Two witnesses 2+2=2?

[Ridgerunner]

Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Let’s start by recognizing that God’s inspired Word is using figurative or symbolic language to describe the two witnesses. Clearly literal candlesticks and olive trees aren’t the witnesses so using the literal definitions for these terms will lead us into error. We must also consider that two plus two equal four so is it possible that one set of two is an identifier that identifies the other set of two? So let’s use sound hermeneutic principles and see if we can figure out who/what the two witnesses are. One of the rules of hermeneutics when it comes to Scripture is the rule of Scriptural adjacency. That Rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it.s a very good one.


Rom11 tells us that the olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them. Rev1:20 tells us seven candlesticks are seven churches, so two candlesticks would be two churches.

If candlesticks are churches then which two churches are they? The olive trees hold the answer, olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst the Jews. So in this case the two olive trees plus the two candlesticks equal the Jewish and the Christian churches.

I know this won’t fit what most people have been taught but if we allow Scripture to define itself when dealing with figurative (or symbolic) language quite often the message becomes clear.

Remember John1:1 tells us the Word was God. Mal3:6 and Heb13:8 tells us that God/Christ does not change. So if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be candlesticks in Rev11 unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rev1 and Rev11. The same principle applies to the olive trees. If the olive trees in Romans are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them then olive trees in Rev will still be Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rom11 and Rev11.

 

[Pelaides]

Revelations11:8-9 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,which spiritually is called sodom and egypt,where also our lord was crucified.And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies 3 days and a half and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in the grave".

Now i dont know where in your imagination,you can arrive at the conclusion that these 2 prophets represent churches?

 

[Ridgerunner]

LOL does this look like my imagination?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

It doesn’t have any thing to do with imagination, but instead using the definition's that Scripture itself provides. Don’t you believe that per God’s word candlesticks are churches? Don’t you believe that per God’s word olive trees are Jew’s and Christians? Can you show us where God changed those definitions?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Ridgerunner, The problem is you haven't gone deep enough. You are providing a simplistic answer to a complicated question. The question to ask is, are candlesticks always churches and are olive trees always symbols of Jews and christians?

In this case 2+2 does not equal 4 because the word isn't speaking of 4 individuals. In the OP you quoted this verse: "Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

The key word here is "and". They are both describing the same thing. It's like I said I have two red fords. It doesn't mean I have four cars, two red and two fords, they describe the same thing. Is this analogy used anywhere else?

The answer is yes. Zech. 4:11-14 - "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[sup]12 [/sup]And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[sup]13 [/sup]And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[sup]14 [/sup]Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

In this particular passage the two olive trees are Joshua and Zerubabbel but we have to realize that these are "types" for a future fulfillment. Some believe the two witnesses to be Elijah and Moses, I believe them to be Elijah and Enoch, but it doesn't have to be either. Christ told us that John the Baptist had the spirit of Elijah and that his pronouncements about Christ fulfilled what was foretold of Elijah. We can't just use some of scripture to define other scripture, we have to use all of it and ask of God for guidance and understanding. Things don't always make common sense, we have to look for the spiritual sense.

In the above verse the two olive trees provided the oil for the candlestick. Here is a quote from the AMP footnotes:

1. Zechariah 4:14 The oil used in anointing symbolizes the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:6). The combination of priest and ruler points ultimately to the Messianic Priest-King (Ps. 110; Zech. 6:13; Heb. 7).

Usually olive trees represent the oil of the Holy Spirit annointing and the candlesticks represent "light" that is being offered to the world. What about the seven churches made them "candlesticks"? Simply they were letting the gospel light shine even amidst their failures. So it is my opinion, that the two witnesses (whomever they may be) are preaching the gospel with the power of the Holy Spirit after the church has been pre-wrath raptured, but I believe our presences will overlap.

 

[Pelaides]

It seems you hit the nail on the head with that post trekson,I was going to write the same thing but you beat me to it.

