Understanding the Trinity.

[JohnPaul]

You're looking at a fraction of the church if you are looking at the RCC. Read my comment above.... God knew men would cause divisions in the church, and he accounted for this when he designed the church, and used this as a means of teaching those who are his to mature and grow as they learned to love one another.

I can call a Calvinist a brother even though i am what one would call an Armenian, I can call a Wesleyan a Brother even though I am Baptist, I can call a charismatic a Brother even though I am a fundamentalist..... Some are still stuck in the denominational immaturity, and following the teachings of those men and doctrines they are following, I still love them even though I may disagree with them..... We all know in part and when maturity comes we begin to ask what truth does my brother have that I may learn more of the fulness of Christ. The truth, when we are mature enough to receive it, Unifies, not divides.

I said the RCC is the only one I can comment on as it's the Church I belonged to, I have been to other Protestant Churches and they all seem to preach the same thing except without the effigies and veneration of Mary.

 

[JohnPaul]

I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses hold Christ as Devine, just that he is not God, as his Father who is Jehovah is God, which is right.

 

[JohnPaul]

Because Jesus is God, that’s why He can walk through walls, heal the sick, raise the dead and walk on water.

Because God the Father gave Christ those powers to perform miracles and heal the sick?

Why does Jesus always refer to my Father, if he were one and the same?

 

[David H.]

Yes, just as they were unacceptable in the congregations in the first century. No one was at liberty to introduce their own ideas. It is one thing to hold a different view of something, but something else entirely to try to impose that view on others and thereby create divisions in the congregation. Why do you think Christendom is such a divided and disunited mess?

We have a saying in the church that states in essentials unity in non-essentials liberty.... We also agree with Paul that we all know in part, and that for any one human to grasp the whole counsel of God is impossible. You have the watchtower society that declares it is the source of Truth, We have the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth that leads us into truth. The very first thing the Holy Ghost reveals to us is that Jesus is God incarnate, and at the confession that Jesus Christ is THE Lord We can test the Spirit who is of God and who is not....(1 Corinthians 12:3) We have assurance of this fact and do not need to point to uncertainties of translations, or to theological arguments. That is the thing J.W.'s lack is assurance, and why the doctrines of the watchtower have changed over the years and even contradict each other.

What you and other J.W.;s are under is known as Milieu Control, and Mystical manipulation.... read the first two parts of the following link if you do not know what these things are....

Mind-Field: Eight Ways to Identify Religious Brainwashing (Part 1 of 8) | Liberty for Captives

 

[Scott Downey]

Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
JW's bible version, the New World Translation, changes the words to agree with their ideology, so it is a perversion of the scriptures. inaccurate.
That is what they read and study, so no doubt they are of a different religion than Christianity.

"The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group’s doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs.

The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. "

 

[JohnPaul]

Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
JW's bible version, the New World Translation, changes the words to agree with their ideology, so it is a perversion of the scriptures. inaccurate.
That is what they read and study, so no doubt they are of a different religion than Christianity.

"The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group’s doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs.

The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. "

It simply translates the Bible into modern English so that we can understand it better. Who speaks Olde English anymore, Thou and Thee and so forth?

 

[David H.]

Why does Jesus always refer to my Father, if he were one and the same?

Jesus is God incarnate, Father and Son and Holy ghost are distinct persons of the One God.

It simply translates the Bible into modern English so that we can understand it better. Who speaks Olde English anymore, Thou and Thee and so forth?

Not all modern translations are what they claim to be. Do Some research on some KJVonly writings.... I am not KJVonly myself but their arguments need to be accounted for by any person reading and studying the Bible.

 

[Scott Downey]

I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses hold Christ as Devine, just that he is not God, as his Father who is Jehovah is God, which is right.

No, they say Jesus is created, so a part of the creation. And also is the angel, Michael.

 

[Scott Downey]

It simply translates the Bible into modern English so that we can understand it better. Who speaks Olde English anymore, Thou and Thee and so forth?

No, it changes the words so that it means something different.

Like this

John 1:1 NWT JW bible
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god.

John 1:1 English Standard Version
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Wrangler]

God was manifested in the flesh

Again, your reflection in a mirror is not you. God's likeness shown in the flesh is not God.

Reading in trinitarian doctrine unto unitarian text does NOT supercede the explicit verses - such as John 17:3 and 20:17 - where Jesus talks about his God and how his God is the only true God. To that you say?

