Two witnesses 2+2=2?
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Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(KJV)
Hi Vet, I can't tell if you're correcting your mistake or what. This is what you said in post #16: :Those seven lamps (from Zech. 4) are the seven candlesticks our Lord defined in Rev.1:20 as the 7 Churches, which was a new revealing."
The seven stars/angels of Rev. 1:20 are commonly considered the "pastors" of those churches and I see nothing in scripture to change that opinion.
The seven stars/angels of Rev. 1:20 are commonly considered the "pastors" of those churches and I see nothing in scripture to change that opinion.
The word "angels" there is Greek aggelos. There's no reason to interpret those seven angels as flesh men, especially in light of those seven stars John is shown serve as a heavenly pattern along with the seven candlesticks per Rev.1:16; Rev.2:1, Rev.3:1. So, no I'm not changing anything I've said before on this.
revturmoil
New Member
Trek said,
You have already changed it!
Thayer's said,
The angels of the churches in Rev. 1:20, 2:1,8,12, and 18 are not their presbyters or bishops, but heavenly spirits who exercise such a superintendence and guardianship over them that whatever in their assemblies is worthy of praise or censure is counted to the praise or the blame of their angels also, as though the latter infused their spirit into the assemblies.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G32&t=KJV
You have already changed it!
Thayer's said,
The angels of the churches in Rev. 1:20, 2:1,8,12, and 18 are not their presbyters or bishops, but heavenly spirits who exercise such a superintendence and guardianship over them that whatever in their assemblies is worthy of praise or censure is counted to the praise or the blame of their angels also, as though the latter infused their spirit into the assemblies.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G32&t=KJV
Christ's Two Witnesses
For the LORD will send out two others, and they will prophecy, one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
Therefore come out from among them and be separate, Says the LORD. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.
These two, did not know the LORD from the time they were born. The SPIRIT of the LORD drew them to search for HIM. The SPIRIT led them to CHRIST, to repentance and forgiveness, and to thirst for the righteousness of the LORD. These two, are the anointed ones, the two olive trees that stand beside the LORD of the whole earth. One on this river bank and the other on that river bank. They are sent out by CHRIST who is above the waters of the river, and the waters of the river are the people who claim to be the people of GOD. They are sent out to measure the people, on earth, who call themselves, the people of GOD. They have been given the plum line, which is the righteousness, of the LORD. The rod of righteousness is their measuring tool. And they will bring justice to those who are upright and straight in the LORD, and disaster to those who are not. These two come in the spirit of ELIJAH and MOSES, with the full power of the SPIRIT of the LORD. Now the SPIRIT of the LORD, is also their rear guard, so that no one can harm them, until their ministry is finished. If any one would try to lay hands on them to cause harm, or lay in wait to shoot them, the LORD will warn them before hand, then they will turn and speak the words, and fire will proceed down on the heads of their enemies, and totally consume their enemies. The two witnesses of the LORD, have been instructed to hack off their hair and to put on sacks for clothes and to tie a rope around their waist for a belt, as a witness against the people.
When they begin their ministry, They are sent to, large congregations of people, who claim they are CHRIST'S people, Where they will be laughed at, mocked and treated spitefully. Then when the word is given by the church leaders, for them to be thrown out of the congregation, then fire will consume the young men, who try to lay hands on them, and great fear will fall on all who see it. Then the LORD'S two witnesses will speak to the sky and to the heavens, in front of these, two congregations, who have rejected them. Then lightning, thundering, and earthquakes will go out from these two different parts of the earth, over the face of the whole earth, And the two witnesses of the LORD will have given the order, that no more rain shall fall on the face of the earth, for three and a half years, or a time, times, and a half time, or one thousand two hundred and sixty days, or forty two months. Then all weather, over the face of the whole earth, will disappear, for that amount of time.
Immediately the sun will cause blistering heat everywhere . It will become like a death valley summer everywhere on earth.
