The Doctrine of Millennialism is destroy by Personal Symbolizing of Scripture.

[robert derrick]

• For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?

None that you acknowledge or agree with or not symbolize away, when given.

I.e. not because they are plainly there, but because they are taken plainly by you.

• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.

No one says it doesn't.

I.e. reading into the words of others a false doctrine never stated.

• They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.

Once again, false reading into the words of others.

Ezekiel has parts of the OT law of Moses and sacrifices of priesthood, not all.

• Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth.

This is true. However not elevated above any nation pertaining to the Lord's rule and judgment over the earth, but only in priestly duties to Him personally and location of His throne.

• But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.

Obviously, the only Scriptures of the Bible not symbolized away are in Rev 20, which is therefore only chapter accepted by some for millennial doctrine.

I was joking, but now I don't think so. I believe you really do think the only Scriptures speaking of the Lord's return and reign is in Rev 20.

However, that does make sense, since it's the only place not symbolized into nothing meaningful.

• They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.

The rulers and the ruled always interact, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.

All the good will be interacting the the rulers properly and lawfully.

• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'.

This is a twofold misshaping of what is taught by Scripture, and what is said by those teaching it.

It's also makes a mockery of any rule of the Lord and His resurrected saints over all the earth.

And finally, it's the self-righteous judgment of all other people, that do not agree with and join them, even as the Pharisees that wash themselves after having contact with a Gentile.

Ye know not what spirit ye are of.

• If there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ in some supposed future millennium, and if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season as Revelation 20 states, then there must be another rapture and glorification in order to rescue them from the regeneration or replacement of this current earth.

You are no longer speaking of natural sheep being ruled over by the Lord, but of any becoming saved by grace through faith, to not only obey the law outwardly, but to do so righteously in spiritual purity.

I.e. has nothing to do with them being ruled over in the first place.

It also skips that part about all the dead of the old earth being judged to be found in the Lamb's book of life or not.

Conclusion:
1 case of saying something doesn't exist, because someone says it doesn't. (The tree did still fall in the woods.)
3 case of perverting what others say.
1 case of getting what others say right.
1 case of getting their own favorite Chapter wrong, to ask a fraudulent question.

Not too good.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not entertaining hope that you will accept any of my arguments, brother. You have an argumentative spirit. You're incorrigible, as far as I'm concerned.

If not, then show me typical instances in which you agree with me? If we are both Christians why is there not this typical spirit of agreement, and brotherly relationship? It is because you've chosen to entertain yourself as "clever." Many people in anonymous circumstances on the internet love to get attention by posing themselves as "superior."

I only say this because it's how you come across to me. The moment you stop giving me cheap quips and "no, it's not," without any substantial exchange of ideas, then I'll accept you as sincere and Christian in your approach.

My sense of "proper interpretation" is obviously a legitimate question. But this is how you respond! There is no "meat" in your response--just a sense that you have some kind of esoteric understanding that should be known by all.

To simply insult my posts and then claim Rev 20 is "100% spiritual" is meaningless at best, and corrosive of the meaning at worst. Christ himself is "100% spiritual" and yet had a human nature of flesh, as well.

Things "spiritual" and things" material are not at odds, are not diametrically opposed to one another. They are not mutually incompatible. Rev 20 can be "100% spiritual" without sacrificing it's literal meaning of "1000 years!"

Saying something is "100% spiritual," therefore, solves nothing in this matter. What really matters is the context, because it determines whether "1000 years" should be taken literally or not.

The lack of any sense that "thousand" is being used as a "saying" indicates it should *not* be taken as a "saying." There should be no reference made by anybody to the use of "thousand" in places in Scripture where "thousand" is used as a "saying." What matters is the immediate context for use of the word "thousand." That is a good point, and you've chosen to ignore it.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[robert derrick]

Time for you to read WPM’s replies to you slowly and thoughtfully.

No thanks.

I'm not impressed by long-winded dissertation and scholarly verbiage.

I only browse for anything worth responding to and move on.

Which is getting less and less, since I don't repeat myself, nor endure ongoing mantras.