 

[Keiw]

Well said. This is why assurance is such a big problem for J.W.'s

All in darkness condemn the NWT--The only translators who had enough love for God to put his name back. Condemned by all lacking the love. Wicked men removed the name. Wicked keep it out. God put it there because he wants it there.

 

[Keiw]

The 3 fold nature of God as distinct persons is just a given according to the scriptures, as Christ came in the form of God and it also says Christ was equal with God.
Isaiah 9:6 and Philippians 2 point this out very. very clearly, unmistakably so.

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Yhwh is called Almighty God. Jesus never is. God called Moses God capitol G -He is not God either.
Everlasting Father because he laid his life down and paved the way for some to gain eternal life-that is how. He is not the Father-YHWH-He is the son.

 

[Keiw]

Because Jesus is God, that’s why He can walk through walls, heal the sick, raise the dead and walk on water.

FYI - Jesus’ rose in the same body, that was transformed into an immortal body, but still had the scars from the crucifixion in His hands, feet, and side - and Isaiah 52:14 says Jesus was beaten beyond recognition, so His face was disfigured then, too - and therefore He would look different after He rose.

That’s why Mary thought he was the gardener, until He spoke and she recognized His voice.

He had the same voice because it was the same body.

If Jesus is God. Then how come God did it all through him( Acts 2:22) Jesus didnt do it. How come Jesus does 0 of his own inititive but lives 24/7-365 to do his Fathers will? John 5:30

 

[Scott Downey]

If Jesus is God. Then how come God did it all through him( Acts 2:22) Jesus didnt do it. How come Jesus does 0 of his own inititive but lives 24/7-365 to do his Fathers will? John 5:30

Those kinds of questions are no good for scripture declares Christ is in the form of God, and that Christ was equal with God.

 

[Wrangler]

Those kinds of questions are no good for scripture declares Christ is in the form of God, and that Christ was equal with God.

No. Scripture does not declare that Jesus was equal to God! You are confused by the twisted NOT, which says he did not think it robbery. By contrast to your trinitarian misinterpretation, Jesus explicitly said God is greater than he is.

Obviously, trinitarians take their idol over the explicit words of our Lord & Savior. Such idolatry!

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

You are biblically illiterate.

Some non Christian rabbis even agree the trinity is in the Hebrew Scriptures, and wrote about it in the Zohar.

The plurality of God is found in Genesis 1, where it says that in the beginning, ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth....

Elohim is not the singular name of God. It is the PLURAL name for God, translated literally as GODS.

And the plural name of God said, let US make man in OUR image.

So instead of the singular name of God saying let ME make man in MY image, the plural God said US and OUR.

The plurality of God shows up in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible.

The above is just one fact of many that shows that anti trinitarians are unlearned in biblical truth.

Just because non-Christian teachers agree that the trinity is in the OT and wrote about it in their uninspired texts, it doesn't make the doctrine biblical. If anything, that's all the more reason to reject it. The Orthodox Jews believed and practiced a host of things that contradicted the Bible, as evidenced by Jesus telling them that they didn't know God.

The only "rabbi" whose word i accept as absolute is Jesus', since He is the only one who is to be called "Rabbi" anyway(Matt. 23:8). While you arrogantly accuse me of being illiterate, you seem to have glossed over such a basic bible tenet. This is a prime example of what i said about how truly biblical doctrines need no councils to affirm. And since Jesus is the only Rabbi i acknowledge, i look at what He taught over the course of His earthly ministry and see absolutely nothing about God being a trinity in unmistakable language. It doesn't even come up when Phillip asked Jesus to show the Father to the disciples.

If it was in the Bible, it would've surely been in John's writings since he probably wrote more about the nature of God than any apostle or prophet. And yet, the only place a pro-trinity passage shows up in his writings is the passage that was unscrupulously inserted by trinitarian translators. The people who are familiar with the history behind this doctrine won't be tricked into ignoring it just because trintarians are inconvenienced by it.

 

[Pierac]

Jehovah Witness, do not recognize Christ nor do they worship Christ as Lord, they are not saved. To them Christ is only a man, a person God created. Michael the archangel incarnated as a man, Michael being the first created being is who Jesus is to them. The Question for Jehovah’s Witnesses: Who Is Jesus?


If Jesus is the Son of God, then He is equal with God.

