The Natural Man

[Episkopos]

This is a follow-up thread to the thread entitled "The Inner Man."

Other ways of calling the natural man are ...the carnal man, or outward man.

This subject merits a deeper study as the natural man, above all else, gets in the way of spiritual growth in Christ. There is nothing more difficult to overcome than a wrong idea of what God is looking for in us.

Specifically, I want to look at the "converted" natural man...or the religious natural man. This condition, far from being limited to new believers, has become in our time ubiquitous to the point of being that which defines modern Christianity. This ought not to be. We should seek to be renewed in our minds,,,and not just religiously indoctrinated to bring the scriptures down to the level of being grasped by the carnal mind.

When we look deeper into the mechanisms of the religious carnal mind...we see a "mindfield" as it were, of death...even as that person seeks towards life.There is a lack of power...and the grace that brings the unity of the Spirit. There is a lack of spiritual life.

Again, the old man...with his sin nature, is done away with at regeneration. Old things are indeed passed away...unless, of course, a person backslides into his former conduct. But that is not the subject of this thread. No, I wish to focus on the well-meaning, though very misled efforts of a man who thinks he is further ahead than he actually is. I wish to speak of people who are building in the wrong realm and with the wrong materials.

The purpose of this thread is to bring clarity and truth in order to help people depart from what impedes their growth in Christ. This is sure to be well received by some, but vigourously confronted by others.

This subject will be of interest for they who seek for authenticity by being honest about the state of affairs when compared to the testimony we find in the New Testament.

 

[Episkopos]

The natural man is the greatest enemy we will ever face.

Why and how is that?

The devil can't get to us through the inner man directly. We are with Christ in the inner man (if we are truly the Lord's). But we can be fooled into putting some level of confidence in the outward man. If we don't know ourselves enough...we can be lured away from our inner peace and security through events and concerns that affect the outer man.

Worse still. We can try to make the natural man tag along, as it were....so that as we grow...so does our pride. IOW we are not disengaging from that which causes death in us. We are seeking for more life...but we are bringing death along with us.

There is no real growth in the ways of God without the cross of Christ and it's affect on the natural man.

There is a phenomenon whereby when we are broken down outwardly...we get stronger inwardly. Observe the sick, or broken, or aging or dying person. Notice that many people in this condition become more gentle...more loving and more understanding.

Why is this.

Paul said it well...

2 Cor. 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Now if only we could proceed to grow in the inner man by faith and not have to wait till we are sick and dying to help distract the natural man. If only we could understand our true condition.

 

[bbyrd009]

the natural man, above all else, gets in the way of spiritual growth in Christ. There is nothing more difficult to overcome than a wrong idea of what God is looking for in us.

nice imo, this might even be rephrased "the spiritual man, above all else, gets in the way of natural growth in Christ" to reflect the perspective...ah, what you are saying here iow,

Specifically, I want to look at the "converted" natural man...or the religious natural man. This condition, far from being limited to new believers, has become in our time ubiquitous to the point of being that which defines modern Christianity.

but i'll leave that anyway for comparison

This ought not to be.

it's totally perfect imo
and i comment here not to be fractious ok, of course i agree with you in spirit, only imo are expressing expectations as if they were truths? Iow this is not God's pov imo, this is even counter to God's pov, there is a season for everything, etc

Again, the old man...with his sin nature, is done away with at regeneration.

...
again, not meaning to be fractious, but this seems to infer that regeneration is or can be instantaneous...well, and i guess it can,
however imo it usually is not, and unfortunately what many will hear when they read that imo is "i can make a little profession down front tomorrow and voila!" or something similar

 

[Episkopos]

nice imo, this might even be rephrased "the spiritual man, above all else, gets in the way of natural growth in Christ" to reflect the perspective...ah, what you are saying here iow,

Actually I meant...the natural man gets in the way of the inner man BECOMING spiritual in Christ.

it's totally perfect imo
and i comment here not to be fractious ok, of course i agree with you in spirit, only imo are expressing expectations as if they were truths? Iow this is not God's pov imo, this is even counter to God's pov, there is a season for everything, etc

Did James not say...out of the same mouth blessings AND cursings...this ought not to be?