Whenever God is going to destroy or punish people ,he usually warns them first,with either prophets and or Angels,The way he did with Noah and Jonah.The 2 prophets in sackloth are coming to warn mankind that God is going to destroy the world,But they will be persecuted and killed.I personally dont think they will be either Moses and Elijah.But they will certainlly work miracles on par with any of the prophets that ever existed.Their arrival will signal the end of the world as we know it.

 

[gregg]

144,000.00=2 churchs they will preach the word

 

[Trekson]

Thanks Pelaides, I guess great minds think alike

Hi sogj, There is nothing in scripture that suggests the 144,000 do anything.

 

[us2are1]

The two witnesses are two individual prophets as it says in the scripture.

Rev 11
10 -------- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

The olive trees can be found here.

Zechariah 4
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

The Lamp stands are here also.

Zechariah 4
1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.
3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."
4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the Lord of hosts.
7 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "
8 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
9 "The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it. Then you will know That the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.
10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the Lord, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."
11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"
13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

 

[veteran]

Funny how the meanings Jesus gave about candlesticks in Revelation was conviently left out of most of the above explanations.


Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(KJV)

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)


Christ gave a new Revelation about the 'candlesticks' there in Rev.1:20. They are 7 candlesticks in Heaven to represent 7 Churches on earth. That's BOTH a Heavenly pattern, and an earthly pattern for the candlesticks. Thus the meaning is no longer just some mystical idea with no substance, but a literal meaning.

The prophecy of God's "two witnesses" is about two specific individuals coming in the mission of Elijah and Moses. But the two candlesticks are those of Christ's elect on earth that make the stand with them. The two candlesticks represent the two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two which Christ had no problem with. They are symbolic Churches for His elect, revealing how Christ's Church will still... be on earth to go through that time of the 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet.

Those who refuse to understand that Christ doesn't come to gather His Church until the 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet simply skip that candlestick meaning Christ gave in His Revelation. It conflicts with their man-made theories, so they choose to leave it out of that Rev.11 prophecy about the two witnesses.

 

[tgwprophet]

There is one thing I have noticed accross the board in sites (not forums) displaying what they "think" is truth. I typed in " the two witnesses" and located web sites for this information, but.... They are wrong in their understandings. EX: http://www.thetwowitnesses.com/ this site claims there will be false witnesses... meaning those claiming to be the two witnesses, but none of their text shows scripture validating this. Instead their scripture only establishes false prophets. False prophets have reasoning... to gain positions of power, or money or both. The two witnesses will not desire secular power nor money and one may easily see a false prophet because they have their own personal interests at heart. Surely they know they are fakes, so what is their gain if not a personal one? This adgenda does not hold true for the two witnesses, so why be a fake when it has no personal benefit in Heaven or on earth? Yes, there will be many false prophets, but witnesses...not in my bible. There is a distinction between witnesses who are prophets and prophets. All the sites like this i have seen have no access for correction... no website unless... maybe you want to send them money... then possibly... you may find an area to display their errors, but probably not an area to offer correction. They do not want your input, only your money... sound familuar? This campaign without allowing feed back is just the kind of directive one would expect from a false prophet. Should I pay them to be allowed to correct them? Sould I pay all the sites of this type? Many Christian site delving in prophecy do the same whether or not it discusses the two witnesses.

What does it behoove one to claim they are one of the two witnesses if they are not? See, these two witnesses will not be seeking followers... and would-be followers are likely to get attacked and they will be un-protected. Also, the two witnesses will not be those prophets of yesteryear. Enoch and/or Elijah are not these witnesses. God gave them a gift...they did not taste death, does he take it back too?

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, Blessed be the name of the Lord. - Would God take away this gift... I think not.

They have Jewish heritage, will God strip them of that as well? Where are the Gentile prophets... proof that the Christians are truly grafted unto the vine of the Jews? Simple... the two witnesses. the two witnesses will be Gentiles and Christians, not a guess. The two witnesses are here already.. not a guess. The two witnesses are Gentile Christians... not a guess. How do I know this? If someone told you they are one of the two witnesses, do you know how to test them... knowing it is not yet their time of power? Answwer that question, providing a valid test for the two witnesses or just one of them... and I will reveal how I achieved the wisdom to know these things. Please do not jump to assumptions.

