The Rapture: Too Good to Be True?

[Enoch111]

Do you think Paradise empties and comes to earth at your pre-trib rapture?

Let's speak of the New Jerusalem (even though Paradise is in fact in the New Jerusalem). All the saints who have passed on since Abel are presently there, including all Christian believers. IOW their souls and spirits are there. At the Resurrection/Rapture (which is before the Tribulation) Christ will bring these saints with Him to received immortal, glorified bodies. But they will return to Heaven along with the raptured saints, and everything will happen in nanoseconds ("in the twinkling of an eye"). Heaven (the New Jerusalem) is the eternal home of the saints, and God and Christ have prepared mansions for all. God has also prepared an eternal inheritance for each one.

 

[Davy]

Here I thought you were Amil. Are you saying you are not? I have constantly portrayed the 1,000 years come after the Second Coming. I have disagreement with you, because you lump the Second Coming at one single event like Amil do. Those pre-tribbers you hate with a passion, are only half wrong. You are 100% wrong. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, and only the 6th Seal. Armageddon happens after Satan's 42 months, but is not the Second Coming. Those pre-trib people place the Second Coming at the wrong time.

Of course I am NOT Amil. But neither am I Pre-trib. I am Post-trib, Pre-Mill, like the 1st century Church fathers were, because that is how God's Word is written about it.

And I don't HATE pre-tribbers, I have friends that are Pre-trib. What I HATE is those men who came up with that LIE, and those fake preachers who rape old folk's pocket books using the pre-trib lie, and they know they're doing that too!

There are only 2 comings of Christ prophesied in God's written Word, not 3 like the false pre-trib rapture doctrine preaches. That is in Zechariah 9:9-10. Christ's 2nd coming is the ONLY event of His future return, and gathering of His faithful Church. Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and Apostles Paul and Peter both said the "day of the Lord" happens "as a thief in the night" and is about the very last day of this world (Revelation 16:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3; 2 Peter 3:10).

The "day of the Lord" the false pre-trib rapture theory instead preaches begins prior to the great tribulation, which is a LIE, and those preachers pushing that LIE well know it. The "day of the Lord" event ONLY begins on the very LAST DAY of this world with Jesus' 2nd coming. That is when many events culminate very quickly upon this earth.

Even the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture reveals Christ's return to the Mount of Olives on the "day of the Lord" to begin His future "thousand years" reign with His elect. Think for a moment what that means, as it says He brings all the saints with Him there. Since man's works are burned off this earth by God's consuming fire on that "day of the Lord", that MUST mean that happens on the LAST DAY of this present world. In other words, it opposes any previous 'rapture' or coming of Christ prior to the great tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

Probably because the book of the Revelation is not all sequential. But like a newspaper story, describes the entire event and then goes on to separate visions about the parts of the event.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Revelation 6:12-14
Do you really believe this all occurs before the fall of Babylon the great? Revelation is a series of visions, not one continuous sequential vision. It can't be.

Yes, because Satan's 42 months are a different Babylon and government than current governments. In the 6th Seal every mountain and continent are moved out of their places. That is why by the 7th Trumpet, if the week gets split in half, we see a totally different government confederation appearing. One that has never existed before. But many just want to sit around and guess what is going to happen next. Revelation 6:14

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Timtofly]

So you reject the Bema seat judgment that Paul taught?

No. It is not mentioned in Revelation. Are you just going to guess and insert it into Revelation where you see fit?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, because Satan's 42 months are a different Babylon and government than current governments. In the 6th Seal every mountain and continent are moved out of their places. That is why by the 7th Trumpet, if the week gets split in half, we see a totally different government confederation appearing. One that has never existed before. But many just want to sit around and guess what is going to happen next. Revelation 6:14

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Interesting, but not found in scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

You think paradise is an invisible place around us full of people? Are they resurrected in glorified bodies?
Do they sit and eat with Abraham as souls without bodies?

No, I think it is the city Abraham looked for, but had to wait until the Cross.

Revelation 7:15-17

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

There are palm trees as well, verse 9

 

[Timtofly]

This is very imaginative. So the call to repentance throughout the judgements has nothing to do with the gospel and that multitude of saints that have been washed in His blood aren't Christians at all?
All I have to do to live and reign with Christ is have my head lopped off and I'm instantly perfected?
Who wouldn't prefer that to a life of struggles, trials, and arguments with folks who don't understand scripture?