 

[WPM]

None that you acknowledge or agree with or not symbolize away, when given.

I.e. not because they are plainly there, but because they are taken plainly by you.

Your failure to provide hard Scripture is obviously an admission that it is a man-made invention.

No one says it doesn't.

I.e. reading into the words of others a false doctrine never stated.

So, you are admitting my assertion was right.

Once again, false reading into the words of others.

Ezekiel has parts of the OT law of Moses and sacrifices of priesthood, not all.

What is different from the old covenant and your so-called new old covenant arrangement in your supposed future millennium? Why do you need further sin offerings? Is the cross not enough for you?

This is true. However not elevated above any nation pertaining to the Lord's rule and judgment over the earth, but only in priestly duties to Him personally and location of His throne.

So, you are admitting my assertion was right.

Obviously, the only Scriptures of the Bible not symbolized away are in Rev 20, which is therefore only chapter accepted by some for millennial doctrine.

I was joking, but now I don't think so. I believe you really do think the only Scriptures speaking of the Lord's return and reign is in Rev 20.

However, that does make sense, since it's the only place not symbolized into nothing meaningful.

It is Premil that is obsessed with Rev 20. Amil uses the full gamut of Scripture. You have nothing else to support your imaginary future period. What is more, Rev 20 does not say what you claim. You force it upon the text.

The rulers and the ruled always interact, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.

All the good will be interacting the the rulers properly and lawfully.

Hello! Where is this in the Book, the Bible, not your Left Behind novels. So, you are admitting my assertion was right.

This is a twofold misshaping of what is taught by Scripture, and what is said by those teaching it.

It's also makes a mockery of any rule of the Lord and His resurrected saints over all the earth.

And finally, it's the self-righteous judgment of all other people, that do not agree with and join them, even as the Pharisees that wash themselves after having contact with a Gentile.

Ye know not what spirit ye are of.

Do the wicked overrun your millennium - yes or no? The answer is yes!

You are no longer speaking of natural sheep being ruled over by the Lord, but of any becoming saved by grace through faith, to not only obey the law outwardly, but to do so righteously in spiritual purity.

I.e. has nothing to do with them being ruled over in the first place.

It also skips that part about all the dead of the old earth being judged to be found in the Lamb's book of life or not.

You are avoiding what I wrote. If there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ in some supposed future millennium, and if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season as Revelation 20 states, then there must be another rapture and glorification in order to rescue them from the regeneration or replacement of this current earth.

Conclusion:
1 case of saying something doesn't exist, because someone says it doesn't. (The tree did still fall in the woods.)
3 case of perverting what others say.
1 case of getting what others say right.
1 case of getting their own favorite Chapter wrong, to ask a fraudulent question.

Not too good.

Your math is as bad as your theology. Check the facts above.

 

[WPM]

No thanks.

I'm not impressed by long-winded dissertation and scholarly verbiage.

I only browse for anything worth responding to and move on.

Which is getting less and less, since I don't repeat myself, nor endure ongoing mantras.

Why not admit, what we can all see: you are way out of your depth on this subject? You cannot deal with simple Scriptures and you cannot address the simple arguments of those who rebut your faulty arguments. All you can do is avoid and insult. That is because Premil enjoys zero corroboration for their opinion of Rev 20.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You show a complete inability to understand that I have just refuted this argument. You quote a simile using "thousand" to Rev 20 which does *not* use "thousand* as such. It is an illegitimate interpretation.

The argument that "spirituality" infers "not time" is false. All of God's time is spiritual, and it is measured on earth in our time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I will continue to expose you willful error, you disregard the truth when presented, choosing your pre-determined agenda in its replacement

You never expose anything I write, because there are no real arguments you present to expose it. You simply say, "No it isn't." Your disagreement does not constitute an exposé

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why not admit, what we can all see: you are way out of your depth on this subject? You cannot deal with simple Scriptures and you cannot address the simple arguments of those who rebut your faulty arguments. All you can do is avoid and insult. That is because Premil enjoys zero corroboration for their opinion of Rev 20.