People are a jumble of inward and outward motivations...till they get sorted out. How many people are rough on others...because of their outer man defensiveness...yet expect to be treated gently in return...because they are looking for something from the inner man?

again, not meaning to be fractious, but this seems to infer that regeneration is or can be instantaneous...well, and i guess it can,
however imo it usually is not, and unfortunately what many will hear when they read that imo is "i can make a little profession down front tomorrow and voila!" or something similar

Regeneration means to be born again. It happens in a moment. But we are talking here of a miraculous birth into the spiritual dimension where God lives.

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually I meant...the natural man gets in the way of the inner man BECOMING spiritual in Christ.

sure, i understand, i just define "natural" diff now, hmm, i wouldn't bother but i guess pertinent here, Strong's Greek: 5591. ψυχικός (psuchikos) -- natural, of the soul or mind, note all of the reinforcement for "natural" and "earth" if you will, "i.e. behavior that is more of earth," etc, and it not until we get waaay down to here, "NASB Translation natural (5), worldly-minded (1) that the point starts to clarify. Erets is not Kosmos iow, although they are being conflated here and @ Strong's i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Did James not say...out of the same mouth blessings AND cursings...this ought not to be?

i would argue that the subject has changed here, considerably?

 

[Episkopos]

sure, i understand, i just define "natural" diff now, hmm, i wouldn't bother but i guess pertinent here, Strong's Greek: 5591. ψυχικός (psuchikos) -- natural, of the soul or mind, note all of the reinforcement for "natural" and "earth" if you will, "i.e. behavior that is more of earth," etc, and it not until we get waaay down to here, "NASB Translation natural (5), worldly-minded (1) that the point starts to clarify. Erets is not Kosmos iow, although they are being conflated here and @ Strong's i guess

Remember that in many the cares of this world choke out the word. The cares of this world affect the outer man...and when he becomes strong..or takes over...the inner man with the inner life is choked out.

So then we can see the natural man as the outer man or carnal man. We all have an exterior shell we interact with the world with. But is that shell what defines us? Are we acting from there? Or from deeper within?

 

[Episkopos]

i would argue that the subject has changed here, considerably?

The subject?

 

[bbyrd009]

i would argue that the subject has changed here, considerably?

This condition (my edit: twice the sons of hell, seven worse spirits, etc), far from being limited to new believers, has become in our time ubiquitous to the point of being that which defines modern Christianity. This ought not to be.

i guess they are closely related though, so i would qualify that by saying that blessings and cursings do not really come from the same mouth either, your blessings will be taken as curses, etc.

so again, i agree in spirit bc i share your perspective, these things should not be
true enough from our pov, i agree

 

[Episkopos]

i guess they are closely related though, so i would qualify that by saying that blessings and cursings do not really come from the same mouth either, your blessings will be taken as curses, etc.

so again, i agree in spirit bc i share your perspective, these things should not be
true enough from our pov, i agree

Alright. I think it is Jame's point that we allow ourselves too often to be hard on others from the outward man....AND also do what is right from the inner man...to bless others. We are to bless and not curse. But there is that pesky natural man to put in his place. That is OUR responsibility to bring the carnal man to the cross of Christ to be dealt with by God.

 

[bbyrd009]

How many people are rough on others...because of their outer man defensiveness...yet expect to be treated gently in return...because they are looking for something from the inner man?

imo all of the "women" i guess, i say it this way bc of the way you have constructed the Q tho ok, iow bc your "becauses" have qualified them as a hypocrite? Which i am too, don't get me wrong here

 

[bbyrd009]

Regeneration means to be born again. It happens in a moment. But we are talking here of a miraculous birth into the spiritual dimension where God lives.

ok well in this context i would like to suggest that when you cut a tree down it is immediately "born again," yes,
although it would take a while for you to see any new growth?

bc wadr i can get "born again" for about $4.95 down to the baptist "church" tomorrow, right

 

[Episkopos]

imo all of the "women" i guess, i say it this way bc of the way you have constructed the Q tho ok, iow bc your "becauses" have qualified them as a hypocrite? Which i am too, don't get me wrong here

I think hypocrisy only comes about when we seek to cover up our failings. A hypocrite is an actor...who tries to appear religious before men...since God always sees our true condition.