Seems everyone trys to unveil the identification of the two witnesses through their disected understanding of scripture, therefore preventig the two witnesses to be revealed through righteous wisdom. Above the web site I gave... added false witnesse but no mention of false wtnesses is given, that I ever read in scripture. If you think my understainding is narrow minded, wait a while and when their time starts my understanding will be validated, if not then... then 3 1/2 days after they die. God's Word had information about the first birth of Jesus, yet the scholars did not understand it, and when Jesus began his endeavors... the scholars denied him becasue they did not recognize scripture rightly, and so, history repeats itself.

This mis-understanding will most likely be done anew as when Jesus is reborn of another mother. The word says; woe to those who give suck during those days.... guess why... because Satan will try to eliminate the next child Jesus, as he tried in Herod's time. I know some think there will not be a second physical birth, nor a physical mother nor a physical ascention nor a physical protection for the mother... If however, it is a church that is the mother, how can it fly into the wilderness and why would it need protection...meaning seclusion from Christians? How could people attend?

I have taught for 20 years that the Anti-christ will not develop the mark of the beast (or all the divers marks of the beast) but rather unify diverse "marks" already in use, merely by signing a proclamation and lassing it into law. Welcome to the Mark of the Beast... Just days ago I wateched a news program where a reporter bought stuff by showing her phone screen to a scanner, by using only her name and by using only her phone number. This is already available!!! This is available for the anti-christ to attatch that it may be linked to the Mark of the Beast. But the Anti-christ has yet to be revealed so...this proves what I have claimed. One of the places she bought stuff was Home Depot.

Think about this... Is obama the Anti-christ? Obama passed a law allowing him to kill at his will. Could he be preparing or is he prepared to kill his election rivals? It will not be too long before we will know this answer... However if he "wins" re-election then he has 4 more years to pave the way that he may become dictator. I do not claim Obama is the anti-christ...(yet,... maybe)... I merely speculate, what if. Personally, I think he is not because he has achieved fame by becoming president of the USA and not because of a mortal wound.

 

[veteran]

The two witnesses of Rev.11 are two literal flesh men. We can easily know that by what they do on earth and after that with their dead bodies laying in the plaza in Jerusalem for 3.5 days.

But the prophecy includes the idea of two candlesticks within their description, which Christ already gave the definition for in Rev.1:20 as the 7 Churches. For further proof of this, we have the event of the 5th Seal, of witnesses for Christ that are to be beheaded for giving a Testimony for Christ for the tribulation time. Jesus covered that point also in His Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 about those who will be delivered up to give a Witness by The Holy Spirit speaking through them. Thus Christ's elect have a duty for the time of great tribulation, which is why Christ's Church is going to still be here on earth.

 

[tgwprophet]

The two witnesses are two candle sticks and two olive branches... they are however, not. of the seven candle sticks and their position is defined as on each side of Jesus. In Zach. when told that position is for the two appointed...it did not mean for the seven to be taken apart. Leaving 5 candle sticks standing apart from 2.

ridgerunner... you have no qualifier to link the 2 witnesses to the 7 candle sticks. It is just not there. Can there be the7 candle sticks AND the two witnesses make up 2 more candlesticks..but are not Jewish churches... absolutely! OR your way... the candle sticks must be separated since the two witnesses have a different placement than that 7. Furthermore the 7 candle sticks are churches and they are churches of oldentimes.. but the 2 witnesses are not of those churches... there is no qualifier given in scripture to prove this. And so, the 7 Jewish churches are given by the 7 candlesticks and the other 2 candle sticks represent the Gentiles grafted unto the vine. Your way means the 7 candlesticks are separated because the 2 have a different placement form the rest. Meaning you have 5 candle sticks standing together and two standing separate. MY way we have all 7 still untied and the addition of two more...and these two more represent the Gentiles.