"We can ALL see?" Do you think you represent everybody on this forum? This is what I've heard from you for years, which is why I have no interest in discussing anything with you. I only have need to expose you for what you are--divisive, arrogant, and abusive in your rhetoric.

When you refer to respectable Christians who disagree with you as "out of their depth," simply because they disagree with you, you are acting abrasive. I'd be happy to discuss any subject with you, but who would want to if you treat them like this?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Time for you to read WPM’s replies to you slowly and thoughtfully.

Why do you "suck up" to an abusive Christian like WPM? Anybody who disagrees with him he claims is "out of their depth," and arrogantly claims "all can see his truth" when it is only *his followers* that can "see" his truth? I've had a few exchanges with him for years now on these forums, and nothing remotely Christian-like comes from his posts when someone disagrees with him. He claims so, but they must be extremely rare.

If you support this kind of rhetoric, you're as bad as he is. Stop being a "follower" of WPM, and continue to be a follower of the Lord. Then you'll have my full support, Amlll or not.

I have yet to see any substantial refutation to Premill as I've recently presented it. Where is your refutation, as opposed to "just listen to WPM?" Amill is strong only because it has two thousand years of Church history behind it. There are, incidentally, 2000 years of Christian errors, as well, as as the glorification of Mary and Catholic Tradition indicates.

Amill got started only because Israel seemed to have failed for good. But today it's clear that Israel is turning around as a nation, and now is in position to be rebuilt at the Coming of the Lord.

But Amill's biblical basis is incredibly weak, which is why Premill is the 1st position held strongly in the Church. It was based on a literal belief in the promises God made to Abraham concerning Israel and the nations, which has yet to be fulfilled. It is based on the very real prophecies that indicate a Kingdom Age has yet to come, a Messianic Age which will be a golden age for Israel and for the nations.

But all this went away because it didn't look like it was going to happen, and the Catholic Church decided it would assume Israel's role and become the present Kingdom of God, or the "Millennial Age." The biblical claim for disposing of the Millennium as symbolism, however, had no basis for it. It just seemed the only alternative at the time, in view of Origen's symbolic system of interpretation, later adopted by Augustine.

The idea of allegorizing the Millennium in Rev 20 could be done if the context warranted it. It is argued that elsewhere in the Bible the word "thousand" is associated with hyperbole, sayings, and similes. But in the case of Rev 20 there is no such use of the word "thousand" as a metaphor, parable, or simile.

Hence, Amill has no real biblical basis for it. It is simply Replacement Theology, which flies in the fact of what Paul taught about national Israel in Rom 9-11.

 

[Keraz]

Timothy 3:1-17 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful, arrogant and abusive. Disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will be uncontrolled in their violence, hating all goodness, perfidious, foolhardy and self important. They will love their pleasures more than their God. While preserving the outward form of religion, actually, they deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Persecution will indeed come to everyone who wants to lead a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus, while evil doers and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But for your part, stand by the truths you have learned and are assured of, because you are familiar with the Holy scriptures which have the power to make you wise and lead you into salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth, refuting error and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be capable and equipped for good works of every kind.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

For the time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will follow his own ideas and will gather crowds to hear whatever they fancy. They will stop their ears to the truth and turn aside to myths.
But, you must keep your head whatever happens; put up with hardship, work to spread the gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling.

1 Timothy 1:3-11 I asked you, Timothy, to instruct certain people to refrain from teaching erroneous doctrines and devoting themselves to interminable myths and fruitless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculations that do nothing to further God’s plan for humans, that works through faith in Him. The goal of this Command is love, which comes from a pure heart, a good conscience and a genuine faith. Through a lack of these attributes, some have gone astray into a plethora of theories and false notions. They set out to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or the true meaning of the Word.

We all know the Law is a good thing, if it is used properly, it’s there not just for the righteous, but is necessary for the lawless and sinful, the godless and worldly, the murderers and fornicators, perverts, liars, perjurers, in fact all whose behaviour flouts the glorious Gospel of God.



