But her point was anything that remotely hints of God is slowly but surely being suppressed. Any one with memories from the 1950's and even the 1960's will know what I mean.
The Great Apostacy
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The world is not obligated to advertise for the Lord. The bible states that the world will hate us and we are witnessing that revelation.
The world thinks they're doing damage by suppressing these "hints" when all they're really doing is lending credence to the Word.
We are witnessing the beginning of sorrows. Instead of complaining, we should be rejoicing.
o
pia
Well-Known Member
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, BG, you're 100% correct. we, in generation time, have relied on people who claimed that they, a. was sent from God. b. they have education and know God. or c. just don't care about God but is out for themselves. this is nothing new under the sun, the Lord, and his disciples, and apostles warned us. Yes, the Lord is the best teacher, or may I say the only teacher, meaning people being indwell by him, the Holy Spirit. that's why it's not good to forsake the assembly of the SAINTS. over the years, I have learned much from Spirit Filled common, or as we say bench members more that what's coming from the pulpits today. I have nothing against education, please hear me out. good, if someone went to seminary school, again, GREAT. but when one let their education get before God, then the blind leads the blind and one knows where that leads to, the ditch. but there is two side to the same coin. we, #1. really don't want to hear someone's else beliefs. it's nothing wrong in hearing, but check it out by the Spirit and see if what they are saying is of God or not. test the spirit by the SPIRIT, (then correct). #2. we, ourselves really don't read the bible with the Holy Spirit. he is the Revelator, we have not because we ask not. there is a way to ask, IN FAITH. just be honest in what you're doing and God will direct you to the truth, and Guide you in the TRUTH. I have the belief and hope, the FAITH, that there are still God fearing people in the world today, even some here on this site (which I have learned from). God works through people, hence the ministries. but staying on topic, our safety from falling into an apostate state is in the ark of safety, meaning in Christ Jesus. he will let you know if a word is from him or not, and reveal it to you. #3. I have read right here on this board, "I don't have the attention of a gnat, or I don't have the time", or something to this effect... there is no excuse to applying oneself in pursuit of the truth. the Lord Jesus himself said, John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me". don't rely on other all the time, but you can hear what they say, take action yourself in the Holy Ghost. don't do the blame game, you can do do something for yourself. be like those in Berea, Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so". STAND for something, or you'll fall for anything. just like the sower so seed fell among thorn and got choked. (they had roots somewhere else). let's but our minds on the Lord FIRST, then we will have time for other things. lastly, the scriptures tells us, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". this is The Great Apostasy, we are ashamed, so let's go to work.I am coming to the place where I don't believe anything that people tell us is 'history' it seems to have all been rewritten.
The only safe person to believe is the Lord Himself!!
Pulpit preachers, historians, politicians, the Media, the medical realm, the Weather man, ...no one has the truth.
be blessed in Christ Jesus.
101G
Well-Known Member
Scott gave the answer, coming from 2 Thessalonians 2. but notice verse, 3 Let no one deceive you by any means. that's the key. and the way to avoid it, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil". well the question, what's good, and what's evil?. hint what's private is not always public. and What's public is not always necessary private, for clarity see 1 Corinthians 6:12, and 1 Corinthians 10:23 big difference.
be blessed.
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy
This is the background of Christ's instruction to Gentiles (through Paul) during the dispensation [age] of grace.
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, “”I”” have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon...
1 Cor 4:14-16 For I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus “”I”” have begotten you through the gospel. [the Kingdom Gospel? No, the Grace Gospel? Yes.] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers [of whom? All the apostles? No...] of “”me“”. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of “”my”” ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
1 Cor 11:1-2 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as [who? Peter? John? James? No...] I delivered them to you.
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given [to who? All the apostles equally? No...] to me for you...
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [Gr. pleroo, complete] the word of God;
Finally...
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
***
Looking at the record of history...did "faithful men" continue Paul's teaching? ------ Judge for yourself after examining the doctrines that cropped up soon after the apostolic era.
THE LORD'S SUPPER
Three of the "church fathers" --Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus--said the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. Ignatius went as far as to call the bread “The medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but have life forever in Jesus Christ.”
These folks weren’t into transubstantiation as we know it, but they had an early form of it (more like consubstantiation).
QUESTION: Is that what Paul taught?
Paul clearly taught that it’s a memorial (1 Cor 11:23-26)...an important, solemn memorial, yes, but it’s still just bread and wine with no mention of any mystical presence of the Lord. So who was right -- these early church "fathers," or Paul?
SALVATION, SUFFERING AND PERSERVERENCE
Ignatius longed for animals to tear him to bits because he seemed to have believed that suffering and martyrdom would prove his Christianity and ensure his salvation. He seems to have exhibited an attitude of "I must endure to the end to be saved." While Kingdom saints under the law had to believe such dreadful truths (Matt. 24:13), Paul never did.
