What would you do different?

[shnarkle]

Actually, there is the option to put someone on ignore. Just click on their name, and you will see the option there.

Thank you.

 

[Nancy]

Hello @shnarkle,

I did understand your question. However, I responded as I felt I should in the light of the context of the verse you quoted. As for me, I don't know what I would do in those circumstances except cast myself upon God's mercy. Yet, if I could have it in me to do that, I would not be either a 'wolf' or a 'tare' would I? I would be incapable of it, not being a sheep or wheat!

I have had a further thought in regard to Israel, and the words concerning the Potter: that he had power over the clay, 'of the same lump' to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour. It was the same lump. They were all of Israel (of the same lump): some became part of the believing remnant, the rest of the nation would fail to acknowledge their Saviour, Messiah and King. Yet in the age to come, God will forgive Israel's iniquity and remember it's sins no more, when it ultimately repents and receives the Messiah, as prophesied. That generation saw the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple and were scattered throughout the globe, a loammi people, no longer the people of God. Yet that will not always be so, they will be restored.

God is a merciful God, slow to anger and swift to bless.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you so much shnarkle,
for being a blessing to me.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

This is interesting. I have never connected that the "whole lump" was speaking of Israel. I thought it was all people, Christians also. It brings me comfort to know this as, the Calvinists refer to this as ALL people, Christians too.
And, your answer to the OP is also comforting, better than offing oneself, lol...yes, "cast ourselves upon His Mercy"...and they ARE new everyday ♥

 

[charity]

There's a certain logic to assume that given that we're all fallen because of Adam's sin, we must all be redeemed through Christ. This is more in line with the parable of the separation of the wheat from the chaff than the tares from the wheat. We die to this world like the husk is discarded that the kernel may grow. If that's the case, then it's really not a matter of eternal damnation in the traditional sense, but one of simply waking up to the reality of Christ alive in the world.

Until we're ready to see that life isn't about us, but rather about Christ, we're condemned to live a life of torment. This is what is within us, and must manifest as torture to everyone around us. When we see that we're intimately connected to Christ so much so that our lives are lost in Christ, then as Augustine once said, we "step into eternity".

Hello @shnarkle,

Lovely as this is, and I thank you for sharing it. Is it in line with the subject of the original question? Based on Romans 9:21-22 and the vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction?

* What is coming home to me in these verses at the moment, is that God 'endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', to shew His 'wrath', and to 'make His power known': but also that He might 'shew forth the riches of His glory'.

* He has a plan and purpose, and a battle to wage: it is necessary that His power should be known, His wrath also, as weaponry in the battle that has, and is, raging, since the beginning of time. It requires endurance and long-suffering on His part, that He might also shew forth the riches of His glory upon the redeemed: those saved by His wondrous grace, on the basis of the sacrifice of His Beloved Son; before the watchful eyes of the heavenly host, who marvel at the manifold wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10) portrayed to their wondering gaze.

* When we weigh His suffering in the balances, along with the destiny of heaven and earth, all of these questions fail to loom large any more, don't you agree?

* God had to do what He had to do to get the job done. Who are we to question the means by which He achieved His eternal goal, which is one of glory and grace, and born of great love.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you for your patience.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

This is interesting. I have never connected that the "whole lump" was speaking of Israel. I thought it was all people, Christians also. It brings me comfort to know this as, the Calvinists refer to this as ALL people, Christians too.
And, your answer to the OP is also comforting, better than offing oneself, lol...yes, "cast ourselves upon His Mercy"...and they ARE new everyday ♥

Hi @Nancy

I have not noticed this before either: but going back and reading the chapter in which these verses came (Romans 9:21-22), it is Israel that is the subject of it. From 9:1-11:36.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[shnarkle]

Hello @shnarkle,

Lovely as this is, and I thank you for sharing it. Is it in line with the subject of the original question? Based on Romans 9:21-22 and the vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction?

* What is coming home to me in these verses at the moment, is that God 'endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', to shew His 'wrath', and to 'make His power known': but also that He might 'shew forth the riches of His glory'.

* God had to do what He had to do to get the job done. Who are we to question the means by which He achieved His eternal goal,

I'm not really questioning God's means or motives as much as I'm pondering how I approach this reality. When Noah was building the ark, the rest of the world looked on with disdain, contempt, wrath and ridicule. God endured that with longsuffering as well, well over 100 years by my calculations. This didn't preclude him from withholding the fountains of the deep or the subsequent rain for the next forty days.

However, if I'm reading you correctly, this may be pointing out a certain poetic justice which is that God's wrath is produced within those vessels of wrath themselves. They effectively self destruct. They're swept away by their own wrath. Being a vessel of mercy is only due to the mercy we've been given by God. The mercy God supplies is manifested in those vessels, and passed along.

St. Francis points out that it is in forgiving that we're forgiven, but it works the other way as well, in that when we experience forgiveness, we learn how to forgive as well.

Likewise, the wrath we produce, is the wrath that condemns us, and God pours it on because that's what a vessel of wrath wants.

 

[brakelite]

It most certainly is, and I pointed that fact out in your last post. I will do the same here as well.



Yes, that is correct.



