The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

[Taken]

Didn't you say, in so many words, that nothing is a sin unless it's done directly against God? Otherwise, didn't you say, it is merely a trespass?

Sin is against God. God forgives sin.
Not believing IN the Lord God Almighty IS sin Against God.

Man against man is a Trespass. Men forgive men of Trespasses.

If you believe you can forgive sin,
That would be your belief. Not mine.

 

[Bob Estey]

Sin is against God. God forgives sin.
Not believing IN the Lord God Almighty IS sin Against God.

Man against man is a Trespass. Men forgive men of Trespasses.

If you believe you can forgive sin,
That would be your belief. Not mine.

Sin is against God, but if I bear false witness against you, I am sinning against God (and if you bear false witness against me, you sin against God).

 

[Taken]

Sin is against God, but if I bear false witness against you, I am sinning against God (and if you bear false witness against me, you sin against God).

If that is your view, okay.
Then I would believe you ARE a Jew, under the Mosaic Law….and NOT born Again.

Because Under Mosaic Law of man against man were called “sins”.

Because without the Mosaic Law, Not believing IN the Lord God IS a mans SIN Against God.

Because a Man who DOES believe IN the Lord God…shall be SAVED when his body dies.

Because a Man who calls on the Lords name, and CONFESSES his Belief IN the Lord God…
IS :repenting, for having not believed.
IS: laying down his life for the Love of God
IS: verified (by God), that mans testimony IS True.
IF: the mans testimony be TRUE;
IS: that man IS then” MADE saved (ie soul restored back to good) and spirit quickened (ie born again) and body accounted Dead and man reside IN Christ Jesus’ risen body and that man wait for Gods Promise to manifest and the mans BODY risen in its OWN Glory.
(Mans soul saved; spirit quickened; body perfected IN Christ….called wholly whole and IS Sanctified, Once and Forever KEPT Sanctified by the Power (Spirit) of God that resided WITH and IN that man.

From there forward….never again can THAT man SIN.

Now go remind yourself of WHAT “was” a mans SIN AGAINST God?
Not believing IN the Lord God.

What does A mans relationship WITH God have to do WITH relationships between man and man?
Two Commands…
Love God FIRST
Love All men SECONDLY

Can men LIE TO God…..Yes
Does Holy Spirit EVER forgive a man who LIES to Him? No
Can a man FOOL God…Lie to Him, say he believes, confess his belief, receive salvation, then say he does not believe? No.
God IS ALL KNOWING, any man who confesses his belief, and at some point decides to not believe….the all knowing God….DID NOT KNOW that? Did God become tricked by his own creation? No.

Who KNOWS “IF” a mans Confession IS TRUE?
The man AND God.
Any Other man CAN be fooled when hearing a FALSE confession.

Once a man HAS truly believed AND Confessed his Belief…..He receives Gods Offering. Done Deal. Nothing whatsoever can CHANGE the mans transformation of God SEALING that man unto Himself…and that man becoming MADE a “son of God”.

So what DOES Scripture SAY ABOUT a man WHO HAS become “MADE” “born of God”?


1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What does “doth not COMMIT sin mean?”
What does “CANNOT mean?”

Does it mean, ONE man who claims “HE” IS “Born of God”, and still sins…that ALL other men who claim they are “Born of God….ALSO still sins?

No.

IF “you” ARE “born again” and claim “you still commit Sin and Can Sin”….

What is your point you are arguing?
You are NOT born again or You do not believe scripture?

 

[Lambano]

I can't believe in Universalism because I take the biblical warnings seriously. I do allow for the possibility of a post-mortem place of purging based on single parable of Jesus that I'm probably misinterpreting anyway. I tend towards Annihilationism over Damnationism both because of taking the biblical language of death and destruction quite literally, and because it occurred to me that an entity that would be so cruel that it would torture human beings forever and ever without end can't be trusted to keep its promises to save. Or to tell the truth in this book it is said to have written. But it's an uneasy intellectual truce.

There.

I said it.

