The Coming Great Apostasy

[Earburner]

That makes Jesus into the Antichrist. Sorry to say this but that is utter blasphemy. The Temple was destroyed because of Israel's continued unbelief and because they persisted in thinking that war was the way to be rescued from under the heel of Rome. Sad that they seem to have never understood that a turning to God's Son (God was/is the owner of the Vineyard) was the only thing necessary for their rescue.

When you associate the correct "he" to verse 27, you will then understand that it was Jesus who "confirmed the covenant with many for one week".
Do the math of when Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in the midst of that week. That's 3.5 years, which is the time from his Baptism to His Resurrection. In the remainder of that week, he continued to confirm the covenant, the NEW Covenant, with the early church, in the day of Pentecost. As also as seen with Paul's conversion, and the confirmation of Paul through Ananias' vision.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

No it does not!! Your thinking goes that way because of the false indoctrination the churches pound into our heads.
As I have said before, there is no such thing as a one man band, singular man, to come, that the churches love to call "THE" Antichrist.
"That spirit of antichrist", yes, but not "THE" Antichrist.

Then who is the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition"? I understand that there is a "spirit of antichrist". It is quite obviously abroad today and has been since Jesus' advent. But there is the matter of the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 ("horns" are seen as symbols of kingdoms or kings). Also see the end-time Ten Kings of the Book of Revelation. That "horn" of Daniel's vision has always been seen as a human being. He "has a mouth to arrogantly boast". Since this little horn rises up during the terrible time of the Fourth Beast (which has not yet occurred)--we are talking of a real Antichrist figure. Satan always tries to imitate whatever God does.

 

[Earburner]

Then who is the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition"? I understand that there is a "spirit of antichrist". It is quite obviously abroad today and has been since Jesus' advent. But there is the matter of the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 ("horns" are seen as symbols of kingdoms or kings). Also see the end-time Ten Kings of the Book of Revelation. That "horn" of Daniel's vision has always been seen as a human being. He "has a mouth to arrogantly boast". Since this little horn rises up during the terrible time of the Fourth Beast (which has not yet occurred)--we are talking of a real Antichrist figure. Satan always tries to imitate whatever God does.

I have been speaking about that on this thread.
Please read the KJV only.
2 Thes. Ch. 2 is to be read in the plural, just as we read and understand that the words "the natural man" is read and understood in the plural.
The context of 2 Thes. 2 is in the plural.
"The natural man" (the unsaved man) is "that man of sin, the son of perdition".
See also 1Cor. 2:14

 

[CoreIssue]

When you associate the correct "he" to verse 27, you will then understand that it was Jesus who "confirmed the covenant with many for one week".
Do the math of when Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in the midst of that week. That's 3.5 years, which is the time from his Baptism to His Resurrection. In the remainder of that week, he continued to confirm the covenant, the NEW Covenant, with the early church, in the day of Pentecost. As also as seen with Paul's conversion, and the confirmation of Paul through Ananias' vision.

Christ was killed at the end of the 69th week. Immediately after its conclusion.

The AC will confirm the covenat for one week. His time will conclude at the end of the seventieth when he is thrown into the pit.

The messiah does not confirm any covenant, the prince that comes does.

The AOD is a statue of the AC set up in the temple that all must worship and take the mark of the beast, the AC.

The new covenant is to the house's of Israel and Judah, not gentiles. It is not in place yet. The Blood Covenant is.

 

[Phoneman777]

The prophecy speaks of Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself. Which is a reference to the crucifixion.

I agree, but it also speaks of the 70 Weeks being "determined" ("cut off") from the larger prophecy of the 2,300 Days, does it not?

The time between the decree of Cyrus and the crucifixion was 483 years (69 weeks). There is absolutely nothing about Christ's baptism in that prophecy.

The scant decrees of Cyrus and Darius cannot compare to the comprehensive decree of Artaxerxes which makes it the only one that fits Gabriel's description of it, and if you count from "the seventh year reign of Artaxerxes (457 B.C.)" you come to 27 A.D., the only year Pilate, Herod, and Augustus reigned simultaneously and was when Jesus was baptized "about 30 years old". All scholars know Jesus was actually born about 4 or 3 B.C.

Now that's SDA theology, but also really stretching it. Why in the world would the Heavenly Sanctuary need cleansing? It has always been clean and pure, since the throne of God is there.

Paul not only says the Heavenly Sanctuary needs cleansing, but tells us the elements which cleanse it have to be superior to those which cleansed the Earthly sanctuary:

Hebrews 8:5 "...as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount."

Hebrews 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.​

 

[CoreIssue]

Please read the KJV only.