Although witness of these events will go out from the two
congregations. Not every one on earth will know the truth about what has happened. Most people will be subject to the rumors and debates produced by the news medias and talk shows. Even the prominent scientists and leaders will give their opinions. But the truth will remain, That GOD, has begun to take away his daily sacrifice to man, and the great trouble, of which there has been none greater since there was a nation, no, nor will there be any greater, HAS BEGUN. This is also the beginning of the time period, for the setting up, of the abomination of desolation.
The two witnesses, will continue their ministry, only to be rejected by most Christian assemblies. Then not many days after the weather on earth disappears, and because the people, that call themselves, the people of GOD, will not receive correction from the LORD'S two witnesses, They will speak to the oceans and seas, in front of the congregations who have rejected them. Then going out from those two different parts of the earth, The oceans and seas, of the earth, will turn to blood. Like the blood of a dead man, and every living thing in the oceans and seas, will die.
The LORD'S two witnesses will continue their ministry, going out to more Christian congregations. Even though most of them will be in a panic by then. The two witnesses will still be mocked and treated shamefully. Then because those who speak in the name of the LORD, will not listen to the word of the LORD, through HIS two witnesses. They will speak to the inland waters, from two different parts of the earth, in front of two different congregations. Then the waters of the rivers, lakes, reservoirs, levies, canals, wells, springs, bottles, cans, and all fresh water supplies, will turn to blood, Like the blood of a dead man, And every living thing in the waters will die. Even the remainder of the polar ice caps that did not melt from the blistering heat, will turn to blood.
The slanderers of the earth will give all kinds of reasons and theories about why and what has happened. But all of their efforts to explain and to overcome, will come to nothing.
This plague of blood will change things here on earth, very rapidly. Electricity will stop, because of no water to turn their generators. Business will stop, because of no electricity. Darkness will fall on the seat of the beast, on every nation on earth. All manufacturing will stop, all over the globe. Not many days will pass, and people will abandon their homes. Because of the heat, and when they turn on their faucets and flush their toilets, blood will come out instead of water. And so after a while, EVERY HOUSE IS SHUT UP SO THAT NONE MAY GO IN.
At this point, The general public will be in a great panic.
There will be violent runs on super markets, gas stations, stores of all kinds. Finally every place that bought or sold or stored anything, will be looted and destroyed by the people. Fires will consume much, because there will be no water to put them out. Very quickly all of the supplies of everything in the world, will be gone.
Most of the people will become vicious, because of the heat and no food and water. Then those who love evil and despise GOOD will begin robbing, killing, raping, pillaging and hating each other, even their own brothers and sisters, over whatever they can find.
The LORD'S two witnesses will continue their ministry, Even though a congregation is hard to find by human standards, the SPIRIT of the LORD leads them on. Now many people have come to the knowledge of the truth. But there are many more who have not. So in front of congregations who have rejected them. They will speak the words, and great swarms of insects, both flying and crawling insects, will appear all over the earth. Then the insects will eat every remaining plant and tree. Because of the amount of meat eating and stinging insects, many people will die from this plague. Then the wild animals, even the pets that once befriended them, will turn on them in packs. The birds will start feeding on the dead bodies of people, That will start lining the streets of the cities of the world. Nuclear power plants will melt down and kill many, because of the suddenness of no water to cool them. Things will really start to escalate. Prisoners will walk out of the prisons, when they are abandoned by the people who can no longer feed and water them. The militaries and policing agencies, of the world, will disband, because they will be as worthless and vicious as everyone else, in the world. And thus those who restrain, are taken out of the way, and the man of sin is now revealed. "O" that men would have believed our report. For even PAUL wrote witness for you, saying "FOR YOU YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMES AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. FOR WHEN THEY SAY, PEACE AND SAFETY THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMES UPON THEM AS LABOR PAINS UPON A PREGNANT WOMAN. AND THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE". Now will GOD not bring forth the birth of his holy nation? Will birth pains not precede the birth? Or will the birth pains last forever? Even after the birth? Will those who are being delivered, not go through the birth? "O" man why have you not understood these things? For there will be a crying in the streets, on the hills, in the mountains and in the valleys for water, food, wine, drugs, cigarettes, medicines, all that anyone had grown fond of will be gone, And all that their souls long for they will not find.