The church is gone before the 7th Seal is opened. Are you not redeemed now? Are you waiting to accept Jesus until after the Second Coming? The church is not choosing between the mark and having a head chopped off. That is the whole point of the church not being here.

Not sure why many want to drag the church through the muck and the mire?

 

[michaelvpardo]

No. It is not mentioned in Revelation. Are you just going to guess and insert it into Revelation where you see fit?

This was written to the Gentile Christian church at Corinth:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10
I don't read the original languages, but the judgment seat of Christ obviously isn't the cross. So, why don't you believe the word of God?

 

[michaelvpardo]

The church is gone before the 7th Seal is opened. Are you not redeemed now? Are you waiting to accept Jesus until after the Second Coming? The church is not choosing between the mark and having a head chopped off. That is the whole point of the church not being here.

Not sure why many want to drag the church through the muck and the mire?

Only Christians believe that we were saved to minister to the lost. Why do you think God saves people?
You do know that the "woes" are trials or "tribulation ", right?

 

[Timtofly]

Even the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture reveals Christ's return to the Mount of Olives on the "day of the Lord" to begin His future "thousand years" reign with His elect. Think for a moment what that means, as it says He brings all the saints with Him there. Since man's works are burned off this earth by God's consuming fire on that "day of the Lord", that MUST mean that happens on the LAST DAY of this present world. In other words, it opposes any previous 'rapture' or coming of Christ prior to the great tribulation.

Revelation 19 has Jesus coming to Armageddon. That is not coming to the Mount of Olives. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is Jesus as Prince coming to the Mount of Olives. He will then enter Jerusalem to set up His glorious throne.

The throne that at the 7th Trumpet, Satan wants to sit on and rule the world. This all happens 42 months before Armageddon in Revelation 19.

You do not allow for Satan's 42 months in this "last day" of yours.

If you accept 42 months, then Armageddon is not a thief in the night moment. All the armies on earth are sitting there waiting to fight Jesus.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Revelation 19 has Jesus coming to Armageddon. That is not coming to the Mount of Olives. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is Jesus as Prince coming to the Mount of Olives. He will then enter Jerusalem to set up His glorious throne.

The throne that at the 7th Trumpet, Satan wants to sit on and rule the world. This all happens 42 months before Armageddon in Revelation 19.

You do not allow for Satan's 42 months in this "last day" of yours.

If you accept 42 months, then Armageddon is not a thief in the night moment. All the armies on earth are sitting there waiting to fight Jesus.

Jesus is only coming as a thief in the night to those not waiting for His return. The point of His parable is the suddenness of His arrival. People won't be expecting it and will be saying "peace and safety" (under the reign of the Antichrist.) The church was instructed to be watching and waiting.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, because Satan's 42 months are a different Babylon and government than current governments. In the 6th Seal every mountain and continent are moved out of their places. That is why by the 7th Trumpet, if the week gets split in half, we see a totally different government confederation appearing. One that has never existed before. But many just want to sit around and guess what is going to happen next. Revelation 6:14

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

So someone's going to build a new Babylon after the sky is rolled up like a scroll and a cataclysm displaces all the mountains and islands? In what, 7 years?

 

[Timtofly]

Interesting, but not found in scripture.

Of course it is found in Scripture: Revelation 13:1-3

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

 

[Timtofly]

This was written to the Gentile Christian church at Corinth:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10
I don't read the original languages, but the judgment seat of Christ obviously isn't the cross. So, why don't you believe the word of God?

I never said it was. I said the Judgments the church escapes are the Trumpets, Thunders, and Vials. The bema seat is not found in the book of Revelation. Paul says it happens after the 6th Seal, because it is after the Second Coming. Are you going to assign it to one of the Trumpets, Thunders, or vials?

 

[Timtofly]

Only Christians believe that we were saved to minister to the lost. Why do you think God saves people?
You do know that the "woes" are trials or "tribulation ", right?

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest. All of Adam's flesh will die, all 8 billion currently alive, one way or the other. It is the end of the 6,000 years of sin given to Adam and his descendants. This is the end. The church has had near 4,000 years to win the lost. That was not going to keep going on forever. Since Abraham, God has reached out to lost souls. This is the last generation.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is only coming as a thief in the night to those not waiting for His return. The point of His parable is the suddenness of His arrival. People won't be expecting it and will be saying "peace and safety" (under the reign of the Antichrist.) The church was instructed to be watching and waiting.