The end of this era, will be a time of turmoil, Paul may be referring to the Tribulation period, but we have for the last 100 years experienced many wars and disasters. Matthew 24:6-8
As Jesus said: there will be incremental, worsening 'labor pangs' before the new era. Matthew 24:6-8

Persecution will come to everyone who follows Jesus, Hebrews 12:8 This totally refutes any ‘pre-trib/wrath rapture to heaven’. 1 Peter 4:12 However, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

While preserving the outward form of religion, they deny its power. Many, so called Christian Churches have deviated so far from the true Gospel, they are no longer a Church of God. Isaiah 58, Jude 1-25, Revelation 3:14-22

The time has come when people refuse sound teaching, they believe false theories, symbolise, allegorise or place Bible prophecy into past history, so have no proper understanding of what will happen soon. Isaiah 29:13-14, Isaiah 30:8-11

False teachers are more prevalent than ever, promoting their erroneous doctrines. Ministries, TV shows, books, etc, on the end times are a big business. Their judgement is coming: false teachers will all meet their end on the Lord's Day of wrath. Jeremiah14:13-16, Isaiah 56:9-12

 

[robert derrick]

We know from repeated Scripture there are only two peoples on the earth – those whose names are written in the book of life (the redeemed Church throughout time) and those whose names are not written in the book of life (the Christ-rejecting world).

Which will be decided for all the dead at the great white throne.

Those that withhold their veneration of this evil beast are assuredly the elect of God – those chosen from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, Titus 1:1-2, II Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9). The beast’s disciples include everyone else – that great number of Christ-rejecters on the broad road to destruction “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Since it is not proven the judgement of sheep and goats, is between the saints and sinners, then it is not the final judgment of all the dead and the Lamb's book of life.

And those sheep aren't at the judgment seat of Christ, with their ministerial works being judged, because they don't even know why they are there, nor why they are judged favorably.

Saints are not ignorant of the righteous judgment of God, nor of His commandments to love Him and our neighbors, because we are already knowingly doing so, by personally knowing the righteous Judge and God of all the earth.

Revelation 17:8 parallels this, saying, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo or admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

This text makes clear that the beast attracts the affections of all the non-elect. All “that dwell on the earth” admire or marvel at the beast “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” The language here is pretty water-tight.

And once again, you assume a reading that is not there, based upon what you want to see written there.

The Scripture does not say all them dwelling on the earth, will wonder and worship the beast, but only speaks of them that dwell on the earth, that do wonder and worship the beast. They are them that will not be written in the Lamb's book of life.

That will include them of the armies gathered together at Armageddon against the Lamb, and them goats they did not go to battle under the beast.

Not every cult-follower follows through with the final call of the cult-leader.

Not all believing Jim Jones went to Guyana with him.

The rest of the dwellers who were not with the armies, nor with the goats, neither in delusional spirit nor in evil works, will be them natural sheep ruled by the Lord and His saints on earth.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

One Scripture still stands against all abundance of scholarly arguments against it.

The passage is written from God’s eternal aspect and depicts both the eternally righteous and the eternally damned –

At the great white throne judgment, yes. Which is after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, and the scorching of the earth with Gog and Magog, which surround the beloved city, which is not Armageddon.

 

[robert derrick]

those who finally yield themselves to the world in reprobation and are therefore eternally doomed.

True. Of all those dwelling on the earth, that do so, are damned.

The claim of a world wide reprobation of giant evil-doers, is false.

You then use it to condemn any natural sheep living on earth during the Lord's reign.

There were six saved from the flood, and of them only Noah was declared righteous and found grace with God, and of them one was a devil and cursed goat.

Not being a believer does not make a certain reprobate evil doer.

The lost consist of those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is the only two groups that have ever existed on this earth.

False, that will be the only two groups at the final judgment.

But on earth, there have been many that do not name the name of Christ, yet are not also evil-doers persecuting the saints, but did good to the people of God, which included Pharaoh's daughter saving Moses, and were honored as such by God in Scripture, which included Moses' father in law.

This can only refer to the full amount of those among the wicked that stubbornly refuse to bow their knee to Christ in this current life.

