We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[David in NJ]

Before the blood of Christ was shed, no one under the OC had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. However they who were of faith, being of OC Israel, and were waiting for the Promise to come, God specifically remembered them in "a book remembrance before God". Malachi 3:16.
You can see them in Rev. 6:9-11, and are now resting in Jesus, aka the Book of Life, waiting for the Day to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.

Everyone who belongs to the WORD that was God(OC) and became flesh and dwelt among us(NC) is written in the Lambs Book of Life.

 

[quietthinker]

The written scripture is before your eyes, and your still are in denial of biblical truth "sad"

Do you deny the lake of fire also, in eternal conscious punishment of the wicked in?

whatever answer I give you T77, I doubt you'll be content unless I quack as you do but I will say this,
The purpose of scripture is to testify to Jesus with Jesus being the full revelation of what God is like, ie his character..... which ultimately was shown on Calvary.

When we come across records/ accounts in scripture that do not align with this principle or in our understanding of how we think it should be, we are obliged to ask for the sheer sake of being intelligent and credible human beings, why the discrepancy.

Living in a state of cognitive dissonance makes understanding with insight impossible.....and just in case you are unfamiliar with the term 'cognitive dissonance', here is a definition. I think there is value in taking note of it.

'In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.'

Believing that God is Love while at the same time believing he will roast people forever, ie those who don't hold his values is nothing short of cognitive dissonance.

 

[quietthinker]

Before the blood of Christ was shed, no one under the OC had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Therefore Enoch and Elijah are not in Heaven. Only Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead". For Enoch and Elijah to be in Heaven, means that they were translated, raptured, resurrected, without the shed blood of Christ, and beat Jesus out of being in first place.

However all others, Moses included, who were of faith, being of OC Israel, who were waiting for the Promise to come (Jesus), God specifically remembered them in "a book remembrance before God". Malachi 3:16.
You can see them in Rev. 6:9-11, and are now resting in Jesus, aka the Book of Life, waiting for the Day to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.

I suggest that is where Enoch, Elijah etc. are now, and if they shall appear anywhere, they shall be with Jesus in His Glorious appearance from Heaven, to gather all here who believe Him, in that day.

FYI, 'first born' means preeminent. It doesn't mean he/she who is physically born first. Example; Esau was born first but Jacob was preeminent.....Ishmael was the first son of Abraham but Issac was preeminent.

 

[David in NJ]

Before the blood of Christ was shed, no one under the OC had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Therefore Enoch and Elijah are not in Heaven. Only Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead". For Enoch and Elijah to be in Heaven, means that they were translated, raptured, resurrected, without the shed blood of Christ, and beat Jesus out of being in first place.

However all others, Moses included, who were of faith, being of OC Israel, who were waiting for the Promise to come (Jesus), God specifically remembered them in "a book of remembrance before God". Malachi 3:16.
You can see them in Rev. 6:9-11, and are now resting in Jesus, aka the Book of Life, waiting for the Day to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.

I suggest that is where Enoch, Elijah etc. are now, and if they shall appear anywhere, they shall be with Jesus in His Glorious appearance from Heaven, to gather all here who believe in Him, in that day.

Enoch and Elijah are not part of the Rev 6:9-11 group of Saints.

Enoch and Elijah have not been killed yet, but they will be.

 

[Earburner]

Everyone who belongs to the WORD that was God(OC) and became flesh and dwelt among us(NC) is written in the Lambs Book of Life.

There is LORD, and then there is Lord. Jesus said that His Father was greater than himself. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and is the express image of the Father, being God the Son.

 

[Earburner]

Enoch and Elijah are not part of the Rev 6:9-11 group of Saints.

Enoch and Elijah have not been killed yet, but they will be.

So, are you you saying that they are in heaven, with their mortal flesh and blood bodies? That would be impossible.

 

[Earburner]

FYI, 'first born' means preeminent. It doesn't mean he/she who is physically born first. Example; Esau was born first but Jacob was preeminent.....Ishmael was the first son of Abraham but Issac was preeminent.

We are talking about resurrection here and not who is chosen to be "first" between two candidates.
Let's try it this way:
Rom. 8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Heb. 12
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

NO ONE has been bodily resurrected into New Life, except Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

There is LORD, and then there is Lord. Jesus said that His Father was greater than himself. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and is the express image of the Father, being God the Son.

The LORD from OT is the WORD who was God.

God the FATHER is the FATHER of our LORD Jesus Christ.

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

 

[David in NJ]

So, are you you saying that they are in heaven, with their mortal flesh and blood bodies? That would be impossible.

They are not in heaven with their mortal flesh bodies.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that those things could be symbolic within a book where things like a lamb, candlesticks, olive trees, stars, heads, horns, beasts, a dragon, a harlot, many waters, etc. are all symbolic?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that the things seen below will be "Literal" that have no symbolic interpretation given

I'm Waiting for your symbolic interpretation of the five items listed below?

1.) Literal bodies that are killed and die

2.) Literal bodies that lay in a Literal street in Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified

3.) A Literal world celebrating their deaths, exchanging Literal gifts

4.) Literal bodies that stand upon Literal feet,, that are Literally raised to heaven, as their Literal enemies on this earth watch

5.) A Literal Earthquake, that follows the Literal prophets being raised to to heaven

Revelation 11:7-13KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

The LORD from OT is the WORD who was God.

Jesus is the Lord that appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre, he is and always will be "The Lord God", creator of all things

Genesis 18:1-8KJV
1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

 

[Truth7t7]

Believing that God is Love while at the same time believing he will roast people forever, ie those who don't hold his values is nothing short of cognitive dissonance.