The blood in the oceans, seas, and inland water supplies will
coagulate, harden and rot. The stink will go up into the air, and be hard to bare, along with the smell of rotting bodies everywhere.
All that man has created by worshiping the works of his hands, has come to nothing. All of the gold, silver, jewels, money, cars, trucks, fuels, talent, causes, knowledge, songs, ability, ministries, Nothing will be able to buy a single drop of water, to drink, or a single bite of food to eat, or a way out of the extreme heat of the days. So everyone is in the same condition, as with the rich so with the poor, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the shepherd so with the sheep. All who have rejected the LORD and his two witnesses, are in agony.
Things will get so bad, Bands of people will form all over the world, That will start killing people and eating them for food and drinking their blood for water. They will be using, and trusting in, guns, knives, bows and arrows, cross bows, machine guns canons, airplanes, helicopters, tanks. All kinds of arms to do this thing. Now if anyone chooses this path of eating people for food and drinking blood for water. They will be sealed for destruction at the coming of the LORD. Regardless of whether it is distilled or any other deception. Those who have not found the truth by then, who would be called a child of LIGHT, will eat any other thing, Insects, animals, ect. Finally every animal will have been killed or eaten for food.
Those who have believed will be in the camps of the LORD. The LORD'S true shepherds will have started up camps where the SPIRIT of the LORD will feed the people with manna. The true shepherds will bring water out of the face of the rock to water the flocks. There will be nothing in the camps of the LORD except people. The people will be bald with their hair hacked off, it will be the same with men, women, and children. They will all be clothed in sack cloth, with a rope around their waist. Everyone will be dirty and smell like people who have not bathed in a long time. No one justified will wear any ornaments or paint on the bodies that are called the temple of GOD, because of the fear of the LORD. All of the people in the camps, will give praise and thanks to the LORD day and night in fear and trembling. For the fear of the LORD had been taught by the commandments of men, teaching their god who loves perversity. But now they can see that man was wrong, and after all that has happened, The LORD has delivered them from it all. The SPIRIT of the LORD has fed and watered them and protected them with HIS fire that comes down from the sky on the heads of his enemies. The SPIRIT of the LORD is also their unseen shade from the heat of the days.
All of this will take place after the hirelings, who were in charge of the LORD'S sheep in THE GREEN WOOD, have come to nothing in the DRY. Those who divined for money and taught and prophesied for a bribe. For they could not show or tell their followers what to do to cure their ills.
They were worthless because of what they believed. So some of them will become sheep needing help themselves, because of true humility. Others will try to flee the persecution of their own followers, only to find, there is no place to run. Some will be dashed to pieces, because they were treacherous dealers, Indeed they were very treacherous dealers.
Still the LORD had true shepherds out there, waiting for all of this to happen, and more sheep will be added to their flocks daily, even from the beginning of troubles. And the saying of the LORD is remembered, "WHO THEN IS A FAITHFULL AND WISE SERVANT, WHOM HIS MASTER MADE RULER OVER HIS HOUSEHOLD, TO GIVE THEM FOOD IN DUE SEASON? BLESSED IS THAT SERVANT WHOM HIS MASTER WHEN HE COMES, WILL FIND SO DOING".
The SPIRIT of the LORD will also send out to gather, the poor in spirit, the meek of the earth, the pure in heart, those who thirst after righteousness, and all who sit in sack cloth with bald heads and cry out to the LORD for comfort.
Now there will be a group of people, who will have been surviving on processed people for food, and processed blood for water, They are also a religious group. Their leaders will have stumbled onto some of the LORDS power, But by the LORD'S design. They will gain power over most of the existing world and they will have all of mans devices at their disposal. They will lie to themselves and to all who follow them. They will say that the true GOD of heaven is with them, They will show the power of GOD to prove it. They will cause many to become sacrifices for their stomach. Then when the time has been fulfilled, And when they have reestablished their T.V. transmissions, They will kill the LORD'S two witnesses, who will be together at that time, by the power of GOD. It is part of the two witnesses ministry to die.
