonian Empire, and all subsequent empires. -- And even the creators of "Superman" recognize that influence by assigning that title to the city where "Clark Kent" lived.


BibleScribe
​

Actually, the ancient Sumerian kingdom was probably the oldest, Assyriologists dating the Sumerian back to 3800 B.C. (Sayce). It's the IDEA of beast kingdoms of past history, so you can argue with yourself whether the ones prior to Babylon were Sumer, Egypt, Tyre, Babylonia, or Assyria, etc.

​

 

[BibleScribe]

Actually, the ancient Sumerian kingdom was probably the oldest, Assyriologists dating the Sumerian back to 3800 B.C. (Sayce). It's the IDEA of beast kingdoms of past history, so you can argue with yourself whether the ones prior to Babylon were Sumer, Egypt, Tyre, Babylonia, or Assyria, etc.

Christopher, Wolf, and Durant are historians with whom Scripture agrees. You have an agenda with whom neither agree. So your argument is with these objective facts. However, to be fair, I have provided these perspectives, and if you will provide objective historian citations, then we can discover who is agenda driven (using Machiavellian justification) versus who is factual. -- I.e., I don't believe that GOD needs us to create a false history to make Scripture work.

As such, if you can't find an objective authority to substantiate your assertion, then I would most strongly propose that you make that admission.




To All,

It is human nature to ascribe aspects which we can identify. Think about how may people see a monkey in the mountain, or a face on the Mars landscape. And thus we justify perspectives. However, Scripture is TRUE, and recorded History has no inherent agenda to the contrary. Thus these two should agree.


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,” -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.

John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, , p. 35
Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224


BibleScribe

​

 

[revturmoil]

The United Nations has NO population, NO geography, NO army, etc. However, this non-entity does control nations, wars, historical sites (including ~50 with the United States), packaging of hazardous materials (which used to be a function of the Department of Transportation), and shall in the near future control who buys and sells. Thus it "was and is not".

Explain to me how the UN is the beast that was.... How did the UN exist before the 1st century?

The UN has nothing to do with common people buying and selling and it never will. That's not a power or function that they have!

 

[veteran]

Christopher, Wolf, and Durant are historians with whom Scripture agrees. You have an agenda with whom neither agree. So your argument is with these objective facts. However, to be fair, I have provided these perspectives, and if you will provide objective historian citations, then we can discover who is agenda driven (using Machiavellian justification) versus who is factual. -- I.e., I don't believe that GOD needs us to create a false history to make Scripture work.

As such, if you can't find an objective authority to substantiate your assertion, then I would most strongly propose that you make that admission.




To All,

It is human nature to ascribe aspects which we can identify. Think about how may people see a monkey in the mountain, or a face on the Mars landscape. And thus we justify perspectives. However, Scripture is TRUE, and recorded History has no inherent agenda to the contrary. Thus these two should agree.


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,” -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.

John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, , p. 35
Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224


BibleScribe


​

That's attempts at putting men's traditions over The Word of God by The Holy Spirit. Historians are more concerned with dates and archeaology than with spiritual discernment in God's Word.

I've already Biblically outlined the basis for the idea of 'beast' kingdoms per God's Word. Christ did it in Revleation also with the Rev.13:2 references to the beast type kingdoms of Daniel 7. Problem many have when they get to Rev.17:8 about the idea of a beast king, they forget that reference to the old beast kingdoms that had flesh kings who tried to exalt themselves above God...


Ezek 28:2-15
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, "I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, "I am God?" but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)

​

 

[BibleScribe]

That's attempts at putting men's traditions over The Word of God by The Holy Spirit. Historians are more concerned with dates and archeaology than with spiritual discernment in God's Word.
...

You make up a false history to support a false doctrine, and assure everyone that your god is not a false god.


Either GOD is TRUE or HE is false. -- And you have presented a false god.



To All,

It's a simple thing to weigh Scripture against the Historical record. And where false teachers would attempt to beguile you with smooth words, GOD is reputable both in Word and in deed. And so we should find merit in the historical record, as provided.


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,” -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.

John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35
Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224



Daniel 2, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, Revelation 13, and Revelation 17 all agree as to the significance of both the Babylonian "metropolis" model, and the subsequent sequence of world empires. It's a Scriptural and Historical fact. However, some exercise their GOD given free will by picking and choosing which they will receive and which they decline.