 

[St. SteVen]

I can't believe in Universalism because I take the biblical warnings seriously. I do allow for the possibility of a place of post-mortem place of purging based on single parable of Jesus that I'm probably misinterpreting anyway. I tend towards annihilationism both because of taking the biblical language of death and destruction quite literally, and because it occurred to me that an entity that would be so cruel that it would torture human beings forever and ever without end can't be trusted to keep its promises to save. Or to tell the truth in this book it is said to have written. But it's an uneasy intellectual truce.

Well said.
I respect anyone that can give this a hard look and take a position.
It's tough. There are three biblical views and they are all in conflict with one another.

In defense of the UR view, I would say the Universalist can take the biblical warnings seriously.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It would be better to lose that hand or eye than go to judgment over the associated sin.
Every idle word and sinful act will be on display for all to see.
The purpose however, I believe will be correction and restoration and ultimate redemption. IMHO

/ @Hillsage

 

[St. SteVen]

I can't believe in Universalism because I take the biblical warnings seriously.

Fair enough.

I do allow for the possibility of a post-mortem place of purging based on single parable of Jesus that I'm probably misinterpreting anyway.

Even Damnationists allow for believers to have their wood, hay, and stubble burned up.
And if they are left with nothing, still escape through the flames.

I tend towards Annihilationism over Damnationism both because of taking the biblical language of death and destruction quite literally

Yes, and in fact both views are well-supported biblically.

and because it occurred to me that an entity that would be so cruel that it would torture human beings forever and ever without end can't be trusted to keep its promises to save.

This is the lynch-pin from my perspective. What does Damnationism say about the character of God?

Or to tell the truth in this book it is said to have written. But it's an uneasy intellectual truce.

It just isn't entirely clear. An "uneasy intellectual truce", for sure.

/

 

[Bob Estey]

If that is your view, okay.
Then I would believe you ARE a Jew, under the Mosaic Law….and NOT born Again.

Because Under Mosaic Law of man against man were called “sins”.

Because without the Mosaic Law, Not believing IN the Lord God IS a mans SIN Against God.

Because a Man who DOES believe IN the Lord God…shall be SAVED when his body dies.

Because a Man who calls on the Lords name, and CONFESSES his Belief IN the Lord God…
IS :repenting, for having not believed.
IS: laying down his life for the Love of God
IS: verified (by God), that mans testimony IS True.
IF: the mans testimony be TRUE;
IS: that man IS then” MADE saved (ie soul restored back to good) and spirit quickened (ie born again) and body accounted Dead and man reside IN Christ Jesus’ risen body and that man wait for Gods Promise to manifest and the mans BODY risen in its OWN Glory.
(Mans soul saved; spirit quickened; body perfected IN Christ….called wholly whole and IS Sanctified, Once and Forever KEPT Sanctified by the Power (Spirit) of God that resided WITH and IN that man.

From there forward….never again can THAT man SIN.

Now go remind yourself of WHAT “was” a mans SIN AGAINST God?
Not believing IN the Lord God.

What does A mans relationship WITH God have to do WITH relationships between man and man?
Two Commands…
Love God FIRST
Love All men SECONDLY

Can men LIE TO God…..Yes
Does Holy Spirit EVER forgive a man who LIES to Him? No
Can a man FOOL God…Lie to Him, say he believes, confess his belief, receive salvation, then say he does not believe? No.
God IS ALL KNOWING, any man who confesses his belief, and at some point decides to not believe….the all knowing God….DID NOT KNOW that? Did God become tricked by his own creation? No.

Who KNOWS “IF” a mans Confession IS TRUE?
The man AND God.
Any Other man CAN be fooled when hearing a FALSE confession.

Once a man HAS truly believed AND Confessed his Belief…..He receives Gods Offering. Done Deal. Nothing whatsoever can CHANGE the mans transformation of God SEALING that man unto Himself…and that man becoming MADE a “son of God”.

So what DOES Scripture SAY ABOUT a man WHO HAS become “MADE” “born of God”?


1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What does “doth not COMMIT sin mean?”
What does “CANNOT mean?”

Does it mean, ONE man who claims “HE” IS “Born of God”, and still sins…that ALL other men who claim they are “Born of God….ALSO still sins?

