We are all sinners to perfection that God desires

[dev553344]

I have always called myself a sinner, and I know some think they are righteous and don't refer to themselves as sinners. I was then reading today in Romans and saw that Paul called himself a sinner and would like to quote it as an example of how we should see ourselves before our perfect God:

Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?

What his means is that just because Jesus died for our sins that does not glorify us to God's glory, we are still considered sinners and need to follow the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The point is at some later time after we die we will become as the angels serving God, and receive some of his glory and live more perfectly. But for now we are sinners.

 

[dev553344]

Romans 3:7-12

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[dev553344]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[dev553344]

Yet we are justified thru faith in Jesus the Christ. That we may return to be with God in heaven and be part of his loving family:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

I take it that we are all sinners in that we all have sinned and struggle with some kind of sin but because God exists we are able to be good.

 

[dev553344]

I take it that we are all sinners in that we all have sinned and struggle with some kind of sin but because God exists we are able to be good.

Well the concept that I believe in is that God is perfect and good. We can receive his holy spirit and act good and do good things thru the promptings of the spirit. It is like a Father that takes a toddlers hand and directs them correctly.

But we are not perfect in our love for God and man. And in that we are sinners. But we are justified by Jesus the Christ and the atonement that we can now be in the presence of God. And receive a full love, joy and peace as well as the rest of the fruits of the Holy Spirit:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

And in that we are saved and can be happy children of God.

 

[dev553344]

We are also justified by Jesus Christ's atonement to receive the "Holy" Spirit. Which probably couldn't be with us until the atonement was made so that we could be justified to receive God into our lives and soul. We are in Christ and Christ in us now thru the atonement. Now we can be guided by the hand of God to do good, not that we are good in relation to Godly good. We are taught that no one is good except for God.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

[Ghada]

We are all sinners to perfection that God desires​

You have a God that desires you to be a sinner? Well, there is a god that certainly desires that of all men.

And he desires all men to be as perfect sinners as possible.

 

[Ghada]

I have always called myself a sinner,

Congratulations. You and the rest of the world. You can loudly say it, because you're not lying.

and I know some think they are righteous and don't refer to themselves as sinners.

Yes, that's us Christian saints. Neither are we lying.

We'd be liars to call ourselves sinners, and you'd be a liar to call yourself saint.

 

[MatthewG]

Hey @dev553344, I am still a sinner too, but saved by the grace of God, becoming a Child of his through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Son of God, my friend.

Some believe calling yourself a sinner is a disgrace... well if that is the case, I rather be a disgrace to them.

 

[dev553344]

Hey @dev553344, I am still a sinner too, but saved by the grace of God, becoming a Child of his through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Son of God, my friend.

Some believe calling yourself a sinner is a disgrace... well if that is the case, I rather be a disgrace to them.

Yep, that is the lesson of the parable of the Tax collector and Pharisee. The Pharisee saw the Tax collector as a disgrace. Jesus said the Tax collector accepting he was a sinner made him more justified. We are justified in two ways, thru works and faith. Faith for those that have no works.

We know to look on a woman in lust after her is a sin in the heart. Perhaps not confessing your shortcomings to God is also a sin of the heart. It takes a lot of pride to say you're not a sinner, truth be told that in order not to be a sinner you would have to be perfect. The bible spells out more along the lines of perfection, like selling all you have and giving it to the poor and following Jesus.

So how many people on these forums have sold all and gave it to the poor? I would think the evidence says that none have. Or they wouldn't have access to the internet. Hmmm, well I don't call people sinners, but I think it is apparent that no one is perfect except for God and perhaps the resurrected and perfected people that passed thru death.

 

[MatthewG]

Yep, that is the lesson of the parable of the Tax collector and Pharisee. The Pharisee saw the Tax collector as a disgrace. Jesus said the Tax collector accepting he was a sinner made him more justified. We are justified in two ways, thru works and faith. Faith for those that have no works.

We know to look on a woman in lust after her is a sin in the heart. Perhaps not confessing your shortcomings to God is also a sin of the heart. It takes a lot of pride to say you're not a sinner, truth be told that in order not to be a sinner you would have to be perfect. The bible spells out more along the lines of perfection, like selling all you have and giving it to the poor and following Jesus.

So how many people on these forums have sold all and gave it to the poor? I would think the evidence says that none have. Or they wouldn't have access to the internet. Hmmm, well I don't call people sinners, but I think it is apparent that no one is perfect except for God and perhaps the resurrected and perfected people that passed thru death.

Exceptional wisdom, Devin.

 

[dev553344]

Exceptional wisdom, Devin.

Thanks.

 

[MatthewG]

You are welcome, you are correct when it comes down to pride. Most dont see pride as a bad thing. While its okay to be prideful in a sense of (perhaps you were able to some type of work, or perhaps got a task done and complete; postivily), there is a negative version of pride. Pride which sees itself set on top of a mountain above everyone else, seated on the throne as a king above everyone else except if they just like you; you treat them differently than those someone might deem insuffecient. Pride can be deadly and kill ones own heart and God will allow you to destroy yourself if you go that route, just look at Pharoah and all the time that he had waited to let the people of Israel go, allowing God to continue to send his wrath upon him, before finally giving up but even then he continued to send troops after the hebrews and God through the faith of moses rose up the dead sea so the hebrews had passed by and then left egypt in ruin, and those chasing after dead in the waters.

