We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[Marty fox]

All these are symbolic. The thing is, when one is locked into a paradigm which doesn't recognise it, it wont be recognised......even can't be.
We could use the history and experience of the religious Jews as an example. Their view was such that even in the face of Jesus raising the dead and feeding thousands with crumbs, they wouldn't believe. They loved their paradigm to the point they would never question it.....the result being, their eyes and ears were closed.

These words are so very true especially on this forum

 

[Truth7t7]

I explained it all in post #13

Not one word in post #13 speaks of bodies killed, laying in a Jerusalem street

Marty your claim wants to focus on a small percentage of the chapter, and ignore the rest as if it doesn't exist

Now what are you going to do with dead bodies in a Jerusalem street, and their being raised to heaven as their enemies watch

Will you now entertain the forum in trying to keep your teaching alive, regarding the two witnesses symbolically being the written prophets and the law, smiles!

 

[quietthinker]

The Lamb is coming to kill, so the answer is everyone at that timeframe.

The Lamb is coming to rescue his people.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the

Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What is God's wrath? The wicked think its arbitrary punishment but in fact it is exposure to themselves; exposure of what they have so long denied.
Paul tells us in Romans 1 what Gods wrath is. It is giving them over to the consequences of their choices, one of which is intense fear.
They have kept themselves distracted with their sins/ delusions and now there is nowhere to hide.

'Giving them over' meaning, because they have pushed God's protection away again and again in defiance, he finally says, alright, have it your way.
The Hebrews bitten by serpents in the desert is a parallel scenario. The desert they were traversing was full of snakes and scorpions. It was only because of God's protection they were able traverse that geography safely. When they insisted on their recalcitrance they pushed Gods protection away and were left to the consequences.

 

[ewq1938]

The Lamb is coming to rescue his people.

He does that before he arrives at Armageddon, where he kills an entire army.

What is God's wrath?

Mainly found in the vials of wrath.

The wicked think its arbitrary punishment but in fact it is exposure to themselves; exposure of what they have so long denied.
Paul tells us in Romans 1 what Gods wrath is. It is giving them over to the consequences of their choices, one of which is intense fear.
They have kept themselves distracted with their sins/ delusions and now there is nowhere to hide.

That's not what the bible says, look at the vials again.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[quietthinker]

He does that before he arrives at Armageddon, where he kills an entire army.





Mainly found in the vials of wrath.






That's not what the bible says, look at the vials again.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

You draw the conclusions you have because of a misunderstanding of the symbolism given. Of course if you don't identify its symbolism you are left to your imagination as to what it might all mean.

The key is Jesus and knowing him.....ie, understanding these prophecies through a knowing of his character. Trying to understand Revelation purely cognitively will not get you to arrive at its intent. For example, The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are figurative descriptions some of which we are told overtly, like the dragon represents Satan. Rev.20:2

Deciphering when a symbol is used and when not is important. Jesus describes himself coming as a thief, ie unexpectedly and the admonition to watch and keep ones garments so one is not caught naked and exposed are symbols Rev.16:15

 

[Truth7t7]

You draw the conclusions you have because of a misunderstanding of the symbolism given. Of course if you don't identify its symbolism you are left to your imagination as to what it might all mean.

The key is Jesus and knowing him.....ie, understanding these prophecies through a knowing of his character. Trying to understand Revelation purely cognitively will not get you to arrive at its intent. For example, The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are figurative descriptions some of which we are told overtly, like the dragon represents Satan. Rev.20:2

Deciphering when a symbol is used and when not is important. Jesus describes himself coming as a thief, ie unexpectedly and the admonition to watch and keep ones garments so one is not caught naked and exposed are symbols Rev.16:15

And unfortunately your imagination and symbolism removes much of the literal seen in the Revelation

(Example In Revelation Chapter 11)

1.) Literal bodies that die

2.) Literal bodies laying in a literal street

3.) Literal people celebrating and exchanging gifts

4.) Literal people watching literal bodies being raised to heaven

5.) A Literal great earthquake

 

[quietthinker]

And unfortunately your imagination and symbolism removes much of the literal seen in the Revelation

(Example In Revelation Chapter 11)

1.) Literal bodies that die

2.) Literal bodies laying in a literal street

3.) Literal people celebrating and exchanging gifts

4.) Literal people watching literal bodies being raised to heaven

5.) A Literal great earthquake

Is it literal? ...You interpret these as literal but if they are not, and I'm suggesting they are not, then all the barking is misplaced.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm suggesting they are not

Of course you believe they aren't literal, but you have no explanation to discount the literal words seen in my holy Bible in Revelation Chapter 11 that say they are literal

Feel free to give your interpretation of that seen below, waiting?

(Example In Revelation Chapter 11)

1.) Literal bodies that die?

2.) Literal bodies laying in a literal street?

3.) Literal people celebrating and exchanging gifts?

4.) Literal people watching literal bodies being raised to heaven?

5.) A Literal great earthquake?

 

[Patrick1966]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

 

[quietthinker]

Of course you believe they aren't literal, but you have no explanation to discount the literal words seen in my holy Bible in Revelation Chapter 11 that say they are literal

Feel free to give your interpretation of that seen below, waiting?

(Example In Revelation Chapter 11)

1.) Literal bodies that die?

2.) Literal bodies laying in a literal street?

3.) Literal people celebrating and exchanging gifts?

4.) Literal people watching literal bodies being raised to heaven?

5.) A Literal great earthquake?

You are locked into the literal and will defend it because you don't understand the issues which Revelation is addressing are cosmic with a mirroring here on earth spanning time and principle.
Jesus and his reality are the central figures in those issues....and that's more than a mouthful in itself...and needs to be understood before any meaningful interpretation can be arrived at.