Now, if I was to venture a guess, i would say... The two candle sticks, being the two witnesses, stand beside the throne... apart from the 7 candle sticks... for a period of 1,000 years... then they are put to stand with the seven candle sticks as one... grafted unrto the vine at the end of the 1000 years. And so the 7 candle sticks are utnied with the 2 candle sticks as one, with the olive branches grafted unto the vine.

please.... what happened to BibleScribe? Is he no longer posting or unable to post, did he leave, like Jousha David (whom I lilked also) ? If so, I wish he would return.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Christ gave a new Revelation about the 'candlesticks' there in Rev.1:20. They are 7 candlesticks in Heaven to represent 7 Churches on earth. That's BOTH a Heavenly pattern, and an earthly pattern for the candlesticks. Thus the meaning is no longer just some mystical idea with no substance, but a literal meaning.

This is part of the problem with symbolism you and I are discussing on the symbolism thread. This isn't a "new" revelation. It defines itself within the context but then you want to carry it over to mean something it doesn't. There will be no two churches standing by the two witnesses. The use of candlesticks regarding them has already been determined. Can God use one symbol with two separate meanings? Of course he can. Symbolism creates "laws" when none should be created.



The prophecy of God's "two witnesses" is about two specific individuals coming in the mission of Elijah and Moses. But the two candlesticks are those of Christ's elect on earth that make the stand with them. The two candlesticks represent the two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two which Christ had no problem with. They are symbolic Churches for His elect, revealing how Christ's Church will still... be on earth to go through that time of the 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet.

By re-writing what Christ showed us regarding the seven candlesticks you get blinded to the reality and try to create a new theology based on a wrong conclusion of spiritual truth. You're not alone. All symbolists do this. It's not that seeing the truth of the occasional use of symbolism is bad. It's that symbolists take these individual signs and "create" a "law" regarding them that from "this point on that particular symbol should always be interpreted in this manner". BUT, there is no such law! They claim it's a matter of "scripture interpreting scripture" but that isn't true either. Symbolists abuse that wisdom and carry it to an extreme it was never intended.


Those who refuse to understand that Christ doesn't come to gather His Church until the 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet simply skip that candlestick meaning Christ gave in His Revelation. It conflicts with their man-made theories, so they choose to leave it out of that Rev.11 prophecy about the two witnesses.

It's not a meaning that Christ intended for His metaphor. We don't "choose" to leave it out. We leave it out because we know it is irrelevant. Rev. 11 has nothing to do with the seven churches. It is only in the "man-made" doctrines such as this that these things seem to make sense but these so-called paths of wisdom carved from symbolism only lead full circle back to the starting point of confusion.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Christ gave a new Revelation about the 'candlesticks' there in Rev.1:20. They are 7 candlesticks in Heaven to represent 7 Churches on earth. That's BOTH a Heavenly pattern, and an earthly pattern for the candlesticks. Thus the meaning is no longer just some mystical idea with no substance, but a literal meaning.

This is part of the problem with symbolism you and I are discussing on the symbolism thread. This isn't a "new" revelation. It defines itself within the context but then you want to carry it over to mean something it doesn't. There will be no two churches standing by the two witnesses. The use of candlesticks regarding them has already been determined. Can God use one symbol with two separate meanings? Of course he can. Symbolism creates "laws" when none should be created.

If you try to say the 7 candlesticks don't represent the 7 Churches of Rev.2 & 3, then you go directly against Christ's Own words as written. There's only 3 places in Revelation where He reveals those candlesticks, and Rev.11:4 is one of the three. And afterall, Revelation means a revealing, and that's how I meant 'new Revelaiton'. So if anyone claims our Lord's Book of Revelation is not new information imparted for the end, like Rev.1 does speak of, then they've missed it's main purpose for Christ's Church in the last days.

The prophecy of God's "two witnesses" is about two specific individuals coming in the mission of Elijah and Moses. But the two candlesticks are those of Christ's elect on earth that make the stand with them. The two candlesticks represent the two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two which Christ had no problem with. They are symbolic Churches for His elect, revealing how Christ's Church will still... be on earth to go through that time of the 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet.