 

[dev553344]

You are welcome, you are correct when it comes down to pride. Most dont see pride as a bad thing. While its okay to be prideful in a sense of (perhaps you were able to some type of work, or perhaps got a task done and complete; postivily), there is a negative version of pride. Pride which sees itself set on top of a mountain above everyone else, seated on the throne as a king above everyone else except if they just like you; you treat them differently than those someone might deem insuffecient. Pride can be deadly and kill ones own heart and God will allow you to destroy yourself if you go that route, just look at Pharoah and all the time that he had waited to let the people of Israel go, allowing God to continue to send his wrath upon him, before finally giving up but even then he continued to send troops after the hebrews and God through the faith of moses rose up the dead sea so the hebrews had passed by and then left egypt in ruin, and those chasing after dead in the waters.

I think God chastens the prideful that are like that. So they always get theirs eventually. Some don't see it when it happens and it just keeps happening till they see it. Then maybe they back down off their judgment seat.

 

[MatthewG]

I think God chastens the prideful that are like that. So they always get theirs eventually. Some don't see it when it happens and it just keeps happening till they see it. Then maybe they back down off their judgment seat.

Devin,

What you say here reminds me of a section of a letter wrote by Paul, when he wrote to the Romans, in which to me is a spiritual guideline for believers even today to consider. When it comes to dealing with people who are prideful.

“Love must be free of hypocrisy. Detest what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor, not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never repay evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the LORD. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12‬:‭9‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 12:15-21 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Ne | New American Standard Bible - N

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Ne

bible.com

 

[dev553344]

Devin,

What you say here reminds me of a section of a letter wrote by Paul, when he wrote to the Romans, in which to me is a spiritual guideline for believers even today to consider. When it comes to dealing with people who are prideful.

“Love must be free of hypocrisy. Detest what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor, not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never repay evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the LORD. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12‬:‭9‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 12:15-21 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Ne | New American Standard Bible - N

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Ne

bible.com

Recently I've seen people chastised. It hasn't been easy, but that scripture is true. We are to be patient in long suffering to people who take advantage of us. God will take care of them and guide them how he feels. And that is true for people God loves. He chastises them sometimes if they need it. There are also a lot of people that get away with terrible behavior until the day they die. And that is when I am worried about them for the state of their judgment. I'm old enough to have seen things like that.

God also comforts us when we mourn or are taken advantage of. He has been there for me encouraging me in my sufferings. Have I been chastised? Yes. But I'm learning so that I am chastised less perhaps. And comforted more.

I'm reminded of David and Goliath. Was Goliath powerful and thought he could take advantage of Davids small size? I think that is similar to people that take advantage of others. When people take advantage of others it is a type of coveting, whether it be many things, it is assuming they can use you for whatever reason like property to be taken. Whether it's theft, murder, sexual nature, bearing false witness, etc.

We are here and guided by God to learn how to get along as one big happy family under our Father in Heaven, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Ghost. There is no mistake God has chosen to call us brothers and sisters in Christ. We are to be a loving family and that means learning to respect others and their freedoms and properties so that one day we can live in peace with God in heaven.

Cheers!

 

[Ghada]

Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?

Paul is asking why some people are judging him as a sinner. How in the world does that become Paul calling himself a sinner? He's asking why some say he is a sinner, not saying he is a sinner.

We are reading the Lord's words given to Paul to write. If the Lord is calling His apostle and all His people sinners, then He would just have Paul say so, and Paul would instead write, "I am still judged as a sinner." And if Paul did know he was a sinner, then he would certainly not ask why he is judged as one,

Paul was rebuking the Christian sinners of his day, that were demanding all Christians be sinners as themselves, and call themselves sinners too. We see in the verse, that it's nothing knew today, but is as old as unrepentant sinners on earth trying to claim all people are sinners as themselves, as though they could escape the righteous judgment of their works by God, because "everyone is doing it".

And so we still find some Christian sinner today still trying to make Paul the apostle a sinner too. And some even say he is the chiefest of sinners.

It is a peculiar thing that Christian sinners demand that all Christians be sinners too, and yet Christian saints make no such demands on the unrepentant. We can preach righteousness, but we certainly don't try to make any Christian do it. And also, Christian sinners go so far as to call every Christian a sinner, whether we are or confess it or not, and yet we Christian saints don't even think about trying to call the sinners among us, as being saints.

 

[Wynona]

We are saints. In Christ, we are to die to sin, according to Romans 6:1-13.

 

[Ghada]

So now, let's look at a verse twisted out of context, in context of other verses.

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

And so we see the continuing context is of the slander made by Christian sinners against Paul, as well as slandering the gospel of Jesus Christ, by preaching their own gospel of sinners saved by grace, who are no more damned for their continued sinning with the world.

And that of course is exactly what we see on this site: Christian sinners preaching continued sinning, their sinning is no more condemned by God with the world, and they judge all Christians as being sinners like themselves too.

Romans 3:7-8 is rebuking the Christian sinners, that judge the Christian saints as being sinners too.

We can also see where "let us do evil, that good may come" is preached by the sinners' Christian doctrine of being already forgiven of all sinning past, present, and future. It's saying, "Let us continue sinning, that the promised good of forgiveness may come".