You need to go ahead and say plainly, that every person on earth now, that is not a believing Christian, is a reprobate evil-doer with no meekness nor neighborliness.

Otherwise, your portrayal of all them on the earth during the reign of the last beast is false, including them still alive after the slaughter at Armageddon.

Afterall, the earth already has many antichrist beasts coming, since the days of the apostles.

Revelation 13:16-17 underpins the all-encompassing nature of the beast’s army, saying, “he (the false prophet) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Once again, this speaks of all them on the earth, that do receive his mark.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Once again, it is only them that are deceived with strong delusion and are damned, which also includes many of them naming the name of Christ.

Not all them dwelling on earth are decieved by the beast, even as not all them naming the name of Christ are overcome by the beast and deny Jesus by works of the flesh.

Everyone on earth that is not written in the book of life is required to submit to the beast’s authority. When we look at the detailed description of the beast in Revelation (including his image and his mark),

Once again, an unproven statement of your own.

And even them that are required to submit by governmental authority, are not all necessarily decieved by him, nor making war with the saints, nor killing them bodily.

It was not the case under the Caesars, where many loyal Romans also had compassion on Christians during time of persecution, and without proof otherwise, it will be the same under the last antichrist beast, that will rule of much of the earth as a final spiritually god-like Caesar.

This interpretation of the beast perfectly aligns with the character and great influence of “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” “that mystery of iniquity” also known as “that Wicked” (in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12). In fact every single unregenerate gives allegiance to this evil spirit. This spirit operates “with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

True. The delusion has been, is, and shall be strong, but not all on earth are decieved by it, nor are made mad with wrath against God and His people by it. That includes non-Christians.

Plainly, if one isn’t in the Church they are in the world; if they aren’t in the world they are in the Church.

True, but not all them naturally of the world, are beast-loving reprobates without any affection for their neighbors, including non Christians.

If you think that every non-Christian on earth is an evil reprobate with no good intention whatsoever, then say so.

Otherwise, it will not be the case under the final antichrist beast, since it was not in the beginning at Jerusalem, nor under the Caesars, nor today, nor tomorrow under the last beast.

The beast is simply speaking of the energy or spirit behind Satan’s overall evil kingdom/empire on this earth over the centuries. It refers to that wicked system of influence that opposes God and everything He represents and commands. It finds its origins right back in the Garden of Eden when Satan first attempted to abort the will of God at the beginning and foist his blueprint upon mankind. This kingdom is captivated and controlled by the spirit of antichrist and represents everything that is contrary to the plan, purpose and will of God for mankind.

False, you once again make symbol of a real person, rather than stick with the symbology of his title.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The last antichrist beast will be a natural born person, just like all the antichrists that have come, who believe and follow and teach by the spirit of antichrist.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There is the spirit of antichrist, and there are the antichrists that reject Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, and make themselves false christs coming in their own flesh and blood.

The beast from the sea and from the earth, will simply be the last antichrist and false prophet allowed to make war and have rule on the earth.

And no doubt, you make the false teacher and prophet only a symbol, because then you would have to prove a truly world-wide empire of one man over all the earth.

And that is not at all true, because the prophesied kingdom of that last beast is not worldwide at all, but is only confined to certain 10 kings with powers of their own kingdoms.

These are they that will have power and kingdom with the beast one at a time, and in the end will give themselves with one mind, to make war with the Lamb and His resurrected saints in the air.

There will be no world wide rule of the last antichrist, nor will all them on earth receive His mark, nor will all inhabitants of the earth gather at Armageddon, nor will all them remaining be goats fit for execution.

You confuse the clear-cut light or darkness judgement for the body of Christ, with the merciful and compassionate judgement of the victorious King on earth, who will rule of the sheep only, after killing off all the goats.

 

[robert derrick]

Why are you sooo vicious and full of ad hominem? Can you not communicate like a Christian?

There are those children who declare they are being persecuted for not agreeing with them and joining them.

Now we have those who think it is vicious not to be agreed with.

Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The whole Bible has times of symbolism, allegory, and parable.

The book of Revelation is not the book of Symbols.

