The wrong Cross

[Episkopos]

The OP is about a return to lawlessness because of grace. Gentiles were/are heathens that were not subject to the law. So for a lawless grace to be offered to these would be just more of the same lawlessness. Hence the popularity of this kind of gospel. All you have to do is...♪ act naturally. ♪ But there's no grace in this...it's all just the flesh at work.


But grace is the power to DO the law. Those that are IN Christ have the power over sin the way they who enter an aircraft have power over the law of gravity. As long as you are IN Christ you walk in His perfection and victory. There is no condemnation for they who are IN Christ who walk by the Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

From Romans 2:13, Paul begins down a line of reasoning that leads him to a different conclusion in Romans 3:28.

It is an interesting study to see how God changed Paul's mind through the logic that is represented in the in-between verses.

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 7:8, the element of sin takes advantage of the law in order to produce in you all manner of concupiscence.

Romans 7:5, the motions of sins, which bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law.

If you can get a hold of these truths it may even change your life...you will even begin to have victory over sin.

See the following:

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

 

[FollowHim]

The NT says the Holy Spirit is your teacher.
The NT says that Jesus gives "teachers"..
Im one..
But thats ok, followhim...
You just do it the way you feel you should, never thinking about it much, and most of all, dont let truth or facts stand in your way.

im out.


<B><

Lol, you never began.
I wonder if you even recognise our emotional lives..... I am beginning to see Jesus address who we are at this emotional and spiritual level, to know we are loved through the cross.

Some of the most "spiritual" people hate their emotional reality because it does not match there outward beliefs. Now if you have something to share on this,amen, if not, a clanging gong.....

 

[Behold]

@Behold Peter and John in their Epistles - as well as Paul, indeed - show that it's faith in the precious blood that is essential among those who claim to believe in the Son of God; there is no admixture of law-keeping or human merit permissible.

Thank you for agreeing with my Thread.
As i said..
The "wrong cross" is trying to keep yourself saved.
= LEGALISM.
= The gospel of the SELF Savor.

 

[Behold]

Lol, you never began.
I wonder if you even recognise our emotional lives.....

Try to stay on the Thread's topic.
"the wrong cross".
= Legalism.
= the gospel of self effort

 

[Behold]

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)

No,
The justified are those who are the same as Abraham.
Paul's gospel is..."Justification by FAITH", no law, no commandment keeping, no self effort.
Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him (counted to him, or imputed to him) as Righteousness.

See, you can be a doer of the law, and burn in the lake of fire.
Many will.
You dont understand this, because your gospel is "works". (self effort).

See, you'll quote a verse about Grace, then you'll contradict it with another one about works.
You're confused, and as i told you..
I can teach you, but i can't learn it for you, episkopos.

 

[Behold]

The OP is about a return to lawlessness because of grace.

Ive noticed that you are starting to teach some of what im teaching.
This is good, as its normally what happens when i show up on a Forum.
The issue you have, is that you are still blending in your self righteousness, using verses that talk about works and law, while you are also quoting some verses about Grace that you see me teaching and teaching.
Lets hope that you find you way past your legalism, if possible.
Keep reading me.
Its helping you, episkopos.

 

[FollowHim]

Try to stay on the Thread's topic.
"the wrong cross".
= Legalism.
= the gospel of self effort

I think you have missed the key issue.
The message of the cross heals and speaks to our hearts and our emotional envelope. Legalism believes by appearing "good" has value even when it is hypocritical. But without transformation and connection with God through our faith and the Holy Spirit, everything else is pointless.

The fruit of this transformation is obedience to the law, slaves to righteousness as Paul put it. An aspect of this is choice, sowing to the Spirit and not to the flesh. God bless you

 

[Episkopos]

Ive noticed that you are starting to teach some of what im teaching.
This is good, as its normally what happens when i show up on a Forum.
The issue you have, is that you are still blending in your self righteousness, using verses that talk about works and law, while you are also quoting some verses about Grace that you see me teaching and teaching.
Lets hope that you find you way past your legalism, if possible.
Keep reading me.
Its helping you, episkopos.

Time for your meds. Ok Get along to bed now.

 

[justbyfaith]

Time for your meds. Ok Get along to bed now.

I find that, most often, people who are accused of being mentally ill today over their doctrine are being persecuted for righteousness' sake.

Therefore they are on the right track.

@Behold, while I don't agree with his every word, does have a lot of good things to say. You should listen to him rather than dismissing his words out of hand.

You may find on your day of judgment that the thing you rejected coming from his keyboard might have been the very thing that would have saved you, had you received it.

 

[FollowHim]

Try to stay on the Thread's topic.
"the wrong cross".
= Legalism.
= the gospel of self effort

Your proposition is victory over sin comes from belief once you are saved it can never be lost.

The main reason believers object to the theology is the opposite, people lose their desire to love and change, and condemn righteous walking as evil self righteousness. Worse still it ignores love bringing victory to the heart, turning and changing everything.