The KJV is loaded with errors been written in archaic English. Cults and false doctrines love it
The cause is so difficult to understand and they can spin the meaning to whatever they want and become the arbitrators of what the bible says.

The NIV and NASB are superior in accuracy and readability.

 

[Phoneman777]

Get some "thick skin" and move on with the topic at hand. No one is shouting at anyone. By this site's permission, we have punctuating highlights above, to emphasize our words. If that's shouting to you, then go find shelter.

Oh, trust me, you ain't hurtin my feelings, but I think it's you who needs to understand that facts don't care about feelings

 

[CoreIssue]

I agree, but it also speaks of the 70 Weeks being "determined" ("cut off") from the larger prophecy of the 2,300 Days, does it not? The scant decrees of Cyrus and Darius cannot compare to the comprehensive decree of Artaxerxes which makes it the only one that fits Gabriel's description of it, and if you count from "the seventh year reign of Artaxerxes (457 B.C.)" you come to 27 A.D., the only year Pilate, Herod, and Augustus reigned simultaneously and was when Jesus was baptized "about 30 years old". All scholars know Jesus was actually born about 4 or 3 B.C.
Paul not only says the Heavenly Sanctuary needs cleansing, but tells us the elements which cleanse it have to be superior to those which cleansed the Earthly sanctuary:

Hebrews 8:5 "...as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount."

Hebrews 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.​

No where in the bible does it say the heavenly sanctuary needs cleaning. No where.

 

[Earburner]

Christ was killed at the end of the 69th week. Immediately after its conclusion.

The AC will confirm the government for one week. His time will conclude at the end of the seventieth when he is thrown into the pit.

The messiah does not confirm any covenant, the prince that comes does.

The AOB is a statue of the AC set up in the temple that all must worship and take the mark and the beast, the AC.

What you are speaking, is all their religious, regurgitated false doctrine, from the "scholarly learned" of "church-ianity".
We ARE NOT to be " guided" by them and their religious commentators! We are to be guided by His Holy Spirt, who shall guide us INTO ALL truth. John 16:13. See also Isa. 55:8-9.
Don't forget, that among the Wheat, are the Tares!!
They look christian and sound christian, but they are "none of His" Rom. 8:9.
Not all men have the Holy Spirit of God, and many of those who do not are IN CHURCH leadership positions, appearing as servants of the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

Oh, trust me, you ain't hurtin my feelings, but I think it's you who needs to understand that facts don't care about feelings

Let's get beyond grammar punctuation, shall we!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I have been speaking about that on this thread.
Please read the KJV only.
2 Thes. Ch. 2 is to be read in the plural, just as we read and understand that the words "the natural man" is read and understood in the plural.
The context of 2 Thes. 2 is in the plural.
"The natural man" (the unsaved man) is "that man of sin, the son of perdition".
See also 1Cor. 2:14

But there is also the matter of the Antichrist and the False Prophet being tossed "alive" into the Lake of Fire. He is referred to as "him" in Revelation 13:4 and "he" in 13:5. Hard to read that any other way than that they are living (singular) human beings, invested with Satanic power. The Ten Horns (kings) of the Fourth Beast (Daniel 7:7) correspond to the Ten Kings of Revelation, three of whom are removed in both visions to make room for the Antichrist.

 

[Earburner]

The KJV is loaded with errors been written in archaic English. Cults and false doctrines love it
The cause is so difficult to understand and they can spin the meaning to whatever they want and become the arbitrators of what the bible says.

The NIV and NASB are superior in accuracy and readability.

Really? The KJV is translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text.
ALL the newer bibles of today (NIV, NASB), are translated from the Westcott and Hort Greek text, including the JW bible.
Are you saying that the JW bible is more accurate than the KJV?

 

[Phoneman777]

1&2- AE of the Hellenistic Seleucid Empire is most assuredly the little horn.

Antiochus the Chump could never in a million years be considered to be greater than Alex the Great.

The antecedant of the masculine pronoun "them" in "out of one of them came forth a little horn" cannot be the noun "horns" because "horns" is feminine - while "winds" is used as a masculine noun. While it's true that "ones" is a feminine noun, it is in no shape or form the antecedent of the pronoun "them" - it is "winds". Therefore, the little horn does not rise up out of the horn of Seleucid, it arise from "the four winds" of the compass, which is PROOF positive that it ain't talking about Antiochus the Chump.

The 3rd Beast began with Alex the Great, and ended with the 4 horns

Yes, the four horns were conquered by the Little Horn which was Rome in "the latter time of their kingdom", after which they continued to rule but only by ultimate authority of the Caesars. You're confusing anything-but-exceeding great Antiochus the Chump with the "exceeding great" Roman Empire which is herein depicted in both Pagan and Papal phases.