God – Christ – Angel – (signified or symbolised) – John

Once again. The great symbolizers of our time, supposing to decide what is real or just symbol.

The Greek word interpreted ‘signified’, in this key introductory verse of Revelation, is semaino (Strong’s 4591), which actually means to signify or sign-i-fy. This word is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Great, now a scholarly dissertation about the word symbol.

There's the Bible of Scripture, and then there's the Symbolic Bible of men.

Premillennial-literalists try to water down the symbolic meaning of the word semaino as its proper reading destroys the whole way of how they approach Revelation.

Now this is cute. The one making nothing real, by make it symbol only, accuses those of taking God at His real word, of watering down the symbols.

That is just great. Truly, truly, that's a hoot, of the sophistic sort.

Just call me a semaino denier. I am anti-semaino. That's probably worse than an anti-dentite.

The book of Revelation is manifestly a book written in sign language.

Oh, so the Indians wrote it.

Your Symbolic Bible has as much worth as their natural theology.

At least there's is not making the Bible full of myths, and it's more interesting than your myth-making too.

Its number and images are visionary and are advanced to describe spiritual truths that are found elsewhere in Scripture.

Reminds me of Grandpa in the first scene of National Treasure.

Are you wiggling your fingers around too?

 

[robert derrick]

No one becomes a sheep by being good. There is none good. Hello! That is a false gospel. Salvation is by grace through faith. That is how someone becomes a sheep. You don't even understand what a child of God is and you want to lecture the rest of us. Get back to basics. Find out what salvation is then we can move forward.

I thought you were OSAS, and now you're talking like them.

You quote the Scripture, that God judged for all them that say there is no God, not for all men on earth, especially not for the saints.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

It's a favorite abused Scripture, quoted by the self-righteous with faith alone, who use being born with sin nature as an excuse to continue sinning. It's all falsely used by the self-righteous judges against all men, women, and children as being evil-doing devils, that can't do anything good, even when doing something kind and charitable from the heart.

Mankind is either sheep or goats - saved or lost.

And none are saved by faith alone, which can save no man at all.

I've asked you before, O most mighty of judges, and I ask you again: Are you still doing unrighteous works of the flesh, as the unsaved? Or are you doing the righteousness of God as the saints in Christ Jesus?

The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

They are those that do His will and obey Him unto the end.

Faith alone has words alone only: It's purely symbolic.

How about that. A great symbolizer of Scripture, does so by his own symbolic faith alone.

The Symbol Man's Bible for symbolic salvation by faith alone.

 

[WPM]

Which will be decided for all the dead at the great white throne.


Since it is not proven the judgement of sheep and goats, is between the saints and sinners, then it is not the final judgment of all the dead and the Lamb's book of life.

And those sheep aren't at the judgment seat of Christ, with their ministerial works being judged, because they don't even know why they are there, nor why they are judged favorably.

Saints are not ignorant of the righteous judgment of God, nor of His commandments to love Him and our neighbors, because we are already knowingly doing so, by personally knowing the righteous Judge and God of all the earth.



And once again, you assume a reading that is not there, based upon what you want to see written there.

The Scripture does not say all them dwelling on the earth, will wonder and worship the beast, but only speaks of them that dwell on the earth, that do wonder and worship the beast. They are them that will not be written in the Lamb's book of life.

That will include them of the armies gathered together at Armageddon against the Lamb, and them goats they did not go to battle under the beast.

Not every cult-follower follows through with the final call of the cult-leader.

Not all believing Jim Jones went to Guyana with him.

The rest of the dwellers who were not with the armies, nor with the goats, neither in delusional spirit nor in evil works, will be them natural sheep ruled by the Lord and His saints on earth.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

One Scripture still stands against all abundance of scholarly arguments against it.



At the great white throne judgment, yes. Which is after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, and the scorching of the earth with Gog and Magog, which surround the beloved city, which is not Armageddon.

I refer you back to the post you reference but which you ignored in every single point. It refutes your claims.