 

[Earburner]

The two witnesses are just that, not a big mystery. They are two prophets of God to appear at an appointed time to testify to the nations with signs and wonders and power of God the Father and Jesus the Christ and the Holy Ghost.

People have really strange beliefs they use when interpreting prophecy, but I think most people have normal interpretations, the strange interpretations seem to navigate to forums like this to spread their diseased ideas. A disease likes to spread to do the most damage.

John the Baptist and Jesus, the two anointed ones was a joint ministry.
John for 6 mos.
Jesus for 3 years
Aka known as 1260 days, 42 mos. Also as 3.5 days

 

[Timtofly]

I’m talking about people

Then your claim implies, no believers are on earth that last few years. The only witness on earth at that time is a Bible containing the OT. How is the NT or even the book of Revelation even going to be a witness as they are not the law and prophets?

The NT has been around since the first century. It has already revealed what would happen over the next 2,000 years. Part of that Revelation is that these two witnesses are all there is during the last 3.5 years. You call them the law and prophets. That would be the OT. From Scripture and your interpretation, the NT and church will not be around at all during those 1260 days.

Revelation cannot be the revealing of first century events. Yet we see there is a future time when all they (people) will have is the law and prophets according to your implication. At the time Jesus died there was not a written NT. Of course all they had was the OT Scripture. Your interpretation just turns Revelation into a history lesson of the first ministry of Jesus on the earth. Then, after Jesus, the law and prophets themselves, were no longer on the earth.

There is a reason John mentioned 4 witnesses. Moses and Elijah did represent the law and prophets. Now you have two NT witnesses as well. The NT has 2 witnesses just like Moses and Elijah. Those 2 witnesses being future would be the common sense interpretation. They are on the earth at the very end. We still use both the OT and NT today, and Moses and Elijah were not killed in the first century. Neither was the OT done away with, if that is your interpretation of Revelation 11. Revelation 11 is still a future event.

 

[Marty fox]

Then your claim implies, no believers are on earth that last few years. The only witness on earth at that time is a Bible containing the OT. How is the NT or even the book of Revelation even going to be a witness as they are not the law and prophets?

The NT has been around since the first century. It has already revealed what would happen over the next 2,000 years. Part of that Revelation is that these two witnesses are all there is during the last 3.5 years. You call them the law and prophets. That would be the OT. From Scripture and your interpretation, the NT and church will not be around at all during those 1260 days.

Revelation cannot be the revealing of first century events. Yet we see there is a future time when all they (people) will have is the law and prophets according to your implication. At the time Jesus died there was not a written NT. Of course all they had was the OT Scripture. Your interpretation just turns Revelation into a history lesson of the first ministry of Jesus on the earth. Then, after Jesus, the law and prophets themselves, were no longer on the earth.

There is a reason John mentioned 4 witnesses. Moses and Elijah did represent the law and prophets. Now you have two NT witnesses as well. The NT has 2 witnesses just like Moses and Elijah. Those 2 witnesses being future would be the common sense interpretation. They are on the earth at the very end. We still use both the OT and NT today, and Moses and Elijah were not killed in the first century. Neither was the OT done away with, if that is your interpretation of Revelation 11. Revelation 11 is still a future event.

Read post #13 and you see what I'm saying

 

[Marty fox]

Not one word in post #13 speaks of bodies killed, laying in a Jerusalem street

Marty your claim wants to focus on a small percentage of the chapter, and ignore the rest as if it doesn't exist

Now what are you going to do with dead bodies in a Jerusalem street, and their being raised to heaven as their enemies watch

Will you now entertain the forum in trying to keep your teaching alive, regarding the two witnesses symbolically being the written prophets and the law, smiles!

Yes it is but I explained that they were symbolic of Jesus' life

 

[ewq1938]

You draw the conclusions you have because of a misunderstanding of the symbolism given.

No, that is the error you make. I find that very often the critique someone makes of another actually is the exact problem with their own understanding and you are dead on right in that identification of the problem, just wrong on whom it applies to.

 

[Timtofly]

Read post #13 and you see what I'm saying

So those people living prior to the Cross? Not any one today or tomorrow?

That is why your "us" cannot include us. It was only appropriate for those prior to the Cross. That is when the Law and Prophets was fulfilled.

 

[quietthinker]

The Lamb is coming to kill,

A Lamb coming to kill? Jesus tells us it is the Devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy; that's his objective. Jesus has come to give life.
Jesus is not a killer.... of anyone.

'while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly' .....has it been forgotten? Has Satan convincingly reversed the roles in peoples minds and turned God into the killer? Consider the clever trick he's pulled off painting God with his own attributes.

We need to speak well of God....that was Jesus' objective. Painting him as one who is itching for revenge while calling it justice; one who is going to get his pound of flesh because its coming to them; one who prepares fires to slow roast people for eternity are all realities of the Devil.

God does not reward evil with evil. Jesus says, pray for your enemies, do good to those who curse you.....so that you may be sons of your father in heaven. Have the implications of Calvary slipped from our understanding and have we set up a false narrative? Would God require of us a standard which he doesn't adhere to himself?

 

[ewq1938]

A Lamb coming to kill? Jesus tells us it is the Devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy; that's his objective. Jesus has come to give life.
Jesus is not a killer.... of anyone.

Then I guess you reject these scriptures?

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[quietthinker]

Then I guess you reject these scriptures?

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

'Then I guess you reject these scriptures?
I reject how you interpret them!

 

[ewq1938]

'Then I guess you reject these scriptures?
I reject how you interpret them!

I don't interpret them. They don't need interpretation. Jesus kills! That cannot be argued or disputed.