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Tongues

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 11, 2022.

  1. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Okay

    Gnosticism is a cult in Christianity, is it not? Gnosticism is known as secret knowledge or hidden knowledge. Monasteries where they were known at where the scriptures were collecting dusts, is because they spent most of their times in praying & fasting speaking in tongues for private use.

    One can say Paul was rebuking them here for using tongues for self edification wresting his words out of context for why prophesy was better than tongues.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;......

    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    The woman across the street was not pursuing it, but been around people that talked about it. That is like evil communications corrupts good habits. She was reading her Bible one day in the kitchen and suddenly as she puts it, the Holy spirit came over her and she began to speak in tongues and then she said that was when she was saved because she got the Holy Spirit & tongues all at once.

    Then I asked her what she was reading that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant and then it don on her. She began to share with her pastor what had happened because she had been a believer most of her life. The pastor pointed to the Book of Acts but she did not say exactly where to me. Then she began to share that others had similar experiences of doing every day things when that had happened to them but she rolled her eyes at it in disbelief but did not care to share why she was rolling her eyes at that report.

    This is why the apostle John said not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring. 1 John 4:1-6 Most of the time, the initial encounter will spark others to hype it up to chase after.

    As it is, that woman was not seeking that but she been around people that talked about it. Subliminal? On the back of her mind?

    At any rate, she used that encounter to change her testimony as to when she was saved. Even though she did not believe that "if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and therefore you are not saved," it would be hard to stop those from using her testimony that do preach that.

    May God cause the increase. I know it is not in my power to convince you of anything, especially when you want to believe praying in tongues is of God.
     
  2. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    What good would praying with one's own spirit do? Or singing with one's own spirit? I have to say here, though I don't mean to sound offensive, that you are lending yourself to an occultic interpretation of the word rather than a Christian one. We were not commanded to operate in our own spirit, nor be baptized in our own spirit, nor speak in our own spirit, nor walk in our own spirit. This is foreign to New Testament theology, but kindred to witchcraft and occultism. Witches travel in spirit by means of things like astral projection. In Spirit-filled Christianity, nothing is done in or by "our" spirit. We are baptized into the Holy Spirit, and in Him we move, and live, and have our being.

    That would be my first response. My second would be, if Paul spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians did, and this was the gift they were primarily operating in at the expense of greater gifts, then Paul must have been praying in tongues a LOT, like incessantly. And if he did all this praying in tongues for ministry's sake alone, out in the world, then he must have had an interpreter working with him continuously when doing evangelism. Moreover, his speaking in tongues in ministry outside the church would have been to people of other tongues who understood him, so that he alone was the one who alone needed the interpreter.

    Where does the New Testament or Church tradition say that Paul placed this heavy an involvement in the ministry of tongues? It's not recorded in Acts at all. You would think that there would be mention of it at least once or twice if this was such a dominant part of his ministry, yes?
     
  3. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Scripture does report women in the missionary field.

    God even raised up a female prophet in the O.T. when there was no man to serve Him when Israel got so bad. I do not believe that one ever spoke in the Temple. I cannot recall her yet? I think Deborah? Did a search.

    Judges 4:1And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead. 2 And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3 And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. 4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. 8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. 9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

    She never spoke in the Temple but dwelt under a palm tree for when and where they sought judgment from the Lord from her.
     
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Correct.
    Umm... no. This sounds like a reference to movements within later Christianity, but I'm not sure which sect you are talking about here specifically.
    No, not related. Those passages were discussing different things than tongues...

    Let me ask you this, and maybe this will help with the discussion: From what personal perspective are you approaching the issue of tongues? Your looking to apply texts to the issue that don't really address it suggests you have a strong aversion to it. I do agree with you that there are false demonstrations of tongues - I think everyone on this thread probably does - but what perspective are you coming from that you believe there is no such thing as the genuine gift anymore? That's the main difference between yourself and most of the people you are debating with on this thread.
    Ok, maybe this answers it right here. And no, she would be incorrect. We are born of incorruptible seed by the word of God, which has the power to save. Not through the baptism.
    Ok, only suppose that she had just been going through the motions? Some people don't really come alive until they actually experience God through the outpouring. It's like it's mostly make-believe to them until they experience Him through the baptism. My experience wasn't completely like that - I knew I had a strong relationship with Christ Jesus already - but the baptism in the Holy Spirit was like, "Oh, THAT Holy Spirit." Suddenly when I read passages in Acts, the Holy Spirit was not some strange entity or power that I was reading about, He was Someone I had now experienced.

