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Tongues

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 11, 2022.

  1. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Shes a Baptist. She has never said one word about tongues in her teaching, and when I heard her speak of how she was called into the teaching ministry, she said nothing whatsoever about tongues.
     
  2. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Paul said tongues are NOT a sign for the believer, but for the unbeliever.

    Tongues of course can’t be a sign FOR believers, because it’s a sign that FOLLOWS those who believe.

    No believer looks at tongues as a sign FOR them, but speaking IN tongues is the sign they are spirit filled.
     
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Seeing as how we are both on the same side in this particular debate, I'll put off that discussion for some time down the road maybe. But just for future reference, when looking strictly at the manuscript data, I don't think they would have a case. Those two verses are supported in every extant text we have to date.

    But carry on. Sorry I interrupted. :)
     
  4. FluffyYellowDuck

    FluffyYellowDuck Well-Known Member

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    I'll let Paul Washer talk then
     
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  5. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    That's what I said. Explain the verse. 1 Cor. 14:22 about tongues being a sign to the unbeliever.
     
  6. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    The United Pentecostal Church - not to be confused with regular Pentecostals, claim you must speak in tongues when water baptized, or you’re not saved - which is absolutely wrong.

    How many languages Paul spoke is irrelevant, because when he spoke in tongues, he had no idea what he was saying, as can be seen in various bible translations:

    1 Corinthians 14:14

    (KJV) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    (ESV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

    (ISV) For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive.

    (YLT) for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.

    (GNB) For if I pray in this way, my spirit prays indeed, but my mind has no part in it.

    (NET) If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive.

    (TPT) For if I am praying in a tongue, my spirit is engaged in prayer but I have no clear understanding of what is being said.

    1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    Paul states he prays both normally, with his understanding, and in tongues, with no understanding.
     
  7. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Paul said not to speak in tongues in church without an interpreter, yet so obviously prayed in tongues privately too, because he said when he prayed in the spirit, he had no understanding of what was being prayed:

    1 Corinthians 14:14

    (KJV) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    (ASV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    (ESV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

    (ISV) For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive.

    (YLT) for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.

    (GNB) For if I pray in this way, my spirit prays indeed, but my mind has no part in it.

    (NET) If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive.

    (TPT) For if I am praying in a tongue, my spirit is engaged in prayer but I have no understanding of what is being said.
     
  8. Lambano

    Lambano Well-Known Member

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    Since I was a little too subtle in my scripture references...

    In Matthew chapter 12, Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Would the Holy Spirit break the Lord's commandment by working on the Sabbath? So, they accused Jesus of casting out demons through Beelzebul. But the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath and has the sovereign right to do good works on the Sabbath.

    Similarly, would the Holy Spirit break the Lord's commandment by speaking through a faithful woman in church? So, you accuse my friend of speaking through an evil spirit (which I personally do not appreciate in the least). But the Son of Man is Lord of His Church and has the sovereign right to speak through whomever He pleases, and to do a good work in His Church.
     
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  9. Lambano

    Lambano Well-Known Member

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    God will have His witnesses. God is raising up faithful women to cover the shortage of good men. I don't think I can disagree with you.
     
  10. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Nobody else came to his house to have church service. Philip was just giving them a place to stay at.
     
  11. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I disagree. No point sharing scriptures when you are not reading them no addressing them for why I say what I say.
     
  12. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I'd prove the books by the scripture with Jesus Christ and not take them nor anything else at face value.

    1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    Reading most books on the gift of tongues is being taught by men.

    I could say I read books from Cessationists for why I believe, but I do not because I believe the scriptures about the gifts of the Spirit.

    The scripture I have referenced goes contrary to using tongues for private use for why I say that cannot be God's gift of tongues. Never.
     
  13. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that? The text reads:

    8 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. 10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ” 12 Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem.

    The Greek words translated "and those of that place" (καὶ οἱ ἐντόπιοι) mean literally "local residents" or "inhabitants of that region." The word doesn't suggest it was just the people he mentions in the passage.
     
  14. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Paul did not know what kind of disciples they were for why it was written "certain disciples" in Acts 19:1. This was written because there are 3 kinds of disciples in Paul's days; the disciples of the Pharisees, the disciples of John the Baptist's & the disciples of Jesus Christ.

    Luke 5:33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?