Now the devils who will kill them, will further deceive themselves, because when the two witnesses die, the weather will return to the earth, just like it was before the two witnesses of the LORD came. Now because it has become a common thing, to let dead bodies lay where they die, over the past three and a half years, and because of fear. No one will bury the two witnesses, of the LORD. Their dead bodies will lay in the street where they are killed, for three and a half days.
The evil ones and everyone who has followed them, will be happy and full of joy, thinking that it is all over, That the two devils who tormented those who live on the earth are dead. They will send gifts to one another and rejoice and party it up for days. They will work hard on trying to restore as much as
possible of the world, to the way it was before. For they are lovers of the world, and this is where their hearts and minds are.
Then on the fourth day, half way through the fourth day, making it three and a half days, with their cameras in place, because of their arrogance, to disprove the rumors, The breath of life, from GOD, will inter back into the two witnesses, and they will stand up on their feet. Then a loud voice from the sky will say "COME UP HERE". Then the two witnesses, will ascend up into the sky, and go out of sight into a cloud. Great fear will fall on all who see and hear this. Then there will be a great earthquake, in the same hour and seven thousand of the evil ones will be killed.
When the evil ones come to their senses, after being shaken by, the great earthquake, the death of their people and the resurrection of the two witnesses, They will muster their forces and go out with red faced angry fury, to annihilate the camps of the LORD. But when they come to the places where the camps of the LORD had been, They will be gone, and they will not find them.
The SPIRIT of the LORD will have warned HIS true shepherds, And they will have started out on a journey, in one aspect like JONAH on his way to Nineveh.
The evil ones will search for many days and not find them. Then the evil ones will regroup and search the scriptures, to find out where they could have gone. They will eventually find them. Then they will muster all of their vast forces and army, and head for that place on earth, where the now combined camps of the LORD are dwelling. Then when the evil ones are approaching the Camps of the LORD, Suddenly there will be a great cracking of thunder, A great flashing of lightning, Flashing from the eastern sky toward the western sky. And as that mighty flash twinkles in the eye of the beholder, The LORDS first fruits, HIS elect, HIS true shepherds, HIS saints, HIS holy messengers, First those who were put to death for their testimony, those who sleep in the dust of the earth, Then those who are alive, those who are attending the LORD'S sheep. Will be taken up into the air , in that flash of light, And will just seem to be coming with the LORD. Thus the LORD will come riding on the clouds of glory, with all of HIS holy messengers with HIM.
Then the LORD will utter HIS voice before HIS army of saints, there will be noises, thundering, lightning and a great earthquake. Such a great and mighty earthquake, as has not happened since men were on the earth. And all of the buildings and cities of the earth will crumble to the ground, Every Island will flee away, and the mountains will not be found. Then great hail will fall out of the sky, on the evil ones, and they will blaspheme GOD because of the hail. The saints of GOD will fly out like eagles and the evil ones will run to hide. But not one of the evil ones will escape the lake of fire that comes down on their heads out of the sky like lightning.
Then the LORD, will send HIS saints into HIS camps of sheep, that were left here on earth without a shepherd and HIS saints will gather everyone who is not wearing the proper wedding apparel. They will be gathered and set before the throne of CHRIST, on the left side, and the LORD will slay them with the words of his mouth.
Then the LORD will turn HIS attention to his sheep on his right, the number of which only the LORD HIMSELF could count, who are now before HIS throne here on earth. And HE will say come, you blessed of MY FATHER, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from before the beginning of the world.
This will begin the millennial reign of CHRIST, in the kingdom of GO
Kaotic, Have you ever considered that Thayer might be wrong? The use of several references is always wise to see if the general consensus agrees.
som - Nice piece of fiction, have you offered it to Hollywood? Imo, the two witnesses will have little to do with the church as we'll be gone for most of their ministry. They come so the world will have a witness when the church is raptured at the 7th seal.
som - Nice piece of fiction, have you offered it to Hollywood? Imo, the two witnesses will have little to do with the church as we'll be gone for most of their ministry. They come so the world will have a witness when the church is raptured at the 7th seal.
revturmoil
New Member
Have you ever considered that you might be wrong! You have no hermeneutic. If you had a hermeneutic you would continuously prove yourself wrong!