How do we cover up our failings based on the activities of our natural man? By judging others as worthy of the cursings we administer. Rather than seeing how poorly we are behaving...we blame others without taking the appropriate responsibility for our own actions. THAT is a life lived fully in the outward man. Such a person is unreachable with the truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Remember that in many the cares of this world choke out the word

ah, now you wanna talk about the world, ok

 

[Episkopos]

ok well in this context i would like to suggest that when you cut a tree down it is immediately "born again," yes,
although it would take a while for you to see any new growth?

bc wadr i can get "born again" for about $4.95 down to the baptist "church" tomorrow, right

Well that is the modern religion fooling people into believing things that aren't truth. The waters have been so muddied that people just do as they feel these days.

Beginning a life in the Spirit in no way guarantees that we will continue in the Spirit.

And how many have really even begun in the Spirit?

 

[Episkopos]

ah, now you wanna talk about the world, ok

The world is the reality of the outward man. The kingdom of God is the reality of the inner man. So if you live by your senses...you are a carnal man...ie...the carnal senses.

If you walk by faith in the inner man...then the kingdom of God is something you live in and by.

 

[bbyrd009]

We all have an exterior shell we interact with the world with. But is that shell what defines us? Are we acting from there? Or from deeper within?

good Qs imo, where your treasure is, there your heart is too i guess.

you characterize an "outer shell," and imo Joker said it well,
"give a man a mask and he will show his true self"
iow i don't really buy the characterization of our masks being separate from us, like we like to...justify

But is that shell what defines us? Are we acting from there? Or from deeper within?

ya nice, that

 

[Episkopos]

good Qs imo, where your treasure is, there your heart is too i guess.

you characterize an "outer shell," and imo Joker said it well,
"give a man a mask and he will show his true self"
iow i don't really buy the characterization of our masks being separate from us, like we like to...justify
ya nice, that

Very good points here. I like your Joker quote. It is true.

Our outer natural man is like a mask. We do show our real selves by how much we put into the outward show.

It isn't that the masks don't represent something about us...they do. But we can purposefully demask ourselves and come out into the light to be seen for who we really are...no defenses, walls or masks. THAT is who can be reached with the grace of God. That is the part of us that comes out by faith.

The just walk by faith from within...not by sight and the carnal sense in the outer natural man.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think it is Jame's point that we allow ourselves too often to be hard on others from the outward man....AND also do what is right from the inner man...to bless others.

ha so much for that instantaneous thingy i guess huh

We are to bless and not curse.

what you bless will be blessed, and what you curse will be cursed which i'm sure is in the NT somewhere, Bsearch is only burping up Gen 12:3 right now, so the italics are conditional at the moment

the point being i cannot wholeheartedly endorse your statement of absolute truth at this time, although there is something still not right in my perception here either prolly, and you might be entirely correct

But there is that pesky natural man to put in his place. That is OUR responsibility to bring the carnal man to the cross of Christ to be dealt with by God.

word.

being as how we found the world again just now maybe we can find how we slay the Lamb in the process, i guess when we "forget our first love."

 

[Episkopos]

ha so much for that instantaneous thingy i guess huh
what you bless will be blessed, and what you curse will be cursed which i'm sure is in the NT somewhere, Bsearch is only burping up Gen 12:3 right now, so the italics are conditional at the moment

the point being i cannot wholeheartedly endorse your statement of absolute truth at this time, although there is something still not right in my perception here either prolly, and you might be entirely correct
word.

being as how we found the world again just now maybe we can find how we slay the Lamb in the process, i guess when we "forget our first love."

I was thinking of this...

Rom. 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.