The final harvest?

[jeffweeder]

What is there to refute? If Lazarus was risen with a permanent incorruptible physical body, why is he not still physically alive? Perhaps you lack understanding of what a permanent incorruptible body is? The FACT that he long ago physically died proves you're somewhat confused. You do say the strangest things!

The last time I looked, the dead in Christ at the time of the Thessalonian Church, were raised at the Lords second coming with all the remaining living in Christ.

Its really strange to say it has already happened, as living are still waiting.



13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, believers, about those who are asleep [in death], so that you will not grieve [for them] as the others do who have no hope [beyond this present life]. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

 

[rwb]

The last time I looked, the dead in Christ at the time of the Thessalonian Church, were raised at the Lords second coming with all the remaining living in Christ.

Its really strange to say it has already happened, as living are still waiting.



13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, believers, about those who are asleep [in death], so that you will not grieve [for them] as the others do who have no hope [beyond this present life]. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Yeah, we begin to sound like a broken record! How many times must this fact be stated? None will be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

Hello PinSeeker.

Did anyone post that the OT redeemed are currently on earth?

If they had been physically resurrected immortal, they would be currently alive on this earth!

 

[Timtofly]

What is there to refute? If Lazarus was risen with a permanent incorruptible physical body, why is he not still physically alive? Perhaps you lack understanding of what a permanent incorruptible body is? The FACT that he long ago physically died proves you're somewhat confused. You do say the strangest things!

Because he is physically alive in Paradise. They all ascended with Jesus into Paradise. Paradise is that physical city that Abraham was looking for. That was gained at the Cross and ascension of Jesus to God.

Before Jesus ascended, He first descended and led them out of Abraham's bosom into Paradise. Yes Lazarus physically died. Four days later, he physically arose with permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus had a physical body at the resurrection. Yet you deny anyone else could have. You deny that Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life.

You claim Jesus is the "wait thousands of years and then stand before the GWT".

Paul did not say in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that any one had to wait thousands of years for a resurrection. Jesus pointed out that those in Christ would never die, period. All in Christ have a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, the instant their soul leaves Adam's dead flesh. That is not waiting in the grave in death. That is eternal life from that moment the soul leaves one physical body for the next physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

Its really strange to say it has already happened, as living are still waiting.

Your verse claims Jesus in a physical body brings with Him those also in a physical body. Only those alive on earth are in a state of death.

The word for no longer being on the earth is sleep. But there is no such thing as soul sleep. Paul also claims in 2 Corinthians 5:1 there is also a permanent incorruptible physical body for all, already with Jesus Christ, ie those He brings with Him at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

If they had been physically resurrected immortal, they would be currently alive on this earth!

Then why not apply that to Revelation 20:4-6?

You are not being consistent in your resurrection.

You claim those beheaded go to heaven, but never ever live on the earth. Now you claim all have to live on the earth. Can you make up which is which?

Do you not accept 2 Corinthians 5:1, the verse you all refuse to even acknowledge exists? There are no naked souls in Paradise.

They are not waiving palm leaves and serving God day and night in His Temple as naked souls. They have physical bodies and physical garments on.

Revelation 7:9-17.

 

[rwb]

Because he is physically alive in Paradise. They all ascended with Jesus into Paradise. Paradise is that physical city that Abraham was looking for. That was gained at the Cross and ascension of Jesus to God.

Man cannot ascend to heaven with Jesus in flesh & blood! (1Cor 15:50) Abraham was not looking for a physical city! (Heb 11:10-16)
You are correct in believing the Old Covenant saints are alive. But what you don't seem to understand is they are not physically resurrected to life, they are alive as spiritual body in heaven, which is why John calls them 'souls'. Wherever life is found, whether physical or spiritual, there is LIFE! If the Old Covenant saints are not now spiritually alive in heaven with Christ, then God would indeed be God of the dead! But He is not God of the dead, but of the living, and those who old who were of faith are now spiritually alive waiting until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete and then all the saints will be physically resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh, made alive again through their living eternal spirit that returns with Christ. (1Th 4:14)

Matthew 22:31-32 (KJV) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 20:37-38 (KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[rwb]

Then why not apply that to Revelation 20:4-6?

You are not being consistent in your resurrection.

You claim those beheaded go to heaven, but never ever live on the earth. Now you claim all have to live on the earth. Can you make up which is which?