A literal angel is what is mentioned in the verse and nothing else!
If John wanted to imply something else like a man he would not have used the word aggelos. And I know that some interpreters would like you to believe that they can be pastors but I disagree.
You will only be gone if you die. The great tribulation comes first and then after the great tribulation Christ comes as per Mat 24. You don't know what the gospel of Christ is so why would you think you could understand the book of revelation?
I think you're grossly confused. I'm not the one who tried to apply the idea of flesh pastors to the 'seven stars' of Rev.1:20. It was Trekson who stated that from some other source.
Christ defined a link between the seven candlesticks and seven stars with the seven Churches per that Rev.1:20 verse. Those confused about that ought to simply READ the verse AS WRITTEN. I will label them in the verse for those willing to read.
Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(KJV)
seven stars = angels of the seven churches
seven candlesticks = seven churches
Some want to think of that word "angels" to mean flesh messengers because they do not believe in the existence of angelic spirits in Heaven. God's Word has plenty to say with 'angels' representing Heavenly order beings, and not flesh men.
So both, those seven stars and seven golden candlesticks, are HEAVENLY ORDER patterns FOR... the seven literal Churches that existed on earth in John's day. As in Heaven, as also on the earth it is with many parallels. In Heaven there are seven candlesticks to represent the seven Churches on earth, and also in Heaven there are seven angels in power over the seven Churches on earth. No brainer.
Another proof of this...
Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)
Where is that candlestick from which Christ would remove it if they did not repent? From it's place in the Heavenly. And symbolically that would represent Christ destroying that specific church on the earth.
Hi Vet, Your words: "Christ defined a link between the seven candlesticks and seven stars with the seven Churches per that Rev.1:20 verse. Those confused about that ought to simply READ the verse AS WRITTEN. I will label them in the verse for those willing to read... Some want to think of that word "angels" to mean flesh messengers because they do not believe in the existence of angelic spirits in Heaven."
I agree that one must read the scriptures as written. That also implies one doesn't get all boggled up by spiritualizing and symbolizing things that have literal meanings. The biggest obstacle for some is to apply "common sense", as well when reading the scriptures. So, I'll share a little of mine for those who have "ears to hear".
Christ told John to write in a book, what he will be shown and send it to the seven churches. I do believe in spiritual angels and yes the word "aggelos" can mean them, but the Strong's G32 also has as a definition, "(by implication, a pastor)". Using "common sense" do you really believe Christ is going to tell John (a physical man) to write a letter and "mail it" to seven spiritual beings??!! No, I thought not. If Christ wanted to send them a message, He'd just tell them in the spirit realm. Christ tells John: "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus, write..." Common sense tells us that if John is writing to,... a physical person will read what he is writing, not a spiritual being.
I am the one that is reading the word as written. Those who can't see the common sense are reading into scripture things that are not there!
Your words: "No brainer." Apparently it is.
Your verse (words in parenthesis mine) This is what your verse is really saying without spiritualizing and using "common sense".
Rev. 2:5 - "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, (I will snuff out your light and shut you down for not doing the job I have for you, that's all it means) except thou repent."
I agree that one must read the scriptures as written. That also implies one doesn't get all boggled up by spiritualizing and symbolizing things that have literal meanings. The biggest obstacle for some is to apply "common sense", as well when reading the scriptures. So, I'll share a little of mine for those who have "ears to hear".
Christ told John to write in a book, what he will be shown and send it to the seven churches. I do believe in spiritual angels and yes the word "aggelos" can mean them, but the Strong's G32 also has as a definition, "(by implication, a pastor)". Using "common sense" do you really believe Christ is going to tell John (a physical man) to write a letter and "mail it" to seven spiritual beings??!! No, I thought not. If Christ wanted to send them a message, He'd just tell them in the spirit realm. Christ tells John: "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus, write..." Common sense tells us that if John is writing to,... a physical person will read what he is writing, not a spiritual being.
I am the one that is reading the word as written. Those who can't see the common sense are reading into scripture things that are not there!
Your words: "No brainer." Apparently it is.