By re-writing what Christ showed us regarding the seven candlesticks you get blinded to the reality and try to create a new theology based on a wrong conclusion of spiritual truth. You're not alone. All symbolists do this. It's not that seeing the truth of the occasional use of symbolism is bad. It's that symbolists take these individual signs and "create" a "law" regarding them that from "this point on that particular symbol should always be interpreted in this manner". BUT, there is no such law! They claim it's a matter of "scripture interpreting scripture" but that isn't true either. Symbolists abuse that wisdom and carry it to an extreme it was never intended.

There's no re-writing, no new theology in this, per Rev.1:20 the "candlesticks" are... the seven Churches. And because our Lord Jesus gave some specific last days tribulation events within those 7 Messages to the 7 Churches, He placed their importance within the timeframe of the very end also, and not just for the literal Churches in Asia in John's time. You've gotten off the main topic of that already. You might as well believe man's theology that has actually tried... to get away from Christ's Messages to the 7 Churches that are for all Churches all the way to His second coming, I speak of the false Church Ages theology that is instead being pushed as Biblical today from the old Dispensationalists.

Those who refuse to understand that Christ doesn't come to gather His Church until the 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet simply skip that candlestick meaning Christ gave in His Revelation. It conflicts with their man-made theories, so they choose to leave it out of that Rev.11 prophecy about the two witnesses.

It's not a meaning that Christ intended for His metaphor. We don't "choose" to leave it out. We leave it out because we know it is irrelevant. Rev. 11 has nothing to do with the seven churches. It is only in the "man-made" doctrines such as this that these things seem to make sense but these so-called paths of wisdom carved from symbolism only lead full circle back to the starting point of confusion.

You mean it is irrelevant to your man-made theology which preaches that the Church won't be here for the tribulation, which is un-Biblical.

Because our Lord showed John "two candlesticks" aligned with the "two witnesses" of Rev.11, and it's an event for tribulation timing, since the 2nd Woe-6th Trumpet is tribulation timing, and moreover what He showed within the 5th Seal, about the overcomers in Rev.7, those persecuted by the dragon after his casting out per Rev.12:7 forward, His revelation to His elect about the pseudo-Christ in Matt.24:23-26, what He told His elect in Mark 13 about being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, etc., then the "candlestick" symbol there in Rev.11 becomes of utmost importance to those called by God to make a stand for Christ in that time. But all you've done is try to use man's secular reasoning to try and say that meaning does not exist, even though I well know you admit the coming of a pseudo-Christ for the end, and Christ's elect making a stand against him. So really, you're going against that event which you've admitted in other posts.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "If you try to say the 7 candlesticks don't represent the 7 Churches of Rev.2 & 3, then you go directly against Christ's Own words as written."

Now you know I'm not saying that! I'm saying STOP there! The analogy does not carry over anywhere else in Revelations. Rev. 11:4 can only be understood by Zech. 4:11-14. (notice the numbers similarities) The map of symbolism is leading you astray, imo.

Your words: "And because our Lord Jesus gave some specific last days tribulation events within those 7 Messages to the 7 Churches."

Did He? There are promises for all believers of all ages there. Can some of the messages have meaning for modern day believers? Yes, however, they are all historical. There are no "specific last day trib events" spoken of. These churches had their own times of trib unrelated to us, but we can believe in the same promises and try not make the same mistakes. Can Rev. 3:10 speak to us? Yes, but it was also, historically, for that specific church.

Your words: "Because our Lord showed John "two candlesticks" aligned with the "two witnesses" of Rev.11

Christ does not show "two candlesticks" aligned with the "two witnesses". That is reading into scripture something that isn't there! The two witnesses are both the two candlesticks AND the two olive trees per Zech. 4. They are "candlesticks" because they are preaching the word and letting "their light shine", so to speak and they are olive trees because they are empowered by the Holy Spirit and speak mainly to those in Israel. The church is not in sight in this analogy and they don't have a relationship to the great trib. Imo, the great trib will be over before the 1st trump begins as depicted in the scriptures I have previously shown you.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Your words: "If you try to say the 7 candlesticks don't represent the 7 Churches of Rev.2 & 3, then you go directly against Christ's Own words as written."