Do you not accept 2 Corinthians 5:1, the verse you all refuse to even acknowledge exists? There are no naked souls in Paradise.

They are not waiving palm leaves and serving God day and night in His Temple as naked souls. They have physical bodies and physical garments on.

Revelation 7:9-17.

They are not physically alive after physical death! They are spiritually alive after physical death, because the life we receive when we are born again of His Spirit is spiritual life we receive in Christ, and that life is ETERNAL and can never die! That's what Christ means when He says whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. (Jo 11:26) So, death of our physical body is simply the moment when our spirit leaves our physical body ALIVE to ascend to heaven to be with Christ. (1Cor 15:44)

In 2Cor 5 Paul, speaking of those who have faith in Christ, while alive being clothed in bodies of flesh but longing to be clothed in bodies that are of heaven. That is, we long to be spiritual/celestial/heavenly body as Christ is. As long as our body is alive in mortal flesh & blood we are not with Christ in heaven, and as He is (spiritual). Because mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven. If you read the entire context we find Paul confirms this when he says:

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 (KJV) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When the physical body of a believer dies, we go to heaven as spiritual body of believers, and according to John even there we do not cease from singing praises and worshipping the Lord. Even the angels, the elders and the four beasts fall on their faces to worship God in heaven. Do you believe the material things described as being in heaven are literal, or are these things to be understood metaphorically?

Revelation 7:9-12 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Timtofly]

Man cannot ascend to heaven with Jesus in flesh & blood! (1Cor 15:50) Abraham was not looking for a physical city! (Heb 11:10-16)
You are correct in believing the Old Covenant saints are alive. But what you don't seem to understand is they are not physically resurrected to life, they are alive as spiritual body in heaven, which is why John calls them 'souls'. Wherever life is found, whether physical or spiritual, there is LIFE! If the Old Covenant saints are not now spiritually alive in heaven with Christ, then God would indeed be God of the dead! But He is not God of the dead, but of the living, and those who old who were of faith are now spiritually alive waiting until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete and then all the saints will be physically resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh, made alive again through their living eternal spirit that returns with Christ. (1Th 4:14)

Matthew 22:31-32 (KJV) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 20:37-38 (KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Still avoiding 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Paul wrote 2 Corinthians after all the verses you quoted were voiced by Jesus prior to His death and resurrection.

No one is saying Adam's dead corruptible flesh can enter Paradise. That is your own strawman argument.

 

[rwb]

Still avoiding 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Paul wrote 2 Corinthians after all the verses you quoted were voiced by Jesus prior to His death and resurrection.

No one is saying Adam's dead corruptible flesh can enter Paradise. That is your own strawman argument.

I showed you the context and explanation of what Paul says in 2Cor 5, but you don't want the context, perhaps because it blows your opinions???

Are you just trying to waste my time Tim? You repeatedly contradict yourself! Body of mortal flesh resides while alive on this earth, and spiritual body after physical death resides in heaven. As for Adam's dead corruptible flesh, I made no statement regarding????

 

[Timtofly]

They are not physically alive after physical death! They are spiritually alive after physical death, because the life we receive when we are born again of His Spirit is spiritual life we receive in Christ, and that life is ETERNAL and can never die! That's what Christ means when He says whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. (Jo 11:26) So, death of our physical body is simply the moment when our spirit leaves our physical body ALIVE to ascend to heaven to be with Christ. (1Cor 15:44)

In 2Cor 5 Paul, speaking of those who have faith in Christ, while alive being clothed in bodies of flesh but longing to be clothed in bodies that are of heaven. That is, we long to be spiritual/celestial/heavenly body as Christ is. As long as our body is alive in mortal flesh & blood we are not with Christ in heaven, and as He is (spiritual). Because mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven. If you read the entire context we find Paul confirms this when he says:

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 (KJV) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When the physical body of a believer dies, we go to heaven as spiritual body of believers, and according to John even there we do not cease from singing praises and worshipping the Lord. Even the angels, the elders and the four beasts fall on their faces to worship God in heaven. Do you believe the material things described as being in heaven are literal, or are these things to be understood metaphorically?

Revelation 7:9-12 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Still avoiding 2 Corinthians 5:1.

The soul changes bodies. The soul does not change into a body. A soul is a soul. A body is a body, still physical. And the spirit is still spirit. The soul does not turn into spirit. Three distinct parts of a son of God equal to the 3 parts of the Lord. God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I don't make a distinction between what was created. The only difference is that the human soul is born into a dead physical body, and separated from the spirit. We are dead, not our spirit. You are not a spirit, you are a soul.