THE MYSTERY
Did Ignatius really have a grasp on the Mystery? He knew that the body of professing believers was comprised of Jews and Gentiles, but that was a fact clearly evident even to unbelievers. As to Paul's Mystery, he saw it as something else entirely:
"Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation..." (Eph. 12)
That's as close as can be found that Ignatius got to mentioning Paul's mystery revelation. But he did go into detail on this:
"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord---three mysteries to be cried aloud--which were wrought in the silence of God." (Eph. 19)
Ignatius did not have a clue regarding the Pauline revelation, judging by what he wrote. Yet he considered the virgin birth and the death of Messiah to have been hidden from Satan. But they weren’t hidden, for both were prophesied in the O.T. What WAS hidden from Satan (and from the whole world) was the full scope of the Cross (1 Cor 2:6-8), which was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul as part of the Mystery. Timothy knew it. Titus knew it. The Ephesians knew it. But Ignatius appears to never have understood it. That scope being that through the atonement work of the cross mankind can be saved by the grace of God based on faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross to pay for their sins.
WATER BAPTISM
This early doctrinal slide is most grossly evident when one examines these writer's opinions of water baptism. Ignatius wrote:
"It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid." (Smy. 8)
"Let your baptism abide with you as your shield... (Poly. 6). Elsewhere he said, "...as your arm..."
What Ignatius meant by "shield" is clear - it's a reference to defense, possibly spiritual armor. However, Paul gave water baptism no such significance. Ignatius is paving the way for a ritualistic, salvational approach to baptism [i.e., Rome's] which is with us to this day, especially when he says only the bishop can perform it or approve of it.
Justin also said that one could believe but wasn’t actually saved until he/she was dunked. That’s a form of baptismal regeneration, from as early as 150 A.D. (some say they used the terms “baptism” and “regeneration” interchangeably). But did Paul EVER teach this? No! These Gentile philosophers sound far more familiar with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 than with Eph 4:5.
NOTE: The point of this post is that all this doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practiced a mix of two dispensations, law and grace, as well as things not even found in the Bible.
One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.
2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
This is exactly what happened: from among the Gentile believers of Asia, false teachers DID arise, DID speak perverse things and DID draw away disciples unto themselves. All within 100 years of Paul's death.
This is the background of Christ's instruction to Gentiles (through Paul) during the dispensation [age] of grace.
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, “”I”” have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon...
1 Cor 4:14-16 For I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus “”I”” have begotten you through the gospel. [the Kingdom Gospel? No, the Grace Gospel? Yes.] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers [of whom? All the apostles? No...] of “”me“”. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of “”my”” ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
1 Cor 11:1-2 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as [who? Peter? John? James? No...] I delivered them to you.
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given [to who? All the apostles equally? No...] to me for you...
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [Gr. pleroo, complete] the word of God;
Finally...
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
***
Looking at the record of history...did "faithful men" continue Paul's teaching? ------ Judge for yourself after examining the doctrines that cropped up soon after the apostolic era.
THE LORD'S SUPPER
Three of the "church fathers" --Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus--said the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. Ignatius went as far as to call the bread “The medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but have life forever in Jesus Christ.”
These folks weren’t into transubstantiation as we know it, but they had an early form of it (more like consubstantiation).
QUESTION: Is that what Paul taught?
Paul clearly taught that it’s a memorial (1 Cor 11:23-26)...an important, solemn memorial, yes, but it’s still just bread and wine with no mention of any mystical presence of the Lord. So who was right -- these early church "fathers," or Paul?
SALVATION, SUFFERING AND PERSERVERENCE
Ignatius longed for animals to tear him to bits because he seemed to have believed that suffering and martyrdom would prove his Christianity and ensure his salvation. He seems to have exhibited an attitude of "I must endure to the end to be saved." While Kingdom saints under the law had to believe such dreadful truths (Matt. 24:13), Paul never did.
THE MYSTERY
Did Ignatius really have a grasp on the Mystery? He knew that the body of professing believers was comprised of Jews and Gentiles, but that was a fact clearly evident even to unbelievers. As to Paul's Mystery, he saw it as something else entirely:
"Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation..." (Eph. 12)
That's as close as can be found that Ignatius got to mentioning Paul's mystery revelation. But he did go into detail on this:
"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord---three mysteries to be cried aloud--which were wrought in the silence of God." (Eph. 19)
Ignatius did not have a clue regarding the Pauline revelation, judging by what he wrote. Yet he considered the virgin birth and the death of Messiah to have been hidden from Satan. But they weren’t hidden, for both were prophesied in the O.T. What WAS hidden from Satan (and from the whole world) was the full scope of the Cross (1 Cor 2:6-8), which was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul as part of the Mystery. Timothy knew it. Titus knew it. The Ephesians knew it. But Ignatius appears to never have understood it. That scope being that through the atonement work of the cross mankind can be saved by the grace of God based on faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross to pay for their sins.
WATER BAPTISM
This early doctrinal slide is most grossly evident when one examines these writer's opinions of water baptism. Ignatius wrote:
"It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid." (Smy. 8)
"Let your baptism abide with you as your shield... (Poly. 6). Elsewhere he said, "...as your arm..."