    That is why Paul had asked what water baptism they were under and it was John the Baptist's. They were not believers in Jesus Christ otherwise they would have been water baptized in Jesus's name. So Paul told then about Jesus Christ as being the One John the Baptist was talking about. Then they believed in Him and got water baptized in Jesus name and got born again of the Spirit.

    It was not written that they had spoken in tongues. There would be no need to speak in a foreign language because they were all Samaritans.



    Now try and convince me that those who preach that false teaching that "if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the holy Spirit and therefore you are not saved," cannot use what you just did in applying scripture in that way. Unless you believe as they do? If not, you do seem to come across as tongues should be following believers all the time and if not...? What?

    I believe God's gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people in their native foreign tongue, for why it will come with interpretation in the assembly.

    I do not believe God's gift of tongues can also be used for private use, especially when most testimonies have it gained by seeking another baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues as they used to give that ending to that apostate calling.

    Now see my concern for you in the scriptures below.

    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    That is Biblical proof that a supernatural tongue in gibberish nonsense was present in mediums & wizards wat before Pentecost. If we are to prove all things an abstain from all appearances of evil, God will never use His real gift of tongues and turn it around to be like their pagan supernatural tongue. How can sinners repent if the church speak the same way they have? How can churches know they had repented if they speak the same way the church does? Therefore God's gift of tongues are not for private use for why that supernatural tongue is not of Him at all.

    Another thing done by that apostate calling is how believers fall down in a loss of self control.

    Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

    That is what they get for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation.

    2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    All that falling down..& it doesn't stop at that "another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues". No. It also happens again and again and again in slain in the spirit phenomenon, holy laughter movement, Pensacola outpouring, Toronto's Blessings and even Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the Holy spirit falling on already saved believers for a miracle while causing them to fall back in confusion. All that is chaos a& confusion & disorderly which God is not the author of nor can He ever be as tongues for private use cannot be His gift of tongues.

    Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
     
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  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    My apologies, but I haven't been able to keep up with everyone else's posts, Christ4Me. But if you could, what is your interpretation of the following passage. More specifically, if you could, please define for me what you interpret the phrase "praying in tongues" to be referring to:

    13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
     
  16. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    The problem is.. although you can see me as doing that, but the real plainness of the text where it is a commandment from the Lord for why women do not speak in the assembly. So my reading of the text is in alignment with the Lord's command.

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

    37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

    I just do not see how you can align scripture to the Lord's commandment, but I can explain what is written as being in truth with the Lord's commandment even though you seem to be thinking I am going away from the reading of the text but how you are reading it to mean infers your belie while ignoring the Lord's commandment.

    There is even a rebuke to the church at Thyatira in the Book of Revelation for allowing a woman to teach in the assembly.

    Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

    20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    This woman taught & seduce believers into believing they can depart from faith in chasing after spirits, as in seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongues which is speaking the utter depths of Satan for which they speak.

    Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    Tell me what that church needs to do in order to repent & be ready to avoid being left behind at the rapture event?

    I'd say return to our first love, Jesus Christ, and chase no more after seducing spirits to receive after a sign, and shun using tongues for private use, and pray normally so we can know what we had prayed for and give the Father thanks in Jesus's name which is the will of God for us to do.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  17. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Because the commandment from the Lord is regarding the assembly where men are the head of the women even at home.

    1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

    Maybe then you can read these other references as aligning better as to why it is the commandment of the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
     
  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I haven't addressed those passages yet.
    I'm well aware of this passage. I've cited it in maybe 8-10 different Bible studies that I've written. But this is addressing a woman who was a Gnostic heretic, not simply a Christian woman, and it addresses her alone, not women in general. Different things.
    Ah, but see, I pray in tongues and should do so more regularly, not less. But I didn't "chase after it." It was not even something I pursued. It was something I began to move in after I was baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    You just posted again, so let me see if you addressed my question of how you define the phrase "praying in tongues." That's pertinent to our present discussion.
     
  19. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Paul is saying that when he speaks in tongues, he is praying that somebody will interpret otherwise he will not understand it and therefore the tongue will not be fruitful to himself until someone does.

    Paul clarified that it is his spirit that is praying; not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is manifesting tongues to speak unto the people, but Paul would be praying that someone would interpret so he would understand it so that the tongue would be fruitful unto himself by being edified.

    13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
     
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    But you see, I'm also well aware of all these passages. What I am asking you specifically is why would He allow it outside the church if He is not allowing it inside? In other words, what would the logic of that be? If wives were to set an example of submission to their husbands in homes and in churches, why should they set no such similar example before the world?
     
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