Why would God not allow creation to go on unchanged in Paradise? The only difference is we are dead, and those in Paradise are alive. You call that the difference between mortal (death) and immortal (not death). Adam's dead corruptible flesh returns to dust. That dust is not resurrected. The other physical body comes from God and currently only exists in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

I showed you the context and explanation of what Paul says in 2Cor 5, but you don't want the context, perhaps because it blows your opinions???

Are you just trying to waste my time Tim? You repeatedly contradict yourself! Body of mortal flesh resides while alive on this earth, and spiritual body after physical death resides in heaven. As for Adam's dead corruptible flesh, I made no statement regarding????

Of course you mention Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is your current state. God's permanent incorruptible body is still physical. This body is death. The body from God is life. But both are physical that has not changed since God created humans on the 6th day.


God does not reinvent the process. One is still soul, body, and spirit in Paradise. The spirit is spiritual. The body is physical.

You keep claiming the body turns into spirit, but that is wrong. The soul leaves one body to enter the other body. Both are physical. Just one is of death, and the other is of life.

 

[rwb]

Still avoiding 2 Corinthians 5:1.

The soul changes bodies. The soul does not change into a body. A soul is a soul. A body is a body, still physical. And the spirit is still spirit. The soul does not turn into spirit. Three distinct parts of a son of God equal to the 3 parts of the Lord. God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I don't make a distinction between what was created. The only difference is that the human soul is born into a dead physical body, and separated from the spirit. We are dead, not our spirit. You are not a spirit, you are a soul.

Why would God not allow creation to go on unchanged in Paradise? The only difference is we are dead, and those in Paradise are alive. You call that the difference between mortal (death) and immortal (not death). Adam's dead corruptible flesh returns to dust. That dust is not resurrected. The other physical body comes from God and currently only exists in Paradise.

When God created man He gave him a physical body and breathed the breath of life (spirit) into him, and this made man a complete living soul. Man is made of body + spirit = living soul. Every living, breathing creature upon this earth is a 'living soul.' A living soul exists only where there is life. If the life goes out of the physical body, that physical body becomes a corpse. But when the life leaves our physical body, our spirit returns to God who gave it. There is no exception, every spirit returns to God the moment our body ceases to have life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a man is born again before he/she dies, our spirit that returns to God when we die has the Holy Spirit from Christ that shall be with him/her until we receive our resurrected immortal & incorruptible body that will be made alive again through our spirit that never died because we were kept alive by the Spirit of Christ. That's what you don't seem to understand. The spirit of the man/woman who is born again NEVER dies, and returns to God ALIVE by His Spirit. There is no in-between physical body after our physical body dies. Like you agree, the dead body returns to dust. And believers will not have another physical body resurrected to life again to live on this earth for one thousand years, nor to live in paradise (heaven?) after our physical body dies. None will be physically resurrected again until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. Then every dead human body will be resurrected either to immortal & incorruptible life on the new earth, or resurrected to damnation.

We are a complete living soul until our body dies, and then we are a living spirit soul in heaven IF IF IF we were born again before physical death. The spirits of all men return to God after our physical body dies, but those who have not been born again, have not the Spirit of Christ to give them life, therefore they are said to be in silence and darkness in the grave.

When you ask "why God would not allow creation to go on unchanged in paradise", you're trying to create another age of approximately one thousand years to fit your doctrine. But Scripture speaks only of this age, and the age to come. This age is destined to end and the age to come is forever. There is no age in-between that is about one thousand years long.

 

[rwb]

Of course you mention Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is your current state. God's permanent incorruptible body is still physical. This body is death. The body from God is life. But both are physical that has not changed since God created humans on the 6th day.


God does not reinvent the process. One is still soul, body, and spirit in Paradise. The spirit is spiritual. The body is physical.

You keep claiming the body turns into spirit, but that is wrong. The soul leaves one body to enter the other body. Both are dephysical. Just one is of death, and the other is of life.