What Ignatius meant by "shield" is clear - it's a reference to defense, possibly spiritual armor. However, Paul gave water baptism no such significance. Ignatius is paving the way for a ritualistic, salvational approach to baptism [i.e., Rome's] which is with us to this day, especially when he says only the bishop can perform it or approve of it.
Justin also said that one could believe but wasn’t actually saved until he/she was dunked. That’s a form of baptismal regeneration, from as early as 150 A.D. (some say they used the terms “baptism” and “regeneration” interchangeably). But did Paul EVER teach this? No! These Gentile philosophers sound far more familiar with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 than with Eph 4:5.
NOTE: The point of this post is that all this doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practiced a mix of two dispensations, law and grace, as well as things not even found in the Bible.
One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.
2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
This is exactly what happened: from among the Gentile believers of Asia, false teachers DID arise, DID speak perverse things and DID draw away disciples unto themselves. All within 100 years of Paul's death.
101G
Well-Known Member
I'm not Roman Catholic, but the apostle Paul did say this, 1 Corinthians 11:27-33 "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. "Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another". the Lord's supper is just not a memorial. I'm not agreeing with these men in saying that the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. but reading from the apostle it sure can have some devastating effect on eating and drinking it unworthy.
Peace in Christ Jesus.
pia
Well-Known Member
Strange how posts get off track so very easy........O.K. Job, where did I say the world was obligated to Advertise for Jesus ? I KNEW using those trees, (as a pure example of how the powers that may be in the world are trying to make Jesus' name UNHEARD and in a lot of cases UN-HEARABLE), was going to get one or another to make it into something else. Hadn't thought it'd be you Job ! But this was about the great Apostasy, as some call it, was it not ? Anyway, I don't recall seeing that word in the Bible, but I do recall ' the great falling away ' mentioned, which has to come first.
Just compare 1 Cor 13:4-8 with how believers are in the world today, or just other people even......Other places in the Bible tells us with absolute accuracy what our society is like today " men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of pleasure etc ", except of course, that was written almost 2000 years ago, so that's pretty impressive, but also very telling...
I do believe we are in the middle of the beginning of sorrows as you write Job, and fairly soon all those who don't have any reality of Christ in their lives are not going to know what to do....Sadly the very young now, won't even know that they CAN call out to Jesus, and He WILL help for the time He has to do that...
Anyway even I'm getting off track here.........
So no word saying Apostasy but a Great Falling Away, and yes we should be looking up and rejoicing as you point out, but for you to suggest that I was complaining wasn't quite right, it was not what moved me, it was a piercing in my heart as I realized that more and more the young people don't know anything about Jesus at all , who He is and what He has done for them.........Like you I am not into all the statues and alike, but believers are supposed to bring the Love of God to others.
Then again, even just looking to this little forum, it is easy to see that it is not even happening among believers, so I guess things have to become utterly terrifying before people will truly reach out for HIM...
pia
Well-Known Member
Ha ha, you say 'these days' ....Truth has been under attack since the Garden and is to this day, but thankfully Jesus brought us the Truth and sent back to us His Spirit of Truth, so no one should have to walk in darkness still......
pia
Well-Known Member
Oh boy, now I remember lol....This was the post I meant to just quickly write that I recalled seeing 'The Great Falling Away' mentioned in the Bible which seems to be what people refer to as the great apostasy, I sure can't find that term either
pia
Well-Known Member
O.K. Job, obviously I don't mean HIDE , the way you're suggesting here......I would say however that all the religious establishments have done a huge job of doing exactly that......'Hiding' the Truth, 'Sitting' on the Truth ( as when only the teachers were able or indeed allowed to read what the Bible said )....I mean look around you, how many people do you know who is aware of the Reality which is Christ ?If that had not occurred , surely we would be seeing things like in the book of Acts, just in much bigger numbers..........
Anyway, I'm opting out of this....Like a lot of other things, it profits nothing !
Oh boy, now I remember lol....This was the post I meant to just quickly write that I recalled seeing 'The Great Falling Away' mentioned in the Bible which seems to be what people refer to as the great apostasy, I sure can't find that term either
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Here's another reference to the falling away.
Matthew 24
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
o
No, but I did. The world is trying to put a lid on christianity. All other religions are free to worship as they please, except for those who name Jesus as Lord.
Their hatred of us lends credence to the Word.
o
pia
Well-Known Member
Same here.....Must have made that point a few times. I was brought up in an entirely atheist family, and I do mean the entire FAMILY.........Wasn't witnessed to but found Jesus. Some years later however, after joining a small fellowship, I was told that we are supposed to go witnessing....... So if you have never been witnessed to in 40 years that is quite a feat in itself lol.....
But I didn't say we have to 'witness', but bring the Love of God to others......Isn't that the great commission ? To do the ONE thing Jesus actually asked us to do......'Love one another as I have loved you, and by this the world will know that I came from the Father'.....somewhat paraphrased, but I'm sure you get the gist ?
pia
Well-Known Member
I am actually freezing my butt off here, it's been so cold, wet and windy, so actually Job, wouldn't mind a little warmth....I was addressing someone else when I made that comment and was not directed at you in any way, shape or form.
You need to chill.
o
pia
Well-Known Member
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