Your verse (words in parenthesis mine) This is what your verse is really saying without spiritualizing and using "common sense".
Rev. 2:5 - "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, (I will snuff out your light and shut you down for not doing the job I have for you, that's all it means) except thou repent."
revturmoil
New Member
I don't know exactly what your getting at or where you're trying to go but...
Christ was refering to the entire tribulation period. Pre-wrath believers have to manufacture a broken up tribulation to fit your false beliefs.
See what I mean about changing the meaning of biblical terms to fit your a bogus pre-wrath rapture? Having changed the true timing and meaning of 'tribulation,' you also do as the pre-tribbers do...and that is you must change the meaning and timing of "The Day of the LORD!" and so on....and so on... The fabrications, complications, and contradictions are almost endless with pre, mid, and pre-wrath. But people don't care about truth. They care about remaining in denial so that they don't have to admit they're wrong!
What do you know about what I know! I know the gospell of Christ enough that I can identify a fabricator and one that is in denial of truth, and one who has been deceived!
revturmoil
New Member
We'll let the LORD decide! After all...Aren't you the guy that said I would call Jesus a liar?
Where's your rebuttal!
My rebuttal is in every reply I've been polite enough to give you. I don't have to make "fabrications, complications, and contradictions are almost endless with pre, mid, and pre-wrath." I just tell it as it is. If anyone is doing any of what you accuse me of it would be yourself. Remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, there are always three pointing back at you. If you can't give a decent response without immature name-calling and empty accusations then don't bother replying until you grow up!
All I did was express what our Lord Jesus said the seven candlesticks represent per Rev.1:20, but now you're wanting to make up something totally different about them based on that Rev.2:5 verse.
What part of "will remove thy candlestick out of his place" did you not understand??
Instead you've gone off on some crazy carnal minded tirade that is doing nothing but getting farther away from the written Scripture of Rev.1:20 and the seven candlesticks as a symbol Christ Himself gave for the seven Churches on earth in John's day.
So, did Jesus say the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches, or not??
Vet, Candlesticks aren't what I was speaking about. The fallacy that the seven stars were heavenly beings is what my last point was about. Yes, the candlesticks represent the seven churches of that day, they have no future representation except that there might be several million candlesticks now.
Rev 1:15-16
15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And He had in his right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
(KJV)
Maybe you ought go back and look at where John was shown those seven stars.
And this...
Rev 2:1
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith He That holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, Who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
(KJV)
Rev 3:1
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(KJV)
Our Lord Jesus is holding those seven stars in His hand, and is in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks. How is it you refuse to understand that is a Heavenly pattern John was being shown?
Christ was not holding seven 'pastors' in His right hand.
Where they're getting the idea that "angel" means a pastor there is from a verse like this...
Rev 2:12
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
(KJV)
If that is meant about a flesh messenger, then it would have to mean Apostle John, since Christ told John to write down what he saw to the seven Churches.
But then there's later this, which ought to throw you for a real loop...
Rev 19:9-10
9 And he saith unto me, "Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
(KJV)
Hi Vet, Your words: "Rev 2:12 - 12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
(KJV)
If that is meant about a flesh messenger, then it would have to mean Apostle John, since Christ told John to write down what he saw to the seven Churches.
???? I don't see where you get that! John is writing to the seven "pastors" of those churches. We get the idea from Strong's G32 as I mentioned which has as a definition, "by implication, a pastor". Can He hold seven pastors in His hand? Yes, just as easily as He can hold seven angels. Don't you remember the song, "He's got the whole world in His hands". The stars are representations of pastors, just like they were representations of Joseph's brothers in his dream. The seven churches/candlesticks were under John's human authority as an apostle. John's not going to write a "letter" and send it to himself!
I'm at a loss as to what you are implying about Rev. 19:9-10.
(KJV)
If that is meant about a flesh messenger, then it would have to mean Apostle John, since Christ told John to write down what he saw to the seven Churches.