There only is one future resurrection and judgment. You can try and invent what Scripture knows nothing about, but it means nothing. You have already been shown the biblical evidence and you have already rejected that, preferring your Pretrib teachers. The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention. For there to be one general judgment then Scripture must also teach one general resurrection. This, I believe, Scripture does in various places.

The end of Rev 20 depicts the second coming and the general resurrection / judgment.

Where are your 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?
Where are your 2 judgment days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?

I will not hold my breath!

 

[robert derrick]

Then you will also have to accept reincarnation:

Matthew 17:11–13
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and qrestore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That pElias is come already, and they knew him not, but rhave done unto him whatsoever they slisted. Likewise shall also tthe Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood pthat he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Is this only symbolic now? What makes this passage, a direct proclamation by Jesus, symbolic, but the flood literal?

Once again. Disingenuous debate is filled with misstating the words of others, to appear ridiculous.

I don't know anyone who has ever said there is no symbol, allegory, parable in the Bible, so that all things of Scripture are literal.

In either case - it is a major flaw of thinking to think that a symbol has less importance than matter. A symbol has MORE importance than matter because symbols come from the mind of God,

When symbol's are in the mind of God, then His word says so. And no Scripture of God is more important than any other Scripture of God.

It's the symbolizing from the mind of man, that makes Scripture nothing but symbolic only.

while matter is essentially just a structure formed from random particles and subject to decay. Ideals are eternal, Noah's ark will always exist but wood won't.

I'm not an idealist, and so I don't know what you are talking about.

I will agree that the truth of Scripture is more important than the words on paper.

However, without those words and paper, there is no truth of God known on earth.

 

[WPM]

True. Of all those dwelling on the earth, that do so, are damned.

The claim of a world wide reprobation of giant evil-doers, is false.

You then use it to condemn any natural sheep living on earth during the Lord's reign.

There were six saved from the flood, and of them only Noah was declared righteous and found grace with God, and of them one was a devil and cursed goat.

Not being a believer does not make a certain reprobate evil doer.



False, that will be the only two groups at the final judgment.

But on earth, there have been many that do not name the name of Christ, yet are not also evil-doers persecuting the saints, but did good to the people of God, which included Pharaoh's daughter saving Moses, and were honored as such by God in Scripture, which included Moses' father in law.


You need to go ahead and say plainly, that every person on earth now, that is not a believing Christian, is a reprobate evil-doer with no meekness nor neighborliness.

Otherwise, your portrayal of all them on the earth during the reign of the last beast is false, including them still alive after the slaughter at Armageddon.

Afterall, the earth already has many antichrist beasts coming, since the days of the apostles.



Once again, this speaks of all them on the earth, that do receive his mark.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Once again, it is only them that are deceived with strong delusion and are damned, which also includes many of them naming the name of Christ.

Not all them dwelling on earth are decieved by the beast, even as not all them naming the name of Christ are overcome by the beast and deny Jesus by works of the flesh.


Once again, an unproven statement of your own.

And even them that are required to submit by governmental authority, are not all necessarily decieved by him, nor making war with the saints, nor killing them bodily.

It was not the case under the Caesars, where many loyal Romans also had compassion on Christians during time of persecution, and without proof otherwise, it will be the same under the last antichrist beast, that will rule of much of the earth as a final spiritually god-like Caesar.


True. The delusion has been, is, and shall be strong, but not all on earth are decieved by it, nor are made mad with wrath against God and His people by it. That includes non-Christians.


True, but not all them naturally of the world, are beast-loving reprobates without any affection for their neighbors, including non Christians.

If you think that every non-Christian on earth is an evil reprobate with no good intention whatsoever, then say so.

Otherwise, it will not be the case under the final antichrist beast, since it was not in the beginning at Jerusalem, nor under the Caesars, nor today, nor tomorrow under the last beast.



False, you once again make symbol of a real person, rather than stick with the symbology of his title.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The last antichrist beast will be a natural born person, just like all the antichrists that have come, who believe and follow and teach by the spirit of antichrist.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There is the spirit of antichrist, and there are the antichrists that reject Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, and make themselves false christs coming in their own flesh and blood.