The aspect that is true once you see the cross and Jesus the Messiah dying for us, nothing remains the same. In a sense once we are transformed, the light means we never go back. But it is through faith seeing love die.

Jesus described this as the reality that draws all men to him. It is what changes us and brings victory. Emotionally this is the same as saying once we see Jesus as He is we can never be lost. But factually scripture warns us the seeing can become blind, what is certain can become doubted, so we must be careful and walk faithfully, sowing to the Spirit and not the flesh. God bless you

 

[mjrhealth]

The main reason believers object to the theology is the opposite, people lose their desire to love and change, and condemn righteous walking as evil self righteousness. Worse still it ignores love bringing victory to the heart, turning and changing everything.

You still miss the point. In Christ there is no sin. It is finished. It is men who sit there trying to boast of How good they are, when it was Christ who made us good. It doesnt matter how "good" you think you are, if not for Gods grace you would die. But how christians love to condemn those who dont live up to there standards. It is a good thing we are not judged by the standards men set, if it where so, wed all be dead in our sins.

 

[FollowHim]

You still miss the point. In Christ there is no sin. It is finished. It is men who sit there trying to boast of How good they are, when it was Christ who made us good. It doesnt matter how "good" you think you are, if not for Gods grace you would die. But how christians love to condemn those who dont live up to there standards. It is a good thing we are not judged by the standards men set, if it where so, wed all be dead in our sins.

I do not miss this point, it is poison to me. In a lost but "nice" society with lots of help, a lot gets missed.

Sin is OCD politeness, which today is becoming sleep with anyone, it's just sex, take drugs, it's just a high, lie about everything, it's just a sales pitch.

While everything is "safe" it seems innocent. When things go south, it is death.

I am interested in change in the heart, transformation, a new creation, being real, knowing Jesus daily, in our morning, our afternoon and our evening. This is love at work changing our emotional conclusions and intellectual realities. God bless you

 

[mjrhealth]

Sin is OCD politeness, which today is becoming sleep with anyone, it's just sex, take drugs, it's just a high, lie about everything, it's just a sales pitch.

There is a lot more to "sin" than all the things you seem to have issues with. Jesus said you just need to think and you have sinned, I guess you dont think a lot. Nice to add teh big ones make you look so good,

 

[FollowHim]

There is a lot more to "sin" than all the things you seem to have issues with. Jesus said you just need to think and you have sinned, I guess you dont think a lot. Nice to add teh big ones make you look so good,

Is thinking sin? This is a dangerous boundary to cross. Sin is not our enemy, our enemy is our emotional justification of hurt against others because we have been hurt. It is the breaking of boundaries which should not be crossed which lead to harm to others, betrayal and death.

Jesus pointed to the real seeds of sinful behaviour, in our hearts and minds. It is where we need love working which neutralises and channels these drives into appropriate and healthy directions.

Jesus's criticism of the pharisees was not their teaching but their hypocrisy, not cleansing their hearts and letting love, forgiveness, justice and faithfulness reign, but being full of greed and self indulgence.

Sin is the fruit of the heart, it causes damage one individual to another, but its solution is changing who we are within.
The whole spiritual discussion God is having with us, is we need to know Him, be filled with the Holy Spirit and follow His ways.

It changes our emotional conclusions, our intellectual conclusions and transforms us into the likeness of Jesus.
Capitulation to sin, is just saying one has never been in the quiet place, cleansed and made pure with the Lord, or had the faith to believe this is possible. And without this faith one can never be saved or know God. God bless you

 

[Episkopos]

I find that, most often, people who are accused of being mentally ill today over their doctrine are being persecuted for righteousness' sake.

Therefore they are on the right track.

@Behold, while I don't agree with his every word, does have a lot of good things to say. You should listen to him rather than dismissing his words out of hand.

You may find on your day of judgment that the thing you rejected coming from his keyboard might have been the very thing that would have saved you, had you received it.

It may surprise you that many people get on these kinds of forums while being high as a kite, drunk, and in every other unbalanced state imaginable. We are to be filled with the Spirit...not drunk with wine.

So it may help you to realize this. Don't take every crackpot theory seriously. Especially a theory that is meant to lower grace...actually trample it....to where there is no possibility for anything holy.

So the very opposite is true.

People who deal unrighteously with grace are due for the most severe punishment. And they who consider themselves as teachers of said unrighteousness...well that is the worst possible scenario of all.

Modern doctrines are so confused. And fringe people will take that confusion and embrace it. Most people only pretend to understand the bible, the kingdom and the gospel. They pretend to understand dwelling in a heavenly place or what it means to be under grace.

Grace brings with it a harder judgment. Abusing grace is worse than abusing the law. So there are a lot of unqualified people doing great harm to the truth..and most people think it's ok. But not God. His fierce wrath will be unveiled against those who trample holy things without the requisite fear and trembling.