BibleScribe

 

[tgwprophet]

Vetran wrote:
"In other words, it's more profitable to ponder as many different things for the 'mark' like a bunch of Greek philosophers who only loved to hear new things while never coming to the truth, instead of learning what God's Word reveals about it and who the antichrist will be? Is that the kind of reasoning the Churches are teaching today?"

"who ONLY loved...." During the last decades as we progress toward the return of Jesus we (as Christains) have become more enlightened. As this is a quest for Christains who have picked up their flashlights and shields to be watchmen... we must consider new or diverse ideas... this does not imply that our "love" is in these new or different ideas, merely that we approach with an open mind in our attempts for reslove. Personally, I am here in these forums to understand the different ideas of others and not allow myself to be restricted by my own prejudices. Are we not here to both learn and share?

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

There were ten kings at first, but this deals with seven different kings. These seven kings have been over their dominions for some time. There is only one king that Christ has given power over all the earth in the past two thousand years, and that king is Satan. These seven kings represent the seven offices that Satan has held, from the "dragon" in the first earth age, "serpent" in the garden, all the way through this age to the Antichrist at the end of this age. There has been five roles that Satan has and is playing to this date, and Satan is our "accuser" before the throne of God today, but in time he will be right here on earth filling the role of Antichrist, which will be for a very short time. Satan's final role starts shortly, very shortly, with Michael casting him out of heaven [Revelation 12:7]. He will have only five months in his final role of this earth age.

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Remember in verse eight, "he" was the one out of the pit. Satan's "eighth" role is when he goes into perdition. Why, "of the seven"? Because he was over the seven, one entity in all seven positions; and now this eighth is his last.
No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.

Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."

These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.
The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

This is the time to have your Spiritual armor on and ready for the battle. There is no "rapture" or escape from this hour of temptation here on earth, but God's armor is sufficient to protect you during this spiritual battle. I am aware that this is the point that deceivers use to draw you in; however, it is the very deception that will lead you to the Antichrist.

Revelation 17:13 "These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

There can be no doubt now who rules over the ten kings, or authorities, or agencies: it is Antichrist, the beast. The nations of the world have no borders, or boundaries. The Euphrates has dried up, and Israel and Babylon are one in mind and accord. These authorities must be similar to the ten agencies that now rule the earth, under the United Nations. These are UNICEF [for the children], the World Bank [economics], the World court [to settle disputes], Red Cross [the world health organization], Relief [starvation], the U.N. forces [military], Space, Environment, and the Beast [universal information and control computer], and Education, as well as the World council of churches.
Anything you can imagine is covered and governed by one of these ten agencies.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
... These authorities must be similar to the ten agencies that now rule the earth, under the United Nations. These are UNICEF [for the children], the World Bank [economics], the World court [to settle disputes], Red Cross [the world health organization], Relief [starvation], the U.N. forces [military], Space, Environment, and the Beast [universal information and control computer], and Education, as well as the World council of churches.
Anything you can imagine is covered and governed by one of these ten agencies.

I can certainly understand how someone would create an hypothesis, then a theory, and then the TRUTH. However, the above is certainly not the TRUTH, not even a theory, and still not a well considered hypothesis.

But all is not lost, provided Scripture is amply considered. And to progress toward that foundation, I might suggest that one consider the Book of Daniel, -- for Walvoord correctly surmised that Daniel is the Key to Prophetic Revelation, and wrote his book with basically that same title.


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Stay with it n2thelight, you're on the right track.

 

[BibleScribe]

Stay with it n2thelight, you're on the right track.

Per observation in Post #69, you contrive a false history to match a false doctrine. So according to that standard, WE'RE ALL doing well. -- OR Scripture and History MUST agree.


Deuteronomy 18:22 (NKJV)
[sup]22[/sup] when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Jeremiah 28:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9[/sup] As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent.”



Scripture says if a prophecy (i.e., Scripture) come to pass (i.e., History) then that messenger is truly sent. But in Post #65, "veteran" provides a non-historical ~fulfillment~, and thus we know that his testimony is NOT "truly sent". However, in Post #66 has come to pass, and according to Scripture, that message IS "truly sent".



So independent of any personality, we MUST weigh ourselves and others against Scripture.

BibleScribe

 

[n2thelight]

I can certainly understand how someone would create an hypothesis, then a theory, and then the TRUTH. However, the above is certainly not the TRUTH, not even a theory, and still not a well considered hypothesis.

