The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Jack]

Correct. Eternal punishment. Death. The wages of sin is death.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. And death is eternal if there is no resurrection. And there is no resurrection from the second death or hope of any life for sinners.
There is no continual punishing. You are not listening to even wanting to understand the truth of scripture. You are way too determined to paint God in your own image and likeness.

'Death' never means 'cease to exist' in the NT! So you don't believe in 'eternal' life?

 

[Grailhunter]

Who taught that sinners would die, and not live for ever. But will you actually read the scripture and believe it?
KJV Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Or will you continue to believe rather the words of Satan, and use his lie as the authority for your beliefs?

KJV Genesis 3:4
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

KJV Luke 24:25
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ya know we call it the Old Testament but before that it was the Hebrew Bible and their beliefs were a little different.
Their concepts of death were different, their ultimate destination was Sheol and even at that it was not consistent.
In the Old Testament they are conjuring up people that had died.
But again you are fighting a losing battle....your beliefs about Hell and death do not exist in Christianity....never did.

 

[Brakelite]

So you don't believe in 'eternal' life?

Not for sinners.

 

[Jack]

Not for sinners.

Someone should have told Jesus.

Mt 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Brakelite]

'Death' never means 'cease to exist'

Mmm, yeah, modern Christians attempt to reduce death to separation from God. They claim it isn't a complete absence of life, but simply a different address. Yet they, and I don't have any expectation that either you or Grail would either, explain how any entity, be it angel demon or man, can exist whilst separated from the only source of life.

Ya know we call it the Old Testament but before that it was the Hebrew Bible and their beliefs were a little different.
Their concepts of death were different, their ultimate destination was Sheol and even at that it was not consistent.
In the Old Testament they are conjuring up people that had died.
But again you are fighting a losing battle....your beliefs about Hell and death do not exist in Christianity....never did.

Conjuring? Really? Okay, so Saul was reduced to appealing to the occult to speak to Samuel, (although I doubt it was truly Samuel, coming up in humble obedience to a witch) but nevertheless, death in the first instance is but sleep, because innate to the death experience is the hope of resurrection. Waking up. The second death however holds no such promises.

 

[Jack]

Mmm, yeah, modern Christians attempt to reduce death to separation from God. They claim it isn't a complete absence of life, but simply a different address. Yet they, and I don't have any expectation that either you or Grail would either, explain how any entity, be it angel demon or man, can exist whilst separated from the only source of life.

No Scripture? You totally evaded mine.

 

[Brakelite]

Someone should have told Jesus.

Mt 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Okay, for the umpteenth time, seeing you still refuse to listen and actually respond intelligently to the posts others offer,
1. Matthew 25 days the fire is everlasting. God Himself is a consuming fire and is eternal. In His presence sin cannot exist. When God appears at the end of the millennium, and the wicked are raised to face their judgement, fire from God... The very presence of God... Consumes them to ashes. Burns them up. Destroyed them. They perish. Forever. Some more quickly than others, because the extent of guilt brings "many stripes ', to some, not so many to others. God is just.

2. In respect to Revelation 20. Did Jonah remain in the whale for ever?

 

[Jack]

Okay, for the umpteenth time, seeing you still refuse to listen and actually respond intelligently to the posts others offer,
1. Matthew 25 days the fire is everlasting. God Himself is a consuming fire and is eternal. In His presence sin cannot exist. When God appears at the end of the millennium, and the wicked are raised to face their judgement, fire from God... The very presence of God... Consumes them to ashes. Burns them up. Destroyed them. They perish. Forever. Some more quickly than others, because the extent of guilt brings "many stripes ', to some, not so many to others. God is just.

2. In respect to Revelation 20. Did Jonah remain in the whale for ever?

You're quite desperately evading the many NT Scriptures!

Post 845

 

[Grailhunter]

Mmm, yeah, modern Christians attempt to reduce death to separation from God. They claim it isn't a complete absence of life, but simply a different address. Yet they, and I don't have any expectation that either you or Grail would either, explain how any entity, be it angel demon or man, can exist whilst separated from the only source of life.