Tim, I am not saying the resurrected body we shall receive in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds will not be physical. I'm trying to help you to understand that when our natural, physical body dies, the only part of man that has been born again that continues to have life is our spirit. And that spiritual life comes from the Holy Spirit of Christ in us. The only part of man that returns to heaven (is that what you mean by paradise?) after our body dies is our spirit. And in heaven our spirit is still alive and therefore still called a living soul, but without a physical body. The body does not turn into spirit! Our spirit departs from our dead body and returns to God either with the life-giving Spirit, or without Him. A body without a spirit is dead! But a spirit through Christ's Spirit shall never die. There is no such thing as "dephysical" body! There is either body + spirit = living soul on earth, or spirit with His Holy Spirit = living soul in heaven.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Timtofly]

When God created man He gave him a physical body and breathed the breath of life (spirit) into him, and this made man a complete living soul. Man is made of body + spirit = living soul. Every living, breathing creature upon this earth is a 'living soul.' A living soul exists only where there is life. If the life goes out of the physical body, that physical body becomes a corpse. But when the life leaves our physical body, our spirit returns to God who gave it. There is no exception, every spirit returns to God the moment our body ceases to have life.

No. The soul is you. Humans became a living soul, yes. A soul in the physical body within a spirit form. The soul, the body, and the spirit. Paul points out the soul needs to put on a body, and then put on life, which is the spirit. John points out putting on the spirit is like putting on a robe of white. Jesus showed the spirit on over the physical body on the mount of Transfiguration. His physical body looked like the sun. His body did not change. Having on the spirit is having on light.

The air you breath is not spirit. You are spiritually dead, separated from your spirit. You don't get your spirit until the Second Coming.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a man is born again before he/she dies, our spirit that returns to God when we die has the Holy Spirit from Christ that shall be with him/her until we receive our resurrected immortal & incorruptible body that will be made alive again through our spirit that never died because we were kept alive by the Spirit of Christ. That's what you don't seem to understand. The spirit of the man/woman who is born again NEVER dies, and returns to God ALIVE by His Spirit. There is no in-between physical body after our physical body dies. Like you agree, the dead body returns to dust. And believers will not have another physical body resurrected to life again to live on this earth for one thousand years, nor to live in paradise (heaven?) after our physical body dies. None will be physically resurrected again until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. Then every dead human body will be resurrected either to immortal & incorruptible life on the new earth, or resurrected to damnation.

We are given the Holy Spirit in exchange for our spirit. You are spiritually dead, without any connection to your spirit. That is why you have the Holy Spirit available to you.

We are a complete living soul until our body dies, and then we are a living spirit soul in heaven IF IF IF we were born again before physical death. The spirits of all men return to God after our physical body dies, but those who have not been born again, have not the Spirit of Christ to give them life, therefore they are said to be in silence and darkness in the grave.

When you ask "why God would not allow creation to go on unchanged in paradise", you're trying to create another age of approximately one thousand years to fit your doctrine. But Scripture speaks only of this age, and the age to come. This age is destined to end and the age to come is forever. There is no age in-between that is about one thousand years long.

No, you are the one changing the point with ages. They had a permanent incorruptible physical body since the Cross when they experienced a physical resurrection. Lazarus had a physical resurrection. A resurrection is just that physical. The first birth was physical. The first death is physical. The first resurrection is physical to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Still you avoid 2 Corinthians 5:1.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, I am not saying the resurrected body we shall receive in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds will not be physical. I'm trying to help you to understand that when our natural, physical body dies, the only part of man that has been born again that continues to have life is our spirit. And that spiritual life comes from the Holy Spirit of Christ in us. The only part of man that returns to heaven (is that what you mean by paradise?) after our body dies is our spirit. And in heaven our spirit is still alive and therefore still called a living soul, but without a physical body. The body does not turn into spirit! Our spirit departs from our dead body and returns to God either with the life-giving Spirit, or without Him. A body without a spirit is dead! But a spirit through Christ's Spirit shall never die. There is no such thing as "dephysical" body! There is either body + spirit = living soul on earth, or spirit with His Holy Spirit = living soul in heaven.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If you don't see sons of God in the image of God as 3 distinct parts, that is probably the issue between us.

There is a seperate spirit from the body and soul. The body and spirit does not equal soul. This verse states all 3 are seperate and all 3 can be cast into the LOF. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Matthew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Jesus said the soul was seperate from the body, and both could be cast into sheol. The spirit would follow at the GWT into the LOF.

Of course our spirit is in heaven. That is where they exist in the presence of God. But being spiritually dead separates us from our spirit. Not that it is dead. The second death would be when the spirit is cast into the LOF. That would also include all demonic spirits that belong to reprobate humanity.