You end remarks are only conclusive to your " religious" denominational persuasion. By a long shot, you are not reading deep enough.

As if no other Protestant church has ever interpreted the Little Horn as I do. Your problem is that you are ignorant of Protestant church history, what the Reformers taught, why they taught it. Before you attack Protestant Historicism with your Jesuit Futurist ideas, you should probably acquaint yourself with it, agreed?

Did you know that the books of Maccabees go hand in hand with Daniel, more than Rev.?

So, two books not inspired by the Holy Spirit are to be considered more integral to eschatology than the Book of Revelation? Got it.

Both Winds and Horns are symbolic of the "Four Generals" of Alex the Great.

Wrong, Daniel didn't say four winds came out of the He-goat - unless I missed something about a goat burp, a goat sneeze, and two goat farts. "Four Winds" is a Biblically established symbol for the "four directions of the compass" to which the horns arose.

"Exceeding great" ? Yes, let's look at that, and how the churches have messed that up badly.
KJV-Dan.8[9] And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. Please notice the word "waxed" . In the context of that verse, Antiochus Epiphanes desired to exceed in being great, toward...He never reached his goal in being famous. However, as becoming infamous, he was, by committing the "AoD".

Daniel says NOTHING about "desiring to be great" - he says it "waxed exceeding great" or "became exceeding great". Why do you subscribe to an interpretation which demands we "add to" Scripture that which is not there? And if you think the AoD is that pig on the altar, need I remind you that Rome didn't cast dead pigs on the altar, they cast DEAD JEWISH BODIES on that altar. The AoD happenend in 70 A.D., not in the time of the Chump, and is why Jesus everyone to watch for it for when it comes to pass.

Rev. has little to do with Daniel.

And this belief of yours is why you'll never arrive at eschatological spiritual enlightenment, but only the compounded delusion of your beloved Jesuit Futurism

 

[Earburner]

But there is also the matter of the Antichrist and the False Prophet being tossed "alive" into the Lake of Fire. He is referred to as "him" in Revelation 13:4 and "he" in 13:5. Hard to read that any other way than that they are living (singular) human beings, invested with Satanic power. The Ten Horns (kings) of the Fourth Beast (Daniel 7:7) correspond to the Ten Kings of Revelation, three of whom are removed in both visions to make room for the Antichrist.

The beasts in Daniel are spoken of in the masculine gender also, and they were empires. Dan. 8:21. That's your clue! Empires are masculine and never feminine.
Again, there is NO "THE" Antichrist to come.
The False Prophet is the 2H lamb like beast, which is the USA (Empire) Rev. 13:11.
Yes, the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan. are the 10 horns of the beast in Rev., and they will be in the very end, as the 10 countries of Europe.
The 4th Beast of the Roman Empire dispersed into Europe. The 10 horns shall be revealed in the very end, just before Christ returns. They are also symbolized as the 10 toes of iron/clay in Dan. 2:41-45.
All of that kingdom of the 4th beast has been a progression of evolving and transforming down through the years. WE ARE in the period of the ten toes.

 

[CoreIssue]

Really? The KJV is translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text.
ALL the newer bibles of today (NIV, NASB), are translated from the Westcott and Hort Greek text, including the JW bible.
Are you saying that the JW bible is more accurate than the KJV?

Erasmus, at a catholic, wrote the Textus Receptus.

It was an ancient bible version, not new revelation from God.

The Wylif bible was written 200 years earlier and is in use.

I am saying you're not telling the truth.

I listened to the linguists on the translations. The (NIV, NASB) is more accurate than the KJV and the NWT doesn't even qualify as a bible.

 

[Earburner]

Antiochus the Chump could never in a million years be considered to be greater than Alex the Great.