But all is not lost, provided Scripture is amply considered. And to progress toward that foundation, I might suggest that one consider the Book of Daniel, -- for Walvoord correctly surmised that Daniel is the Key to Prophetic Revelation, and wrote his book with basically that same title.


BibleScribe

All I do is plant seeds,my foundation is set......

Now,what does perdition mean?

Strong's G684 - apōleia

ἀπώλεια

Transliteration

apōleia

Pronunciation

ä-pō'-lā-ä (Key)


Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From a presumed derivative of ἀπόλλυμι (G622) ​

TDNT Reference

1:396,67 ​

Vines

View Entry​

Outline of Biblical Usage


1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
B) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
So who is the only one in the entire Word of God by name that has already been sentenced to death?satan!The other's are the 7000 that will die instantly when Christ feet touch the Mount of Olives.....

It may not be the truth as you see it,however as per the Word of God,it's very true!!!

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

So simple,if you have eye's to see

 

[BibleScribe]

All I do is plant seeds,my foundation is set......

Now,what does perdition mean?

Strong's G684 - apōleia
...

I think the obvious significance is found in Daniel 2:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

... and as amplified by Daniel 7:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations

Thus one should find that the eighth "was and is not" for it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc.


And having performed the above, then one should anticipate the significance of Daniel 7:11-12:

[sup]11[/sup] “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. [sup]12[/sup] As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.


... where the U.N. shall be destroyed, and the three superpowers shall continue until converted into the new Millennium model.



BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

All I do is plant seeds,my foundation is set......

Now,what does perdition mean?

Strong's G684 - apōleia

ἀπώλεια

Transliteration

apōleia

Pronunciation

ä-pō'-lā-ä (Key)


Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From a presumed derivative of ἀπόλλυμι (G622)


TDNT Reference
​

1:396,67


Vines
​

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage


1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
B) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
So who is the only one in the entire Word of God by name that has already been sentenced to death?satan!The other's are the 7000 that will die instantly when Christ feet touch the Mount of Olives.....

It may not be the truth as you see it,however as per the Word of God,it's very true!!!

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

So simple,if you have eye's to see
​

Very correct; those who somehow think that anyone other than Satan and his angels that rebelled with him are already sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire" have not the Light of God in them.

​

 

[BibleScribe]

I would argue that first of all, the Revelation 17 "eighth" is the same as the Daniel 7 "dreadful". Secondly, "n2thelight" incorrectly equated the beast with the a/c:

There can be no doubt now who rules over the ten kings, or authorities, or agencies: it is Antichrist, the beast.

And this causes a problem with your position, in that the a/c is human and thus your position that "anyone other than Satan and his angels" now contradicts your own statement of "Very correct".


But the entire "n2thelight" presentation, (Post #71), begs a comprehensive study to identify the mouth/body/feet; the comprehensive beast; the ten horns; the seven heads (not to mention how the eighth fits in); and finally the false prophet. And lacking this assessment, all we have is wishful thinking. But if wishful thinking is sufficient for you, then who am I to propose specifics?!?


BibleScribe

 

[n2thelight]

I would argue that first of all, the Revelation 17 "eighth" is the same as the Daniel 7 "dreadful". Secondly, "n2thelight" incorrectly equated the beast with the a/c:

There can be no doubt now who rules over the ten kings, or authorities, or agencies: it is Antichrist, the beast.

And this causes a problem with your position, in that the a/c is human and thus your position that "anyone other than Satan and his angels" now contradicts your own statement of "Very correct".


But the entire "n2thelight" presentation, (Post #71), begs a comprehensive study to identify the mouth/body/feet; the comprehensive beast; the ten horns; the seven heads (not to mention how the eighth fits in); and finally the false prophet. And lacking this assessment, all we have is wishful thinking. But if wishful thinking is sufficient for you, then who am I to propose specifics?!?


BibleScribe

The 2nd beast is the a/c,whom is non other than satan himself....The a/c is not human!!!!!!!

 

[veteran]

The 2nd beast is the a/c,whom is non other than satan himself....The a/c is not human!!!!!!!

Very correct again.

The coming false messiah/antichrist called the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, is the Rev.17:8 beast king that ascends out of the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition. It's Satan himself, booted down to this earth with angels in the last days per Rev.12:7 forward.