The second birth places us into the family of God and secures our spirit. That is why Paul pointed out that all 3 be found blameless, soul, body, and spirit. That is why I distinguish between the first birth and second birth, the first death and second death, and the first resurrection. There is no resurrection mentioned, out of the LOF. All the firsts deal with the body, as physical. All the seconds deal with the spirit as spiritual.

And I don't see any one waiting past the Cross for their physical bodies. I think Enoch was given a permanent incorruptible physical body. The only way he could enter heaven. Paradise was already there. The Garden of Eden had no residents, so was no longer necessary to remain on the earth. It would have been destroyed in the Flood anyway. I think Moses was given a permanent incorruptible physical body. Jude pointed out that Satan disputed with Michael the archangel over the body of Moses:

9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

We see both Elijah and Moses appeared with a body on the mount of Transfiguration. Then Lazarus was resurrected with the first resurrection. Then in Matthew 27, the Holy Spirit led Matthew to write that many came out of their graves. That is the first resurrection, even though we are not given that term until Revelation 20. So before Jesus ascended Sunday morning, after talking to Mary, He had already descended first into Abraham's bosom and they all received the first resurrection to also ascend with Jesus to be presented to God. Paul called them the firstfruits of that resurrection. They were the first after the Cross to be made alive. The thief on the cross was told he would enter Paradise that day. His soul left one body and entered that heavenly body. That body that Paul describes as permanent and incorruptible. The first resurrection has been ongoing since that day. Only those alive on the earth are waiting for that permanent incorruptible physical body.

 

[rwb]

The soul, the body, and the spirit. Paul points out the soul needs to put on a body, and then put on life, which is the spirit.

Is that what you think Paul points out in 2Cor 5:1? Why would Paul point out the soul needs to put on a body, when the living body with spirit is already a living soul? You've said the exact same thing, so why would you think Paul tells us the soul needs a body?

What Paul is telling us in this passage is that he will put off (die) his natural, physical body from the earth, but that does not mean that he will be found naked, because when his body dies, he will not be unclothed, rather physical death of the mortal body means his physical body shall be resurrected immortal. But, before that can happen, Paul says Christ has given him and all believers His Holy Spirit which teaches us that while we are physically present in our mortal body, and at home in the flesh, we are absent from Christ in heaven. But since, through His Spirit in us, we walk by faith and not by sight, we are more than willing to be absent from our physical body because then we shall be present with the Lord in heaven, a spiritual body, a living spirit soul. Death of our body does not mean we are no longer a living soul. For every believer it simply means that we become spiritual body in heaven, because the spirit in us that returns to God after our body dies has ETERNAL life and shall not cease to be alive when our physical body dies.

Paul shows this truth plainly stated in 1Cor 15. Carefully read this passage of Scripture where Paul clearly explains the same thing. That which physically dies in a natural body, but the body raised is spiritual, because there is both a natural body of believers on earth and a spiritual body of believers in heaven. First on earth the Church is a physical body of believers, and when our natural body dies, we belong to a spiritual body of believers in heaven. And just as in life we are the image of the earthy man (Adam), so too in heaven we shall be the image of the heavenly man (Christ), spirit as are the angels of God in heaven. Only faithful man's spirit goes alive to heaven, our mortal body cannot go there because neither flesh & blood, nor corruption inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The air you breath is not spirit. You are spiritually dead, separated from your spirit. You don't get your spirit until the Second Coming

The spirit God gave mankind gives natural, physical life to our body of flesh & blood. Our natural spirit enables us to think, or reason, gives our body the ability to breathe, and is the center for every organ functioning in our physical, earthly bodies. That's why when the spirit departs the body, the body becomes a corpse. When Paul writes that we were dead in trespasses and sins, he is speaking to all who have not the life-giving Spirit of Christ. Without the Holy Spirit, man is naturally alive, but without the Spirit of Christ, spiritually we are dead. IOW without His Spirit in us we have no desire for Christ and live as a natural man/woman living according to this world, fulfilling the lusts of our flesh and of our mind, we are without His Spirit by nature children of wrath and deserving of death.

Ephesians 2:2-3 (KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We are living souls through spirit in us. Every living breathing thing upon the earth is a "living soul", whether man or creature, endowed with both body and spirit. Only mankind may possess the Spirit of God when they are born again or born from above while physically alive when His Spirit gives our spirit ETERNAL life. We have the Spirit in us the moment we are eternally spiritually saved. Without the Spirit in us, we shall die in our sins in unbelief, and our fate shall be silence and darkness in the grave. That's why Paul writes we were DEAD in trespasses and sins and without His Spirit to guide us to all truth in the Lord.