The beast from the sea and from the earth, will simply be the last antichrist and false prophet allowed to make war and have rule on the earth.

And no doubt, you make the false teacher and prophet only a symbol, because then you would have to prove a truly world-wide empire of one man over all the earth.

And that is not at all true, because the prophesied kingdom of that last beast is not worldwide at all, but is only confined to certain 10 kings with powers of their own kingdoms.

These are they that will have power and kingdom with the beast one at a time, and in the end will give themselves with one mind, to make war with the Lamb and His resurrected saints in the air.

There will be no world wide rule of the last antichrist, nor will all them on earth receive His mark, nor will all inhabitants of the earth gather at Armageddon, nor will all them remaining be goats fit for execution.

You confuse the clear-cut light or darkness judgement for the body of Christ, with the merciful and compassionate judgement of the victorious King on earth, who will rule of the sheep only, after killing off all the goats.

Not so. The evidence forbids your teaching. You are sidestepping the obvious. Those who refuse to bow the knee to Christ take the mark. Because of that they end up damned for all eternity. Simple! Those who embrace Christ receive the Father's mark of ownership.

 

[robert derrick]

Reminder of what abuse looks like on this forum:

It's called abusing Scripture, and then accusing corrections of being sooo vicious.

What a hoot.

There only is one future resurrection and judgment.

Since there is a first resurrection, to be followed by the rest of the dead, then there is more than one future resurrection.

Unless you say the resurrection is already past, and overthrow the faith of some.

That no doubt is another foolish by-product of fanatic symbolizing of any unwanted pesky Scripture.

I will not hold my breath!

Please do. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[WPM]

There are those children who declare they are being persecuted for not agreeing with them and joining them.

Now we have those who think it is vicious not to be agreed with.

That is simply not the truth. It is the arrogance and viciousness of your words that are palatable. That is all you have. You cannot answer simple questions to support your error. You and Randy K are like twins in the way you insult.

I have learned, that when someone speaks of making "A careful study" of something, they are only diverting attention away from their glaring errors, with longwinded displays of scholarship. They also always include the learned words of great theological dissertation, such as passages, assumptions reinforced, holy bar of God, eternal sentences, mortal rebels, giftings, and unnecessary dives into original languages.

It is nothing but cover for missing the obvious, like swallowing camels while straining at gnats

I'm thinking one of the main reasons some people are so vehemently against the Lord and King reigning over His kingdom on earth, is that it's much more intellectually stimulating and fun to spend countless hours perfecting pseudo-scholarship, rather than just take Scripture as written and believe it.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

You pretend spiritual understanding with fanciful words only, not with Scriptural truth.

Scripture always proves itself, without any need whatsoever for the pseudo-science of man's scholarship. That is why the wise of this world despise the plain speech of the Bible.

incorporate that into your teaching, and it will be less of your own mindset and more by Scripture of truth.

Otherwise, You need to stick with learned scholars, that appreciate learned scholarship and endless disputes, that please the intellectual glands only.

For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.

You can treat Scripture like you want, according to your own personal faith and imagination, but I don't.

You want to pick and choose what is real in Scripture and what is not, solely by the pseudo 'discernment' of your own faith and imagination…

Your willful practice of making what Scripture is real or not to you, is entirely by your own faith and imagination. The only discipline to it, is your own desire to believe what you want.

Any objective reader can see you pick and choose what is real in Scripture and what is not, because they do not share in all your choices.

How about actually address the questions instead of your usual ad hominem and avoidance. This is a classic Premil trait. You have no answers to the truth of Amil, thus your continued frustration.

 

[WPM]

It's called abusing Scripture, and then accusing corrections of being sooo vicious.

What a hoot.



Since there is a first resurrection, to be followed by the rest of the dead, then there is more than one future resurrection.

Unless you say the resurrection is already past, and overthrow the faith of some.

That no doubt is another foolish by-product of fanatic symbolizing of any unwanted pesky Scripture.


Please do. I'll be back tomorrow.

Again, total avoidance. That is your MO. All i am seeing is private interpretation.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).