No.

IF “you” ARE “born again” and claim “you still commit Sin and Can Sin”….

What is your point you are arguing?
You are NOT born again or You do not believe scripture?

Are you telling me that if I rob you, I haven't committed a sin?

 

[Taken]

Are you telling me that if I rob you, I haven't committed a sin?

What I’m telling you is;

You have to choose for yourself according to Gods Word or according to mans word.

Be you IN the world or be you OF the world.

I can know you by your Fruits

One man “robbing” another IS an “intentional” act of malice.

Your “act’ would reveal to me…”your fruits”…
“You ARE Against God, OF the world, Have intentionally with malice Trespassed Against me, Not Converted, Not a brother of mine.

Against God, would be your sin, that only God can forgive… IF you ask.
Against me, would be your trespass, that I can forgive… IF you ask.

Receipt OF Forgiveness “FROM” God, “requires” something “from you” be “given TO God.)
(Your blood which is your body’s Life)

Receipt OF Forgiveness “FROM” me, “requires” something “from you” be “given TO me.)
(Return of or compensation for what you “robbed” from me.)

A man who “robs” another man with malice, IS a Trespasser Against men, By thievery.

A man who “robs” another man with malice,
IS “proving” he IS a SINNER, AGAINST God.

Whether or not a man IS a thief Against me, against others; he IS Against God.
And as long as he (thief or not) remains Against God, he has NO relationship with God, and IS committing SIN Against God, and quite likely a routine Trespasser against men.

Sin is a man Against God.
Only God Forgives Sin.
Trespassing is a man Against man.
Men Forgives trespasses.

If you think a “mans” intentional act with malice Against a man … IS SIN, I disagree.
Rather I would say, THAT MANS SIN is his own LACK of having a Standing Relationship with God;
And WHY “without God”, his Trespassing AGAINST men is of NO concern of being wrong….(no doubt per usual, the Trespasser’s concern is to AVOID getting caught and being held accountable.)

Without ANY mans input, God Himself has a SET timeframe when ALL Against God shall be “caught’ (ie revealed and held accountable).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MatthewG]

I can't believe in Universalism because I take the biblical warnings seriously. I do allow for the possibility of a post-mortem place of purging based on single parable of Jesus that I'm probably misinterpreting anyway. I tend towards Annihilationism over Damnationism both because of taking the biblical language of death and destruction quite literally, and because it occurred to me that an entity that would be so cruel that it would torture human beings forever and ever without end can't be trusted to keep its promises to save. Or to tell the truth in this book it is said to have written. But it's an uneasy intellectual truce.

There.

I said it.

Alright.

 

[Taken]

I can't believe in Universalism because I take the biblical warnings seriously. I do allow for the possibility of a post-mortem place of purging based on single parable of Jesus that I'm probably misinterpreting anyway. I tend towards Annihilationism over Damnationism both because of taking the biblical language of death and destruction quite literally, and because it occurred to me that an entity that would be so cruel that it would torture human beings forever and ever without end can't be trusted to keep its promises to save. Or to tell the truth in this book it is said to have written. But it's an uneasy intellectual truce.

There.

I said it.

First a basic tenet of one claiming to be:
A Universalist…

Universalism is a doctrine that teaches all people will be saved.

* Scripture teaches no such thing.

* Scripture teaches an Offering to all to receive Salvation, according to Gods “way”.
* Scripture teaches ALL WILL Believe.
* Scripture teaches Confession of Belief “TO Receive Salvation” is Limited to a mans Belief WHILE the man IS alive in “his body’s BLOOD life” to the moment of that mans body’s Physical bodily Death.
* Scripture teaches a mans dead body is buried.
* Scripture teaches a mans “living soul” departs his dead body.
* Scripture teaches a mans departed “saved living souls is escorted to heaven, to wait in comfort for his Judgement.
* Scripture teaches a mans departed “unsaved soul” is sent to hell, to wait in duress for his Judgement.
* Scripture teaches the body of the “saved soul”, shall be raised in Glory, Judged, and forever WITH God.
* Scripture teaches the body of the ‘unsaved soul”, shall be raised in Damnation and Judged. The LIFE in his Soul returned to God and his lifeless body and lifeless soul thrown in and destroyed in the Lake of Fire, (in Hell) and Forgotten.