    I need to bounce out again, but good discussion.

    God bless,
    - H
     
  5. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    May the Lod help me to clarify but you do need to address that Paul said it was his spirit that was praying.

    1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    Imagine Paul is speaking in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit. Now Paul desiring to know what that tongue is saying, he is praying that someone may interpret that tongue so he may understand it and that tongue would be fruitful to himself. Just as he sings with the spirit and understand what is being sung, so will he pray with the spirit to understand what that tongue is saying.

    Yet he was exhorting believer that if they seek a spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts for the edification of the church.

    1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...... 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

    Yet somehow, believers come away from reading that chapter as if Paul does not know what he is talking about and seek tongues for private use more because it is so much better than prophesy. How can that not come across to me that believers are reading tongues for private use into it?

    Yet believers believe tongues are for private use as a ministry onto itself albeit no interpretation to be able to know what that tongue is actually doing. Would God bother to engage in a fruitless endeavor?

    Is God partial for denying all believers of having tongues for private use? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit pray in tongues in all believers?

    Still do not see anything wrong with this picture?
     
  6. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Should you not tell me what it is talking about then if not what I had applied it to mean?

    I believe in God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people in their native foreign tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:20-21

    I do not believe God's gift of tongues are for private use. I see most of the testimonies for that kind of tongue as gained by having a phenomenal supernatural encounter with a spirit that brought that tongue. That in turn leads to that apostate calling for others to seek after it.

    There is such a thing as another baptism with the holy Ghost by that sign of tongue which is known now as another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues. Tongues for private use has been linked to that phenomenon and it is apostasy because there is no receiving the Holy Spirit again after salvation. If believers believe the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again apart from salvation for that sign of tongue, God will take the restrainer away for how they that err, are suffering a thief to break through, thus God permitting that strong delusion to occur.

    Jesus told Nicodemus that after His ascension which is after His crucifixion, when ever anyone believes in Him they get born again and have everlasting life.

    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Plus Paul says the same thing;

    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    If you consider what the Holy Spirit does by keeping your focus on the Son, the Bridegroom, in living that reconciled relationship with God the father thru Jesus Christ, then the spirit of the antichrist would do what when the meaning of antichrist in scripture means "instead of Christ" or to be precise "instead of the Son"?

    The Holy Spirit in us would never draw attention to Himself but keep pointing us to the Son.

    The spirit of the antichrist would draw attention to themselves thus instead of the Son.

    What exactly did that supernatural encounter do, but draw your attention to what you thought was the holy Spirit when it wasn't?
     
  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Apostate calling... You wouldn't happen to be Golgotha over at CF.net, would you? :)
    Ok, now here is where you want to be very careful. I know you have issues with schizophrenia, and I see you as sincerely trying to seek the Lord and serve him, but I must warn you as a brother here: Of all physical and mental ailments where demonic spirits are known to lay behind the condition, schizophrenia is the most common by far. The Lord can deliver you if you continue seeking Him for it, but what you absolutely do not under any circumstances want to do so get seduced in your ignorance into calling the Holy Spirit evil. This would be a colossal mistake. It is one thing to debate doctrine with others, but making the decision to call the Spirit others walk in who disagree with you "evil" could end up costing you more than maybe you truly realize.

    I'm going to end the conversation with you here because I don't want to see that happen, but please consider what I'm saying, and its implications.

    God bless,
    - H
     
  8. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    Or women. LOL Anyway, most everything in the book I received through hearing God's voice. There was only one thing received from man, and that was that the tongues of Mark 16 and of 1 Cor. 12 are two different gifts of tongues. That's all. From there God taught me the particulars that they sound the same, but the direction of the Spirit is TO God in the first, and FROM God in the second. And only the second requires interpretation.
     