Dabblers and dilettantes have nothing to add of any value but to further muddy the waters for they who are genuinely trying to understand God's ways.

God is NOT...a Candyman who gives out treats to the carnal man for our vote of confidence. He does not favour rich or middle-class Westerners as we seem to think. But God does allow people to be deluded into believing a lie if you are trying to exploit God for your own gain. He has crafted a way that makes sense but that catches people of iniquity into a net. He is crafty towards they who are crafty with Him. All seems well until it isn't any more.

 

[FollowHim]

There is a lot more to "sin" than all the things you seem to have issues with. Jesus said you just need to think and you have sinned, I guess you dont think a lot. Nice to add teh big ones make you look so good,

"There is a lot more to "sin" than all the things you seem to have issues with"

There is an arrogance here which supposes everyone is bound to sin the whole of their lives. It suggests Jesus and the cross cannot cleanse and make pure anyone, a real statement of unbelief in the cross and its meaning.

If God can forgive us if we just acknowledge Jesus, why the cross and why is the bible is so big, and why not end the world after Jesus and start the Kingdom from there on? Because the issues are not simple, and growing here or in the Kingdom is no different.

Unbelievers are bound to sin, prisoners to their emotional states and their behaviour patterns which they cannot shake, understand or control.
Praise the Lord that the cross breaks the power of sin and death, Amen.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yet, i have not stated, implied, or insinuated that "God's law must be done away with".
So, who are you trying to correct?
Are you correcting yourself?

Listen, Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and Salvation comes as "Grace through faith, without works".

Salvation is a GIFT.
Its not earned, and its not kept by any person who is born again.
its given by God as a GIFT, and then its KEPT by God as His faithfulness.

How does that happen?
Because when we are saved, we become a living and eternal part of GOD Himself.
We are born again INTO God's Spirit, and we become a part of Him, and He becomes, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".
The term "in Christ" means "ONE" with God and Christ......= Spiritually CONNECTED.
WE dont cause that, and we can't stop it from BEING eternal once it has happened.

The Law and Commandments are Holy.
But they are against us, because we are not of ourselves able to keep them perfectly.
If we did, it would not matter, as Paul kept them, then taught that this is MEANINGLESS "dung". Philippians 3
= That there is no real righteousness gained by our behavior, or lifestyle, or commandment keeping.
The remedy for our situation of being UNRIGHTEOUS.....this issue we have with being a sinner who can't of themselves gain any Righteousness..is that God gives us HIS from the CROSS. = SALVATION = Final answer.

"The Gift of Righteousness".....>= "as Christ is, so are the born again IN THIS WORLD".. We the born again are = "The righteousness of God, in Christ". = God does all this.
We do none of it of ourselves.
God GIVES righteousness and we become it when we are born again as a "NEW CREATION IN CHRIST"

"God who BEGAN salvation in the born again, will HIMSELF be Faithful to complete it".

Complete WHAT?

= OUR SALVATION......from beginning to end.

God Starts it with the BLOOD of Jesus and ends it with BLOOD of Jesus... = The Cross = "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross".

"The blood of Jesus that SAVED YOU< = KEEPS YOU SAVED".

Paul taught that it was meaningless dung to not murder? Or did Paul teach the spirit of the law and men then saw Gods holy standard and then men realized that it was impossible for men? Because most people will outwardly keep the law to not murder for all of their lives and it is not dung to do so, but every person will have anger in their heart sometime.

Paul was after winning Christ. He spoke of a higher calling that he pressed forward toward. He was after the prize - he wanted to abide/remain in Christ, which is to not sin at ALL. He counted all his own efforts as dung compared to THAT prize. He didnt try to mix the right that man can do with the righteousness/holiness of God.

But you certainly arent going to ever abide in Christ, walking in the Spirit, by circumventing, or getting rid of, the law of God. Do you think Jesus was trying to get rid of the law of God when He taught that anger in your heart is to have already murdered? No, He wasn't trying to do away with Gods law. A man who doesnt murder outwardly is doing the righteousness that a man can do. To not even murder in your heart, EVER, is not within a mans power but is only possible when and if he walks in the Spirit in holiness.

Paul wasn't saying one must stop trying to not murder men in order to not murder men. He wasnt saying that in order to not commit adultery one must stop trying to not commit adultery.

It isnt bad to not shoot and kill someone. But it's not holiness unless you dont even do it in your heart, which is impossible for men. So Paul speaks of the higher calling, a walk in holiness.

 

[Behold]

The fruit of this transformation is obedience to the law, slaves to righteousness as Paul put it. God bless you

No,
the fruit of transformation is to become more and more like the Love of God.
Transformation is this....>"it is no longer i who live but Christ who lives IN ME".
Being conformed into the image of Jesus, is the progressive fruit of transformation.
Growing up into the fullness of the stature of Christ, is where we are to end up, as this is the ultimate "fruit", of transformation.