The antecedant of the masculine pronoun "them" in "out of one of them came forth a little horn" cannot be the noun "horns" because "horns" is feminine - while "winds" is used as a masculine noun. While it's true that "ones" is a feminine noun, it is in no shape or form the antecedent of the pronoun "them" - it is "winds". Therefore, the little horn does not rise up out of the horn of Seleucid, it arise from "the four winds" of the compass, which is PROOF positive that it ain't talking about Antiochus the Chump. Yes, the four horns were conquered by the Little Horn which was Rome in "the latter time of their kingdom", after which they continued to rule but only by ultimate authority of the Caesars. You're confusing anything-but-exceeding great Antiochus the Chump with the "exceeding great" Roman Empire which is herein depicted in both Pagan and Papal phases. As if no other Protestant church has ever interpreted the Little Horn as I do. Your problem is that you are ignorant of Protestant church history, what the Reformers taught, why they taught it. Before you attack Protestant Historicism with your Jesuit Futurist ideas, you should probably acquaint yourself with it, agreed? So, two books not inspired by the Holy Spirit are to be considered more integral to eschatology than the Book of Revelation? Got it. Wrong, Daniel didn't say four winds came out of the He-goat - unless I missed something about a goat burp, a goat sneeze, and two goat farts. "Four Winds" is a Biblically established symbol for the "four directions of the compass" to which the horns arose. Daniel says NOTHING about "desiring to be great" - he says it "waxed exceeding great" or "became exceeding great". Why do you subscribe to an interpretation which demands we "add to" Scripture that which is not there? And if you think the AoD is that pig on the altar, need I remind you that Rome didn't cast dead pigs on the altar, they cast DEAD JEWISH BODIES on that altar. The AoD happenend in 70 A.D., not in the time of the Chump, and is why Jesus everyone to watch for it for when it comes to pass.
And this belief of yours is why you'll never arrive at eschatological spiritual enlightenment, but only the compounded delusion of your beloved Jesuit Futurism

The beasts in Daniel are spoken of in the masculine gender also, and they were empires. Dan. 8:21. That's your clue! Empires are masculine and never feminine.
Again, there is NO "THE" Antichrist to come.
The False Prophet is the 2H lamb like beast, which is the USA (Empire) Rev. 13:11.
Yes, the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan. are the 10 horns of the beast in Rev., and they will be in the very end, as the 10 countries of Europe.
The 4th Beast of the Roman Empire dispersed into Europe. The 10 horns shall be revealed in the very end, just before Christ returns. They are also symbolized as the 10 toes of iron/clay in Dan. 2:41-45.
All of that kingdom of the 4th beast has been a progression of evolving and transforming down through the years. WE ARE in the period of the ten toes.

The word "waxed" in the Strong's KJV is "behave(d) of self" . See #1980. In that verse it reads "waxed exceeding great".
IOWS, he behaved himself to exceed greatness.
Which is to also say, that Antiochus Epiphanes desired to exceed greatness.
Please notice that the word is NOT "exceedingly".

 

[Phoneman777]

Judas is an interesting case. Just before he "went out into the night" (a word picture) it was said that "Satan entered him". Since the Holy Spirit does not inhabit the same space with evil spirits, it is unlikely that Judas was ever truly a believer. We have clues throughout the NT that he was not.

He certainly wasn't performing miracles by the power of Satan alongside of them that had the Holy Spirit, right? Jesus said He didn't lose anyone "except" the one He lost: Judas. That means he was at one time not lost, right?

 

[Earburner]

Erasmus, at a catholic, wrote the Textus Receptus.

It was an ancient bible version, not new revelation from God.

The Wylif bible was written 200 years earlier and is in use.

I am saying you're not telling the truth.

I listened to the linguists on the translations. The (NIV, NASB) is more accurate than the KJV and the NWT doesn't even qualify as a bible.

So are you saying that you do select the JW bible over the KJV?
Yes, please continue listening to the "scholarly learned religious" (aka Pharisees) and ignore what God says in Isa. 55:8-9; John 16:13.

 

[Earburner]

Lady Crosstalk said: ↑
Judas is an interesting case. Just before he "went out into the night" (a word picture) it was said that "Satan entered him". Since the Holy Spirit does not inhabit the same space with evil spirits, it is unlikely that Judas was ever truly a believer. We have clues throughout the NT that he was not.
> Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit at that time either!
How was he saved and Judas was not?
I just recently explained. See Rom. 8:9

 

[Phoneman777]

You misunderstand. No one is born with eternal life or existence of any kind.
Rom. 8:9 says plainly that "whosoever hath not the Spirit of God, aka the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, he is none of His."
Judas died BEFORE the Day of Pentecost.
On the other hand, Peter didn't die, but lived on and upto the Day of Pentecost, and received the Holy Spirit of God. Simply put, Judas died without faith, and was not available in order to receive the Holy Spirit.
Read Rom. 8:9 again and understand that whosoever IS NOT born again by His Holy Spirit, shall NOT enter into the KoG. John 3:3-8.
Therefore, everyone who also dies without the Holy Spirit, they are "none of His".

I misunderstand that Jesus said He didn't lose anyone "except the son of perdition"? Sounds like He lost someone that was previously not lost, and I'm sure Judas had noble intentions at first and wanted to follow Jesus, but his carnal nature got the best of him.