God calls Himself 'I Am' Jesus also call Himself 'I Am'


Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”


John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Mark 12

35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:


‘The Lord said to my Lord,

“Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’


Romans 10, People who are confessing He is God's Christ are those who believe that he is not just a man God highly exalted, But that He is the Christ of God.


8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Jehovah Witness, do not recognize Christ nor do they worship Christ as Lord, they are not saved.


Matthew 10

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


People who deny who Christ is, are not saved.


Matthew 13, everywhere Christ says He is the son of God, He makes Himself equal with God, yet as a distinct person in the form of God


13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”


14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”


15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”


16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


So when Christ says this, He is identifying Himself as equal with God who is His Father.


Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”


The Son of MAN was never an archangel-angel, Hebrews 1

Scott… I’m no Jehovah Witness… But why do you post scripture that has nothing what so ever … to comfirm your point of view???

You speak of the Christ as if somehow that is another name for God, or it’s Jesus' last name!

If you are the Christ… It means you were anointed by God! You cannot be God… and then claim to be anointed by that God… as in the (Christ)

For the Love of God… can you at least get your Terminology correct??
Paul

 

[Pierac]

You may like this in confirming the JW are not saved
Worship Jesus Worship God Deity of Christ

Jesus and the Father are both equally worshiped at the same time in Heaven by all of his creation:
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev 5:11-14)

Hence, Jesus is worshiped in the presence of the Father and in the same way that the Father is worshiped. Not only that, but it also says every creature is praising the Father and Jesus, thereby excluding Jesus from the created class, since he can't be praising himself! That means Jesus is not Michael the archangel, as some were wrongly taught.

etc...

Spoken as one whom does not read scripture... But puts his brown nose where it pleases his Pastor!

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

Pay attention Scott... Jesus is talking directly to YOU...

Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Wipe off your nose Scott
Paul

 

[Pierac]

The Colossians Hymn

In so far as it is used by the "traditionalists" to justify belief in a personally preexistent Christ, the passage in Colossians 1:15-19 ranks right up there with John 1 and Philippians 2. It is easy to see how this conclusion is reached, when the passages read in the gridlock of "orthodoxy."

Paul wrote:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in

him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,


We must carefully examine both the overall context and the particular phrases before rushing to

the conclusion that the apostle is teaching that Jesus the son of God created the heavens and the

earth, and that he is therefore coequal with God the Father, the second member of the Trinity.

Everything we have looked at so far would indicate that Paul has not suddenly done a back flip

from his clearly stated belief that there is "one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus the

Messiah" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5-6, etc.).


The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.


The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).


Kuschel in his book "Born Before All Time? p.331. Says, "the direct context of the Colossians

hymn is itself of an eschatological kind and represents the ‘shift of the ages.’" G.E. Ladd in his

book A Theology of the New Testament, p.323. states. “In other words, ‘the New Testament does

not merely picture the resurrection of Jesus as the resurrection of a corpse, but as the emergence

within time and space of a new order of life.’"


When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more

importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection."

Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who

will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new

order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is

a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

To be baptized into Christ is to already in prospect be "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom.

6:5). We are already "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). Because Christ has been

raised to the glory of the Father, we are already in promise "glorified" (Rom. 8:30). We have

been transferred into "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13).


It is this tectonic shift in the ages that is the context of this hymn of praise. We are looking at a

whole new order of things. The waves of this continental shift from the resurrection of Christ are

rolling towards the distant shoreline of the coming Kingdom of God with tsunami-like power.

Old authorities and structures have been rattled, for Christ is now the head of God's of new

creation. A new dynasty in God universe has been inaugurated. This is the cosmological contexts

of the individual phrases we will now examine.

Those kinds of questions are no good for scripture declares Christ is in the form of God, and that Christ was equal with God.

Then according to your confused View... Get on your Knees and worship Moses.... Because He spoke as GOD!!! In the first person!!!

"You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."

So you apply to Jesus what you will not apply to Moses... as they SPEAK the Same! Why? Because they are both AGENTS of the one true GOD... But you know not... as you have not been told this by your Pastor whom tells you what to believe!

Paul

 

[Cooper]

Because God the Father gave Christ those powers to perform miracles and heal the sick?

Why does Jesus always refer to my Father, if he were one and the same?

Well, when Jesus spoke of his Father, he was speaking of Yahweh.