Now you know I'm not saying that! I'm saying STOP there! The analogy does not carry over anywhere else in Revelations. Rev. 11:4 can only be understood by Zech. 4:11-14. (notice the numbers similarities) The map of symbolism is leading you astray, imo.

I'm sorry brother, but I don't think you're truly being honest with yourself on this. You have to admit that the information our Lord Jesus showed John in Revelation about the "candlesticks" as a symbol included new information which Zech.4 did not cover.

Also if you'll notice in Zech.4, the seven lamps are fed by the two olive branches which are the two anointed ones. Those seven lamps are the seven candlesticks our Lord defined in Rev.1:20 as the 7 Churches, which was a new revealing. It's the two olive trees, one on the right side of the bowl, and one on the left which are the two olive trees.

So yes, our Lord Jesus did... link 2 candlesticks with the 2 witnesses of Rev.11. You're simply in denial of it because it's obvious you haven't understood how the seven lamps of Zech.4 are about the seven Churches while the two olive trees are the two anointed witnesses.

As for what our Lord Jesus put in His 7 Messages to the 7 Churches, yes, they most definitely involve events all the way up to His coming, which is why... those 7 Messages are still in effect for all His Church on earth today.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Those seven lamps are the seven candlesticks our Lord defined in Rev.1:20 as the 7 Churches, which was a new revealing."

I'm afraid you're getting your symbolism mixed up. The seven lamps are different from the seven candlesticks. Rev. 4:5 identifies the seven lamps as the seven Spirits of God and these are not churches.

There are several theories ranging from the Perfection of the Holy Spirit to the seven ministries of the Holy Spirit as found in Is. 11:2, to seven angels in charge of seven continents. I admit, I don't know what they represent, I just know they are not the same as candlesticks. My opinion would be they are seven archangels assigned to various parts of the earth because in Rev. 5:6, they are "sent forth". I don't believe that God would waste one's time by assigning one to Antartica as one of the seven continents, but that's just a guess.

 

[gregg]

144,000 sealed -come from two candlesticks(churches)- witnessing in the spirit of the two standing before God-kinda like john the baptise

 

[us2are1]

Funny how the meanings Jesus gave about candlesticks in Revelation was conviently left out of most of the above explanations.

Nothing was conveniently left out . the scriptures that I posted tell exactly what and who the two witnesses are and your imagination does not in any way supersede that.

Rev 11
10 -------- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

The olive trees can be found here.

Zechariah 4
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

 

[MTPockets]

The witnesses should remind everyone of two couples of servants of God in the Old Covenant. First we are reminded of Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor, a descendant of David. They rebuilt the temple after the Babylonian exile. They were "the two anointed who stand by the Lord of the whole earth", (Zec 4:14). This means they were the executors of the will and the plan of God. The faithful assembly also spent hundreds of years in Babylon. She too will return to her own country and the temple, (the faithful church) will be rebuilt after God's own plan.
In Zechariah’s visions, Joshua and Zerubbabel were compared with a candlestick and two olive trees. Of course, it's nonsense to think that these two men will be resurrected during the endtimes. This text is not concerned with the persons of Joshua and Zerubbabel but with the spirit that was in them. It says, "And the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel ... and the spirit of Joshua ... and the spirit of all the remnant of the people", (Hag 1:14). Moreover, the second temple was not built by these two men of God only. Rather, these two men were the leaders of the remnant of the people which had the same spirit and disposition.
The Old Testament prophet clearly indicated that in the latter days men of this spirit and disposition would arise to build the house of the Lord. This proves that the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, "were serving not themselves but the church in these things", (1Peter 1:12).
The two witnesses represent a category of faithful who, during the period of the trumpets, restore and complete the spiritual house of the Lord. They are deemed worthy to escape the seductions and temptations of the world and to stand before the Son of Man, (Luke 21:36). Their hands complete the house of God, (Zechariah 4:9). They are the priest-kings, anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power; speaking as Jesus spoke in His name and doing the works He did.