So the army waiting at Armageddon to be destroyed is who or what? Jesus' Second Coming will surprise even those of the church waiting for Armageddon, evidently.

 

[Timtofly]

So someone's going to build a new Babylon after the sky is rolled up like a scroll and a cataclysm displaces all the mountains and islands? In what, 7 years?

Nope, 1 day. You don't think Satan has this figured out and is waiting for the go ahead from God?

No one knows how long the Trumpets and Thunders will take. John does not tell us. We are only given one 5 month period. Every one has been taught not to look for Jesus, but look for an AC. Can you give me one verse in Revelation that tells us to do that?

At the 6th Seal Jesus comes as Prince to sit on His glorious throne in Jerusalem. The one the FP and Satan will have during the 42 months. That throne is set up by God, not humans. And the 7th Trumpet is when this is all decided. But Jesus as Prince will have already sat in judgment over the sheep and goats, before Satan's 42 months. Revelation 11:1-2

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The Temple and throne is already set up before the 7th Trumpet even sounds. It was set up at the 6th Seal. When the 7th Trumpet sounds, God will either declare the harvest over, or extend it for 42 months. This extension is Daniel 9:27. The week of days of the 7th Trumpet is this set of 7. By Wednesday, Satan will know if he gets that 42 months of utter desolation where he and the FP will set up the AoD. It will not take him long to take over. Revelation 13:5-8

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

This is the only time of utter desolation per Daniel 9:27.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 19 has Jesus coming to Armageddon. That is not coming to the Mount of Olives. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is Jesus as Prince coming to the Mount of Olives. He will then enter Jerusalem to set up His glorious throne.

The throne that at the 7th Trumpet, Satan wants to sit on and rule the world. This all happens 42 months before Armageddon in Revelation 19.

You do not allow for Satan's 42 months in this "last day" of yours.

If you accept 42 months, then Armageddon is not a thief in the night moment. All the armies on earth are sitting there waiting to fight Jesus.

Armageddon is the name of the final battle, taken from the name of the hill Megiddo, but not the actual place He returns. Zechariah 14 tells us He returns to the Mount of Olives where He ascended from per Acts 1.

The one and ONLY return of Jesus is per the Zechariah 14 Scripture on the "day of the Lord", and that's it. That is when He gathers His Church also on that last day of this world. He does NOT come prior to the great trib. He showed His coming is AFTER the tribulation in His Olivet discourse which directly parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5. And that is... the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing, the time of the 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which is God's Wrath on the last day.

I do allow for the "dragon" 42 months reign of Revelation 13. That happens on the FIRST part of the 6th Seal, which is about the stars of heaven falling to earth in relation to the 'untimely figs'. An untimely fig is a fig that grows in winter and falls off in the spring; it's an early fig. It represents the false-Messiah and his that come first, before Jesus returns. Starting at Revelation 6:14-17 is about Jesus' coming on the last day. The 42 months of the dragon's reign happens on that first part of the 6th Seal, and on the 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (the real meaning of 666).

 

[GEN2REV]

The saints that are martyrs of the great tribulation are identified as those who will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Are you saying that the church doesn't live and reign with Christ, but are judged in the second resurrection?

There is no "Second Resurrection."

Produce any verse that clearly states "Second Resurrection."

Why would Jesus destroy all sinners and all wickedness if He planned to raise it/them back up anyway?

Matthew 24:29-31 only speaks of Jesus gathering His elect. Nothing at all about raising any sinful dead.

Isaiah 13:9-11 tells us Jesus destroys the world and all sinners.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us that He raises the dead in Christ first, then those who are still alive at that time are caught up to Him in the sky. No mention at all of raising of the wicked.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 tells us when Jesus comes, He destroys everything and takes vengeance on them that know Him not. Nothing about raising them again after.

You can't carry, and serve, a doctrine that is based on a single passage.

You have stated this yourself.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I never said it was. I said the Judgments the church escapes are the Trumpets, Thunders, and Vials. The bema seat is not found in the book of Revelation. Paul says it happens after the 6th Seal, because it is after the Second Coming. Are you going to assign it to one of the Trumpets, Thunders, or vials?

I'm not assigning or even teaching anything, just addressing obvious disbelief.