???? I don't see where you get that! John is writing to the seven "pastors" of those churches. We get the idea from Strong's G32 as I mentioned which has as a definition, "by implication, a pastor". Can He hold seven pastors in His hand? Yes, just as easily as He can hold seven angels. Don't you remember the song, "He's got the whole world in His hands". The stars are representations of pastors, just like they were representations of Joseph's brothers in his dream. The seven churches/candlesticks were under John's human authority as an apostle. John's not going to write a "letter" and send it to himself!
I'm at a loss as to what you are implying about Rev. 19:9-10.
Son of Man where are you getting this information for the to witnesses have not been told them must do most of the things you contend.
You wrote this and so much more....
" These two come in the spirit of ELIJAH and MOSES, with the full power of the SPIRIT of the LORD.
The two witnesses of the LORD, have been instructed to hack off their hair and to put on sacks for clothes and to tie a rope around their waist for a belt, as a witness against the people.
When they begin their ministry, They are sent to, large congregations of people, who claim they are CHRIST'S people, Where they will be laughed at, mocked and treated spitefully. Then when the word is given by the church leaders, for them to be thrown out of the congregation, then fire will consume the young men, who try to lay hands on them, and great fear will fall on all who see it. Then the LORD'S two witnesses will speak to the sky and to the heavens, in front of these, two congregations, who have rejected them. Then lightning, thundering, and earthquakes will go out from these two different parts of the earth, over the face of the whole earth, And the two witnesses of the LORD will have given the order, that no more rain shall fall on the face of the earth, for three and a half years, or a time, times, and a half time, or one thousand two hundred and sixty days, or forty two months. Then all weather, over the face of the whole earth, will disappear, for that amount of time. "
But where did you ge this information for I have never seen this written in the Word of God. Also I consider doing all these things a severe problem that would hamper he actions of the false prophet the beast the anti-christ and the false messiah as well as othe prophecies being able to transpire such as the wars as well as the times of peace.
The two witnesses will campaign against those that follow false gods as well as governments of the wolrd, except Israel unless God instructs otherwise. The sverity and duration of plagues you have lasting their entre time off power but that is not to be. They will choose where, when and for how long, as they will... not as you will. Any conjecture of what these 2 witnesses do is simply conjecture for these things are given to them to do carte blanc, if not as your postings suppose... then there would be no need of them by God, for God would simply have placed those events in the vials or at the trumps. I do expect to have say in the things I do for if I am forced then i have not done them.
You wrote this and so much more....
" These two come in the spirit of ELIJAH and MOSES, with the full power of the SPIRIT of the LORD.
The two witnesses of the LORD, have been instructed to hack off their hair and to put on sacks for clothes and to tie a rope around their waist for a belt, as a witness against the people.
When they begin their ministry, They are sent to, large congregations of people, who claim they are CHRIST'S people, Where they will be laughed at, mocked and treated spitefully. Then when the word is given by the church leaders, for them to be thrown out of the congregation, then fire will consume the young men, who try to lay hands on them, and great fear will fall on all who see it. Then the LORD'S two witnesses will speak to the sky and to the heavens, in front of these, two congregations, who have rejected them. Then lightning, thundering, and earthquakes will go out from these two different parts of the earth, over the face of the whole earth, And the two witnesses of the LORD will have given the order, that no more rain shall fall on the face of the earth, for three and a half years, or a time, times, and a half time, or one thousand two hundred and sixty days, or forty two months. Then all weather, over the face of the whole earth, will disappear, for that amount of time. "
But where did you ge this information for I have never seen this written in the Word of God. Also I consider doing all these things a severe problem that would hamper he actions of the false prophet the beast the anti-christ and the false messiah as well as othe prophecies being able to transpire such as the wars as well as the times of peace.
The two witnesses will campaign against those that follow false gods as well as governments of the wolrd, except Israel unless God instructs otherwise. The sverity and duration of plagues you have lasting their entre time off power but that is not to be. They will choose where, when and for how long, as they will... not as you will. Any conjecture of what these 2 witnesses do is simply conjecture for these things are given to them to do carte blanc, if not as your postings suppose... then there would be no need of them by God, for God would simply have placed those events in the vials or at the trumps. I do expect to have say in the things I do for if I am forced then i have not done them.
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