Conjuring? Really? Okay, so Saul was reduced to appealing to the occult to speak to Samuel, (although I doubt it was truly Samuel, coming up in humble obedience to a witch) but nevertheless, death in the first instance is but sleep, because innate to the death experience is the hope of resurrection. Waking up. The second death however holds no such promises.

Disagree and so would Moses and Elijah when they were called on to talk to Christ.

And then the story of Lazarus and the Rich man.

 

[Meditation]

What was our forefather, Adam, told what fate awaited him if he rebelled?

 

[St. SteVen]

What was our forefather, Adam, told what fate awaited him if he rebelled?

Death, on the day he ate thereof. Did he die on the day he ate thereof? (yes)
According to his understanding of death? (no)

Does God do that to us too?

Imagine telling a two-year old not to play with the toy car in the middle of the playroom.
If he does, then he will not get a new car upon graduation from High School.
Did the two-year old understand? (not really) Will he leave the toy car alone? (no)

 

[Meditation]

Death, on the day he ate thereof. Did he die on the day he ate thereof? (yes)
According to his understanding of death? (no)

Does God do that to us too?

Imagine telling a two-year old not to play with the toy car in the middle of the playroom.
If he does, then he will not get a new car upon graduation from High School.
Did the two-year old understand? (not really) Will he leave the toy car alone? (no)

Adam wasn't created a boy.
By the time God created woman, he had got to know his heavenly father well!
The scriptures later say Adam wasn't deceived, Eve was.
Who can say what would have happened if he remained faithful.

But, alas.
He and his wife died.
No 'immortal soul' flitting off to somewhere else!

 

[St. SteVen]

He and his wife died.

In the day they ate thereof?

In what sense?
We have a geneology that tells us how long Adam lived and who came after him.

 

[Meditation]

In the day they ate thereof?

In what sense?
We have a geneology that tells us how long Adam lived and who came after him.

As in Noah's DAY....or are you suggesting God made a mistake?

 

[Brakelite]

In the day they ate thereof?

In what sense?
We have a geneology that tells us how long Adam lived and who came after him.

God didn't lie when He warned that Adam would die that day. He would have died utterly and completely if the Son of God hadn't right there and then stepped in and promised to die in Adams place, hence the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
But the life he then lived, became a time of probation. When Adam sinned, everything changed. There was no longer a face to face relationship with the Father. Adam's way of thinking had been compromised, so badly and so suddenly he had to relearn what it meant to regain the image of God... This took a lifetime's work, and it is the same work we must each individually undertake. It is a life of faith and trust in the grace and mercy of God: it is God's desire that we become the people intended in the beginning. Capable of maintaining a relationship with the Father without being destroyed by His presence. Recreated in the image of Christ. If not, we shall most assuredly die, cease to exist, for God will not tolerate sin and rebelliousness to be immortalised in an otherwise holy universe.

 

[Jack]

God didn't lie when He warned that Adam would die that day. He would have died utterly and completely if the Son of God hadn't right there and then stepped in and promised to die in Adams place, hence the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
But the life he then lived, became a time of probation. When Adam sinned, everything changed. There was no longer a face to face relationship with the Father. Adam's way of thinking had been compromised, so badly and so suddenly he had to relearn what it meant to regain the image of God... This took a lifetime's work, and it is the same work we must each individually undertake. It is a life of faith and trust in the grace and mercy of God: it is God's desire that we become the people intended in the beginning. Capable of maintaining a relationship with the Father without being destroyed by His presence. Recreated in the image of Christ. If not, we shall most assuredly die, cease to exist, for God will not tolerate sin and rebelliousness to be immortalised in an otherwise holy universe.

"Cease to exist"?

 

[St. SteVen]

God didn't lie when He warned that Adam would die that day.

Thanks for your response.
Hadn't heard that idea before. At the fall seems late to the game for "from the foundations". But... ???

My take is that there are two kinds of death, physical and spiritual.

 

[Meditation]

"Cease to exist"?

That is blasphemy for those believing in the mythical 'immortal' soul!

 

[Brakelite]

"Cease to exist"?

Only God is immortal.

 

[Jack]

Only God is immortal.

Why do you avoid what Jesus said?

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.