Those who deny simple written scripture suffer from your presented cognitive dissonance

God flooded the world for 40 days/nights, as men, women, and children drowned, only 8 were saved in the ark, is that a fairy tale? (Genesis Chapter 7)

God destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone from heaven, was that a fairy tale also? (Genesis 19:24-25)

God will judge the unsaved wicked to the eternal lake of fire, is that a fairy tale also? (Revelation 20:11-15)

 

[quietthinker]

NO ONE has been bodily resurrected into New Life, except Jesus.

ohhh? you don't think Moses was and those whose graves were opened and came out when Jesus was resurrected?

 

[quietthinker]

God will judge the unsaved wicked to the eternal lake of fire, is that a fairy tale also? (Revelation 20:11-15)

It is a misunderstanding and a misapplication.
Consider what these words of Jesus might mean...

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:8-11
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Jesus tells us the Devil has already been judged. I suppose he qualifies as 'a wicked'? does that mean he's already in the lake of fire or is he still prowling around like a roaring lion?.....or is it he has phone access to outside the lake and is running his show from within the flames.

I'm serious. Holding a position has implications and if one is interested in intellectual honesty, these implications must be faced and addressed.

 

[ewq1938]

....how else would you kill children....are there options? Don't you find the language peculiar?....firstly, Jesus killing children and then the strange way of putting it.
In its context could it be saying other than what you imagine it is saying?

He says he will kill, you reject that Jesus kills. That's the issue here.
Rev 19 shows Jesus killing yet, again, you deny that will happen.

Oh, and the money changers in the temple area. What do you think he used the whip for?....it appears you think he cut some of those characters up? Do you think a crack of a whip might have been the only thing that would move the cattle languishing in the Palestinian sun? ....and he turned over the tables of the money changers. Do you really think spilling a few coins qualifies as violence?

No, it's the whipping that is the violence. The throwing tables around is intense anger.

....have a think about options that are consistent with a man would rather suffer the torture and die than to call down ten thousand angels at a moments notice.

Both are true and things that were choices on his part. I don't deny his peacefulness nor do I deny his anger or violence or killing.

 

[ewq1938]

So, are you you saying that they are in heaven, with their mortal flesh and blood bodies? That would be impossible.

Nothing remotely impossible about it.

 

[ewq1938]

ohhh? you don't think Moses was and those whose graves were opened and came out when Jesus was resurrected?

In the desert? No. Some saints arose from the graves and went into Jerusalem which excludes Moses because he did not enter the promised land so he was buried far away from that area.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm serious. Holding a position has implications and if one is interested in intellectual honesty, these implications must be faced and addressed.

Use your intellectual honesty and answer the questions below, presented to you a 2nd time

1.) God flooded the world for 40 days/nights, as men, women, and children drowned, only 8 were saved in the ark, is that a fairy tale? (Genesis Chapter 7)

2.) God destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone from heaven, was that a fairy tale also? (Genesis 19:24-25)

 

[Ziggy]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that the things seen below will be "Literal" that have no symbolic interpretation given

Because the entire book of Revelation is a "vision" that God gave to John. It is a prophecy regarding the spiritual attributes and not the carnal worldly view.
It is a KEY book that is used to interpret spiritual things not physical.
It's a code deciphering book.

Jesus and Nicodemus having a conversation about being born again. Nicodemus didn't have the depth of understanding to interpret physical from spiritual.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

I think some people are afraid of having their head in the clouds and rather have their feet planted solidly on the ground.
But with God, you have to Come Up Here to see and understand. You have to be willing to open your mind to things we don't fully understand.
This scares a lot of people who only believe in their 5 senses. If I can't touch it, taste it, see it, smell it or hear it, then it isn't real.
But the truth is those 5 senses are the illusion and not the means by which one understands spiritual truth.

Those 5 senses are temporary for a temporary existance in this life. They were created for living in a carnal world.
But the mind and the spirit have no boundaries unless you put chains on them and refuse to let them freely explore...

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

The book of Revelation is a vision. A dream.
It's like when Joseph dreamed about the sun and moon and stars bowing down to him. It wasn't literal. it was a prophecy, a vision.
One that requires interpretation from beginning to end.
Or consider the dreams of the Butler and the Baker. Interpretation was required.
Josephs visions of 7 lean cattla and 7 fat cattle. Interpretation was required.
And so it is with the book of Revelation. Interpretation is required.


Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Use your intellectual honesty and answer the questions below, presented to you a 2nd time

1.) God flooded the world for 40 days/nights, as men, women, and children drowned, only 8 were saved in the ark, is that a fairy tale? (Genesis Chapter 7)

2.) God destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone from heaven, was that a fairy tale also? (Genesis 19:24-25)

Those weren't dreams or visions. They are actual verifiable facts.
But these also have more than one layer. There is spiritual truth underlying the physical catastrophes that occured.
And that is the condition of the hearts and minds of the people that lived through them.
Why was there a flood? Why did fire fall from heaven?
The answer to these questions is the spiritual truth of what caused them.

Both times Love was nowhere to be found. Only evil thoughts continually... in both cases only one escaped. Noah and Lot.
The road is narrow and few there be that find it.
The vision of Revelation is a world filled with evil intentions.
The only thing standing in it's way today is faith.
And the only ones with true faith are Jews and Christians. And only some of each will escape.

At the end of this age they will believe they have killed the faith of God in all true believers.
They will dance and party and have parades and show their nakedness (criminal hearts and minds) with no shame.

But we know...
In the end, God Wins.

Hugs