  9. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    That’s a lot of words just to have it wrong.

    Simon saw that laying on of hands imparted the Holy Spirit.

    The 120 believers were already saved by faith, before the Holy Spirit fell on them, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, at Pentecost.

    You have a theory, but I have experience, because I was absolutely born again and saved before hands were laid on me, and just like Jesus felt Dunamis power leave His body to heal the woman with the issue of blood, I felt the Holy Spirit Dunamis power that Jesus said believers get after the Holy Ghost comes upon them, per Acts 1:8 enter me.

    That’s how it worked then, and it’s how it works now.

    Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
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  10. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Yes. Someone hacked my folks' computer and tricked me into hitting a small display descending from the browser to run a virus scan on McAfee and then reported that it cleaned 9 viruses out of the computer & then offered an advertisement when my folks already had it with a countdown to it to get it. While I was posting my last post, and the time ran out, Edge notification began sending porn pics through it. I hit it to send it away out of view and then it sent another one. Eventually I had to turn off Edge notifications in dealing with it, but I am not going in that forum again. I had dreams warning me not to go in there any more and to leave it, for they were not hearing me, but I peeked in there for a little bit, not sure if the dreams was from the Lord, and I took the incident as a sign from the Lord that He really did want me to leave.

    I believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was about hearing voices as it was described as that messenger of Satan that buffet him in the flesh. This was given him so people would not think of him higher than he ought to think because of all the revelation that came by him.

    The manifestations of the Holy Spirit will not mimic the works of darkness. If we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, then that which is know of the devil before Pentecost cannot be appearing in the churches, including speaking in gibberish nonsense.



    Explain how you test the spirits & the tongues they bring as per Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:1-6 - King James Version if you really believe that.

    Even Jesus shared the difference between how the world will receive spirits and the real indwelling Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  11. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Scripture is not shy about when new believers speak in tongues and since the area was all Samaritans, why speak in tongues then? That is why I discern they were not speaking in tongues.

    What did Simon saw that led him to be tempted to buy the power from Peter & John of the laying on of hands to give the Holy Ghost? It did not say. But there is no reason to manifest tongues when they all spoke the same language for tongues to serve as a sign to unbelievers when they were all following Philip around because they did believe.

    So what did Simon see? I do not know, and neither do you, but I do know it wasn't tongues. I understand why you would think that, but no.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What I know is that per Acts 2 EVERYONE... present heard in THEIR OWN LANGUAGE OF BIRTH. And God's Word IS... THE MEASURE.

    So that means if you go to a foreign people and don't speak their language, and God gives you to speak and they hear in their OWN language, then THAT... is the true manifestation of the cloven tongue of Pentecost per Acts 2.
     
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  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    :p Funny!
     
  14. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Salvation vs. gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit wishes. 1 Corinthians 12:11. We can clearly see that the Holy Spirit can distribute as he wills. This notion of receiving the Holy Spirit more than once is misleading.
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    It's not funny, Davy.

    The man has serious problems.
     
  16. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    It took me awhile but I was starting to see this is true.
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    We are not told specifically that they spoke in tongues, but it is inferred from the fact that Simon saw something which convinced him that the Holy Spirit had come upon the Samaritans also.
     
  18. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    But what would be the point for speaking in tongues to serve as a sign towards unbelievers when they were all potential believers speaking the same language as native to the area?

    I thank you for acknowledging it did not specifically stated that, and I understand your point of view, but that would mean tongues is not serving for the purpose it was sent for as a sign to foreign unbelievers in their midst. So I am having trouble assuming it was tongues that Simon had seen.
     
  19. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Active Member

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    Amd, of course that happens today (unless you're ready to write off missionaries as bald faced LIARS).

    But if you'd care to be HONEST Biblically, you should probably read 1 Cor 14, where additional aspects of the charisma of Tongues are presented.
     
  20. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    When the topic of tongues comes up, I like to remind people what Paul said about tongues:

    [27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
    [28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 RSV
     
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