The lamp stands indicate the light which the church of the endtimes spreads by means of the Sons of God. The olive trees indicate oil which and are an image of the saving and liberating power of the Holy Spirit.
Apart from their function as builders of the temple, the witnesses also have a duty towards the unfaithful/apostate church. Here we are reminded of yet another couple of Old Testament figures: Moses and Elijah. Malachi the prophet predicted, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes", (Mal 4:5).
Elijah lived during the great apostasy under Ahab and Jezebel. The falling away was so vast that it made him think he was the only faithful one left. To bring Israel to repentance, he restored the torn-down altar of the Lord and, at his prayer, fire descended from heaven onto the altar.
Once again, God stirred up the spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist, the last prophet of the Old Covenant. It says about him, "He is Elijah who is to come", (Matt 11:14). We also read that Jesus showed that Elijah would come again to restore everything, (Mark 9:13).

When the witnesses prophesy, history repeats itself. The religious leaders reject and hate their scripturally sound Gospel message. They attempt to injure them, to cause them to stumble, keep them from their task and soil their robe of righteousness. Injury of the inner man is always done by the powers of darkness. When necessary, the unfaithful church will use occultism to attack the Sons of God. But the church is out of the sight of the Dragon, (12:14) and the work of the Holy Spirit in the latter days will proceed.

The last witnesses preach the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the world, to all peoples, nations, and tongues. But the powers of darkness attempt to impress the witnesses by the deceitful wonders, signs and false teachings of Antichrist which damage the church and prevent her development whenever she comes into contact with them. The true faithful witnesses oppose this by fire which comes from their mouths and which destroys their enemies. This fire is their word of authority to deliver the adversary to perdition.

The words they speak are more powerful than those of their enemies. 2Thessalonians 2:8 says that the Lord slays the Lawless One by the breath of His mouth. The word of the Sons of God is made powerful by the Holy Spirit. The Lord spoke to Jeremiah the prophet, "I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall devour them", (5:14). Thus the witnesses slay the adversaries in the name of Jesus. Note: they do not slay the physical bodies of their enemies; rather they slay their souls and spirits which are completely in opposition to God and His people. In this way, it could be said that their preaching is a two-edged sword, deciding life or death. Those who are filthy become filthier still; the ungodly become still more godless, the unclean will become even more unclean, the occultist sinking even deeper into the pit, the confused even more confused. Any opposition against the servants of God behaves like a boomerang to their own destruction.

As Elijah made fire descend from heaven upon his enemies who tried to arrest him, so the judgment of God comes upon the adversaries of the witnesses of Jesus Christ. The words of Obadiah the prophet about the day of the Lord are fulfilled, "The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau stubble (image of natural and carnal Christianity); they shall burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor to the house of Esau; for the Lord has spoken", (Obediah 18).

Just as Elijah, they have the power to close the heavens for those who resist and persecute them. After their ministry, no vestige of the works and the fruits of the Holy Spirit remains in the unfaithful church. If the people of the Old Covenant obeyed the commandments of God, they would receive the early and the late rain on their land. Conversely, if they followed other gods, the Lord would close the heavens so that no rain would fall, (Deut 11:14-17). Joel's prophecy also contains two sides: the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh, but the impenitent unfaithful church will fall victim to "blood, fire, and columns of smoke".

The two witnesses also have power to turn water into blood and to smite the earth with various plagues. These images remind us of the time of the exodus of God's people under Moses. While the plagues came over Egypt as a punishment for the Egyptians, they were also as deliverance for the people of Israel. Thus it is that, in the great tribulation, the faithful church will march out victorious; led by the Sons of God.
Water is an image of spiritual life while blood is an image of natural life. Genuine eternal/spiritual life will have vanished completely from the unfaithful/apostate church and the people will possess only an outward and natural/earthy religion. They lose whatever they had and have no resistance left against the attacks of the evil powers from out of the heavenly places.