We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[Gottservant]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past
[....]
they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Your faith has helped me, thankyou.

You have the eye of the Holy Spirit, I don't doubt that.

 

[Marty fox]

Your faith has helped me, thankyou.

You have the eye of the Holy Spirit, I don't doubt that.

You’re very welcome thanks for the kind reply. This parable is the key to understanding who the two witnesses are or arn’t

Actually it isn’t a parable it’s an actual event as it is the only so called parable that Jesus named someone

 

[quietthinker]

I don't interpret them. They don't need interpretation. Jesus kills! That cannot be argued or disputed.

We interpret everything ewq....even the language we speak is a collection of sounds which needs and gets interpreted by our brain in order to make sense of them. That which is unfamiliar does not compute. I think you would understand that?

I have come to know Jesus; he is not violent. He allows us to choose as we will knowing that all choices have inherent consequences. Poor choices are not in our interest, they will kill just as our first parents because of their poor choices eventually died. God did not kill them. Subsequently, the charge that Jesus kills can be argued and disputed.

 

[ewq1938]

We interpret everything ewq....even the language we speak is a collection of sounds which needs and gets interpreted by our brain in order to make sense of them. That which is unfamiliar does not compute. I think you would understand that?

I posted scriptures that don't need interpreting unless one has a preconceived belief, and they must interpret away/change what the scriptures say. Jesus does kill at the second coming.

I have come to know Jesus; he is not violent.

Then you don't know him very well because he will was violent when he was here (a whip and moneychangers), and he will be VERY violent when he returns.

Subsequently, the charge that Jesus kills can be argued and disputed.

No it cannot be.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

[quietthinker]

I posted scriptures that don't need interpreting unless one has a preconceived belief, and they must interpret away/change what the scriptures say. Jesus does kill at the second coming.



Then you don't know him very well because he will was violent when he was here (a whip and moneychangers), and he will be VERY violent when he returns.




No it cannot be.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

....how else would you kill children....are there options? Don't you find the language peculiar?....firstly, Jesus killing children and then the strange way of putting it.
In its context could it be saying other than what you imagine it is saying?

Oh, and the money changers in the temple area. What do you think he used the whip for?....it appears you think he cut some of those characters up? Do you think a crack of a whip might have been the only thing that would move the cattle languishing in the Palestinian sun? ....and he turned over the tables of the money changers. Do you really think spilling a few coins qualifies as violence?....have a think about options that are consistent with a man would rather suffer the torture and die than to call down ten thousand angels at a moments notice.

 

[Truth7t7]

God did not kill them. Subsequently, the charge that Jesus kills can be argued and disputed.

Is Destroy a better word than Kill?

Genesis 19:13KJV
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

Psalm 145:20KJV
20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

 

[quietthinker]

Is Destroy a better word than Kill?

Genesis 19:13KJV
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

Psalm 145:20KJV
20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Ask yourself this question, would God condemn the methods of the enemy and then use the same tactics?

 

[David in NJ]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Good Morning Marty,

God told us, in His word, who the Two Witnesses of Revalation are = Enoch and Elijah

 

[Truth7t7]

Ask yourself this question, would God condemn the methods of the enemy and then use the same tactics?

The written scripture is before your eyes, and your still are in denial of biblical truth "sad"

Do you deny the lake of fire also, in eternal conscious punishment of the wicked in?

 

[Marty fox]

Good Morning Marty,

God told us, in His word, who the Two Witnesses of Revalation are = Enoch and Elijah

Good morning, Dave which verse?

 

[David in NJ]

Good morning, Dave which verse?

Same as with many a truth in scripture = the answer was given in the Record/Account of Scripture.

The Two witnesses are also called the Two Prophets = Revelation 11:7-10
When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

Question: Who did God designate?
Answer: the Two Prophets HE specifically removed off the earth, alive!

Peace Marty and if you can stop over i have fresh whole bean coffee.

 

[Ziggy]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Judaism (law) and Christianity (prophets)
These two will bring remembrance of God's power before the end.
They will try and are trying to stomp them out now, but they won't succeed.
When they are taken up, we go up. What's left behind will be darkness and destruction.

I agree, we are the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation, and that prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes.

Look at the bills they have to pass for anti-semitism and pro-life protections.
Sodom and Gomorrah is playing out in our classrooms and in our streets.
The only ones opposing them are Jews and Christians.

Indecent exposure.. not only God's law but man's as well.
And preaching we're on the road to hell.

If this isn't the law and prophets, or the two witnesses of God's Grace and Wrath, I don't know what is.

Interesting times for sure.
Hugs

 

[Marty fox]

Same as with many a truth in scripture = the answer was given in the Record/Account of Scripture.

The Two witnesses are also called the Two Prophets = Revelation 11:7-10
When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

Question: Who did God designate?
Answer: the Two Prophets HE specifically removed off the earth, alive!

Peace Marty and if you can stop over i have fresh whole bean coffee.

Thanks I'll b right over

Well those verses don't name them did you see the OP and post #13?

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks I'll b right over

Well those verses don't name them did you see the OP and post #13?

God did not need to name them in Revelation.

The Scripture named them in Genesis and 2 Kings

Enoch and Elijah are the only Two Prophets whom God removed from the earth without seeing death.

Their 'time to die' was set aside by God for a future date which we see in Revelation.

Revelation has the fallen angels coming down to earth which is under the witness of Enoch.
Revelation has Jezebel riding the Beast which is under the witness of Elijah.