No, you are the one changing the point with ages. They had a permanent incorruptible physical body since the Cross when they experienced a physical resurrection. Lazarus had a physical resurrection. A resurrection is just that physical. The first birth was physical. The first death is physical. The first resurrection is physical to God's permanent incorruptible physical body

No human, except Christ our Lord has a permanent incorruptible physical body in this age of time, symbolized a thousand years. Yes, Lazarus was physically resurrected, but his physical body was corruptible, which is why Lazarus physically died. Yes, the resurrection of our mortal body shall be physical, but no man, except Christ, has been physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible, and shall not be until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven shall be no longer. Just as mankind is physically born, so too mankind is ordained in this age to physically die. The first resurrection pertains to the resurrection of Christ ALONE! He is the first resurrection of the physically dead who shall never die again. It is Christ's resurrection that mankind in life must have part in to overcome the second death. Without having part in the first resurrection through Christ we have NOT His life-giving Spirit to give our spirit ETERNAL/EVERLASTING life that shall never die. I believe Christ when He tells us, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Since these words were spoken after Christ's faithful saint, Lazarus had died, it is clear that Christ was speaking of our spirit that would never die, not our flesh.

 

[rwb]

If you don't see sons of God in the image of God as 3 distinct parts, that is probably the issue between us.

Not only sons of God have body + spirit and are "living souls. Every human, and in fact every, living breathing creature upon the face of the earth has body + spirit and is a "living soul." In addition to having a natural spirit that gives our body natural physical life, sons of God also have the presence of the Holy Spirit. Before Christ sent His Spirit to be in His people, the Spirit was not in the Old Covenant faithful, but He was with them.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Man is created in two parts, body and spirit, and the two parts of every man and every living creature upon the earth with the breath of life is a living soul. Without spirit in the natural body of flesh, the body of every living breathing creature becomes a corpse!

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (physical body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit) and man became a living soul.

Body + spirit = living soul.

There is a seperate spirit from the body and soul. The body and spirit does not equal soul. This verse states all 3 are seperate and all 3 can be cast into the LOF. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Matthew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Jesus said the soul was seperate from the body, and both could be cast into sheol. The spirit would follow at the GWT into the LOF.

These verses confirm what I've been saying Tim. When Paul prays that God would wholly sanctify the whole spirit and soul and body, his prayer is that our spirit will be complete through Christ's Spirit in us, that our life (soul) on this earth will be wholly devoted to Christ that our physical body also may be fully, physically alive in Christ. As I've repeated several times now, to be a living soul is to have both spirit and body.

When Christ tells us to fear not them which kill the body, but cannot kill the soul, He is assuring us that death of our body is not the end of life for our spirit that has eternal life through His Spirit. He tells us not to fear physical death in fighting the good fight of faith. For death of our body does not mean our soul/spirit shall be destroyed with our body in the eternal flames.

Matthew 10:29-32 (KJV) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Christ assures us that even if our body is killed, that is not the end of our life (spirit soul) because Christ knows the number of hairs on our head, therefore do not fear physical death, because we are of great value to the Lord.

Matthew 10:29-32 (KJV) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

I think Enoch was given a permanent incorruptible physical body.

It's not what we think, but what we can biblically prove that matters.

We see both Elijah and Moses appeared with a body on the mount of Transfiguration.

This is not proving Elijah and Moses possess physical bodies. This is a VISION!

Matthew 17:9 (KJV) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[Timtofly]

Is that what you think Paul points out in 2Cor 5:1? Why would Paul point out the soul needs to put on a body, when the living body with spirit is already a living soul? You've said the exact same thing, so why would you think Paul tells us the soul needs a body?

I think you miss the point there are 2 different bodies.

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection pertains to the resurrection of Christ ALONE! He is the first resurrection of the physically dead who shall never die again. It is Christ's resurrection that mankind in life must have part in to overcome the second death.

You really don't like eternal life? You really put it off until the very end of reality? Can you not even quote 2 Corinthians 5:1? The first resurrection is what all in Christ experience at the moment of the first death. Because they don't die. But you cannot take Adam's dead corruptible physical body to Paradise. That is why God provides His permanent incorruptible physical body. Eternal life is as physical as spiritual.