Yes, I Trust and Believe Scripture.
No, I do not trust or believe in the so called universalist doctrine.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

Universalism is a doctrine that teaches all people will be saved.

You say that like it's a bad thing. - LOL
God wants everyone to be saved, don't you?

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
You can't claim that the Bible only teaches one.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism (UR)

Are you claiming that Annihilationism is unbiblical?

/

 

[marks]

No, I do not trust or believe in the so called universalist doctrine.

It's flat-out false, easily shown false to any real Bible believer.

And it seems like all his threads are designed to manipulatively push universalism. Shameful in my opinion!

Much love!

 

[Taken]

It's flat-out false, easily shown false to any real Bible believer.

Agree.

And it seems like all his threads are designed to manipulatively push universalism. Shameful in my opinion!

Much love!

Agree and why I have him on ignore.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bob Estey]

What I’m telling you is;

You have to choose for yourself according to Gods Word or according to mans word.

Be you IN the world or be you OF the world.

I can know you by your Fruits

One man “robbing” another IS an “intentional” act of malice.

Your “act’ would reveal to me…”your fruits”…
“You ARE Against God, OF the world, Have intentionally with malice Trespassed Against me, Not Converted, Not a brother of mine.

Against God, would be your sin, that only God can forgive… IF you ask.
Against me, would be your trespass, that I can forgive… IF you ask.

Receipt OF Forgiveness “FROM” God, “requires” something “from you” be “given TO God.)
(Your blood which is your body’s Life)

Receipt OF Forgiveness “FROM” me, “requires” something “from you” be “given TO me.)
(Return of or compensation for what you “robbed” from me.)

A man who “robs” another man with malice, IS a Trespasser Against men, By thievery.

A man who “robs” another man with malice,
IS “proving” he IS a SINNER, AGAINST God.

Whether or not a man IS a thief Against me, against others; he IS Against God.
And as long as he (thief or not) remains Against God, he has NO relationship with God, and IS committing SIN Against God, and quite likely a routine Trespasser against men.

Sin is a man Against God.
Only God Forgives Sin.
Trespassing is a man Against man.
Men Forgives trespasses.

If you think a “mans” intentional act with malice Against a man … IS SIN, I disagree.
Rather I would say, THAT MANS SIN is his own LACK of having a Standing Relationship with God;
And WHY “without God”, his Trespassing AGAINST men is of NO concern of being wrong….(no doubt per usual, the Trespasser’s concern is to AVOID getting caught and being held accountable.)

Without ANY mans input, God Himself has a SET timeframe when ALL Against God shall be “caught’ (ie revealed and held accountable).

Glory to God,
Taken

Clearly, if I rob you, I've sinned. God told us not to steal. It's one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus quoted it, himself.

 

[Taken]

Clearly, if I rob you, I've sinned. God told us not to steal. It's one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus quoted it, himself.

And do you believe born again people rob God?

 

[St. SteVen]

Agree and why I have him on ignore.

Too bad we can't put staff members on ignore.

/

 

[Bob Estey]

And do you believe born again people rob God?

No, not all of them.

 

[Taken]

No, not all of them.

Ok, TY

 

[Bob Estey]

Ok, TY

I don't think we suddenly become perfect just because we turn to God. Does the alcohol abuser suddenly stop abusing alcohol, or does the Lord have to work with him for awhile? Does the lustful person suddenly stop lusting or does the Lord have to work with him for a while? And so on.

 

[Taken]

I don't think we suddenly become perfect just because we turn to God. Does the alcohol abuser suddenly stop abusing alcohol, or does the Lord have to work with him for awhile? Does the lustful person suddenly stop lusting or does the Lord have to work with him for a while? And so on.

Does it matter what we think or what the Lord God has said?

The Lord God has established “His way” for a person to receive “sanctification”. Addictions to or from are not mentioned.
He did not come to MAKE our bodies “perfect, sinless, glorified”…..YET.

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.