"There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be......."

 

[Ziggy]

Revelation IMO is a book of prophetic symbology.
It foretells past, present and future events that have happened, were happening during the early church and is happening now.
We are the future. And history repeats itself even though the names and places have been changed into symbolic images.
It's like looking through a glass darkly and obscured.
You have to learn to expand your thinking.
Revelation is happening all around us all the time.

Revelation has the pit of hell being unleashed upon the world. Evil creatures given power to hurt the saints.
Same thing happened in the days of Noah. Same devils that infested Jerusalem when Jesus walked the earth and cast them out... again.
All this immorality and crime happening in the world around us. It's everywhere.
Because Jerusalem or the city of saints is everywhere. It's spiritual not physical.

Sometimes you have to adjust your spectacles to get a clearer picture.
You need to have an open mind and willing to let the Lord lead you.

The future is found in Jeremiah chapter 4, then Revelation 21, which brings us back to Genesis chapter 1.
It's cyclical.. everlasting, neverending circle of life.

This is the end of the beginning, the way God found it before his spirit hovered over the deep:
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

How it got that way is recorded in the book of Revelation.

But if you read Jeremiah chapter 4 you see it is mankind through wars that bring this devastation.
And then end is this:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Which is described here:

Jer 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
Jer 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Revelation 21 is the same as Genesis 1.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

At the same time God is creating a new heaven and a new earth He is also creating a garden called Eden or Paradise.
God creates the man from the dust of the earth, and places him IN the garden.
After the man sins he is sent back to the earth.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

And so the wheel goes round and round.

In the book of Revelation who is cast out of heaven? In the book of Genesis who is cast out of Paradise?

At the same time Jesus comes into the world to bring the light, the people are sitting in great darkness and Satan is ruling over them.
This is the night and day occupying the same space at the same time.
And we are there now with both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Satan fighting a spiritual war on this earth now for the souls of mankind.

When God creates a New heaven and Earth in Rev 21, he also is creating New Jerusalem or Paradise.
And those who are faithful will be planted in this garden. This is Adam and Eve or Jesus and the church.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Jesus is our Ark, He is our rapture.
Abide in Him.

Hugs

 

[Marty fox]

God did not need to name them in Revelation.

The Scripture named them in Genesis and 2 Kings

Enoch and Elijah are the only Two Prophets whom God removed from the earth without seeing death.

Their 'time to die' was set aside by God for a future date which we see in Revelation.

Revelation has the fallen angels coming down to earth which is under the witness of Enoch.
Revelation has Jezebel riding the Beast which is under the witness of Elijah.

"There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be......."

But what about the message of the OP?

 

[David in NJ]

But what about the message of the OP?

Elijah's ministry/witness carries with him both the Law and the Prophets.

Enoch's ministry/witness is even greater for it is:
#1 pre-law = GRACE
#2 it is pre-flood = face to face with fallen angels = Matt 4:1-11

These Two Prophets had a specific witness for a specific audience and time that encapsulated ALL of Genesis to Revelation.

This is the Witness by which the world will be judged:
a.) Genesis/Beginning = the Word was God, Salvation to those who believed the Word of God
b.) Law & Prophets = Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, Salvation to those who believe the Word of God
c.) Beginning to End = Genesis to Revelation covered = the WORD of God returns with Salvation and Vengeance = 1 Thess & 2 Thess

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And how does two prophets symbolize the law and prophets? The Amill interpretation fails here like it does everywhere.

It isn't just Amils who believe the two witnesses are symbolic. Some Premils believe that as well. The person you replied to is an Amil and he believes they are two individuals. So, being Premil does not mean you have to see the two witnesses as two individuals and being Amil does not mean you have to see the two witnesses as symbolic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not one word in post #13 speaks of bodies killed, laying in a Jerusalem street

Marty your claim wants to focus on a small percentage of the chapter, and ignore the rest as if it doesn't exist

Now what are you going to do with dead bodies in a Jerusalem street, and their being raised to heaven as their enemies watch

Will you now entertain the forum in trying to keep your teaching alive, regarding the two witnesses symbolically being the written prophets and the law, smiles!

Why is it so hard for you to believe that those things could be symbolic within a book where things like a lamb, candlesticks, olive trees, stars, heads, horns, beasts, a dragon, a harlot, many waters, etc. are all symbolic?

 

[Earburner]

God did not need to name them in Revelation.

The Scripture named them in Genesis and 2 Kings

Enoch and Elijah are the only Two Prophets whom God removed from the earth without seeing death.

Their 'time to die' was set aside by God for a future date which we see in Revelation.

Revelation has the fallen angels coming down to earth which is under the witness of Enoch.
Revelation has Jezebel riding the Beast which is under the witness of Elijah.

"There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be......."

Before the blood of Christ was shed, no one under the OC had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Therefore Enoch and Elijah are not in Heaven. Only Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead". For Enoch and Elijah to be in Heaven, means that they were translated, raptured, resurrected, without the shed blood of Christ, and beat Jesus out of being in first place.

However all others, Moses included, who were of faith, being of OC Israel, who were waiting for the Promise to come (Jesus), God specifically remembered them in "a book of remembrance before God". Malachi 3:16.
You can see them in Rev. 6:9-11, and are now resting in Jesus, aka the Book of Life, waiting for the Day to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.

I suggest that is where Enoch, Elijah etc. are now, and if they shall appear anywhere, they shall be with Jesus in His Glorious appearance from Heaven, to gather all here who believe in Him, in that day.