Here is where you have wandered off onto your own topic rather than address the Given topic. I am not asking you what you think God could or couldn't say or do. I am presenting a situation which Paul presents in Romans 9, and asking you to place yourself into that HYPOTHETICAL situation Paul presented as if this had been revealed to you.

Instead of doing that, you have decided to pretend that God didn't reveal this to you at all, and you have even provided reasons which I couldn't care less about as this has nothing to do with what I posted.

Sorry that your response is irrelavent, but it is what it is.

Let us put the situation Paul was talking about into perspective. He was speaking of vessels of wrath, for fit destruction right? And he was speaking to the following...
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

That is, those who were complaining to God regarding what they had become...vessels of wrath...sinners. Now you asked me what would I change if God told me I was a vessel of wrath. But I say that is impossible, first, because I'm not complaining about what God has made me in fact, I thank God every day and praise Him wholeheartedly for the way He has led me the past 40+ years. ...nor am I any longer a sinner, a vessel of wrath.
And Paul replied in similar fashion...he was classifying himself as a vessel of mercy...
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

You mentioned in a later post that God was patient with those who refused Noah's warnings. That's the point. They refused. I haven't. They were vessels of dishonour because they refused. Thus they were fit for wrath. But the ark was there ready and welcoming for anyone who would choose to walk in. Until it starting raining...then they would have been crying out to God...why have you made me thus???? Nothing to do with God. They were drowned because of their own sin and refusal to repent. Same as those in Sodom. Lot pleaded with his own family to leave...but even his own married children mocked thinking he had lost his mind. But the invitation was put out there...and Lot himself over the years was living as an example of righteousness and was well thought of being "in the gate" as an elder of the city, yet still no-one heard, understood, or cared...not even his wife.
God doesn't arbitrarily appoint people to destruction without a cause. It is our sin, and our pride and stubbornness , that separates us from God's mercy.

 

[shnarkle]

you asked me what would I change if God told me I was a vessel of wrath. But I say that is impossible,

The question was not if it was possible for you to be a vessel fitted for destruction. The question was "what if you were a vessel fitted for destruction?" Do you see the difference? Probably not.

What if I asked you what you would do if you were Judas about to betray Jesus? You would inform us that it is impossible for you to be Judas? Gee thanks for that newsflash. We never considered the possibility that you are or were Judas in the first place. The fact is that if you were Judas about to betray Jesus, you would the exact same thing Judas did. Wanna know why? Because you're Judas, that's why.

Paul is presenting a HYPOTHETICAL situation, and you have taken it to be fact when it isn't a fact at all. If you don't want to answer the question posted, you don't have to. You also don't have to spend your earnest of eternity attempting to prove that you're actually a vessel of mercy. No one is suggesting that you're damned.

You're the only one who seems to be doubting your own salvation here. Frankly, it you're that doubtful about it, perhaps you might want to actually consider the question I posted then. Otherwise, you're protesting way too much for someone who is secure in their eternal reward.

Again, I'm not asking for people who believe they're vessels of mercy to respond to this question as though I just asked what a vessel of mercy would do if they knew they were a vessel of mercy. I'm not asking for people to prove or defend their belief that they're saved. I'm not asking for your testimonials spotlighting your logical conclusions for why no one can be a vessel fitted for destruction.

Answer the question I posted or ignore it. I'm not interested in your opinion of a completely different hypothetical situation. I'm interested in the hypothetical situation I posted. My post was not intended to be an invitation to pretend that my question is irrelevant or impossible.

 

[Waiting on him]

There is with Paul, and most would agree that Paul's writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree with that assessment? Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is God, or at least divine?



Quite true!



Again, no argument.



So why are you admittedly wasting your time with this HYPOTHETICAL?

I received Christ when this was revealed to me, see Paul also was a vessel of destruction, remember he wasted the church, but God forgave him. Because of his ignorance and unbelief.

He has the power to change vessels.

 

[Waiting on him]

Be not conformed to the image of this world
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
The mind of Christ?

 

[shnarkle]

I received Christ when this was revealed to me,

Again, you seem to be ignoring the question I actually posted. I'm not asking you if you are a vessel fitted for destruction, but hypothetically what you would do if God revealed you were a vessel fitted for destruction. No one receives Christ when they are damned to hell for all eternity.

He has the power to change vessels.

Please be so king as to reveal where scripture describes wolves being changed into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Better yet, please note that the OP isn't about your ideas or theology, but about what you would do IF you were a vessel fitted for destruction. Note also the particulars of this OP which states:

I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

I

 

[Waiting on him]

Again, you seem to be ignoring the question I actually posted. I'm not asking you if you are a vessel fitted for destruction, but hypothetically what you would do if God revealed you were a vessel fitted for destruction. No one receives Christ when they are damned to hell for all eternity.



Please be so king as to reveal where scripture describes wolves being changed into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Better yet, please note that the OP isn't about your ideas or theology, but about what you would do IF you were a vessel fitted for destruction. Note also the particulars of this OP which states:



I

What you asking is impossible, for three years Christ tried to persuade the Pharisees of what your asking with no success. The only truth about God or ourselves we’re allowed to see is what he allows us to see.

And I’ll say again, Paul was a murderer, blasphemer, waster of the church, this in my opinion is or was a wolf.

 

[shnarkle]

What you asking is impossible,

On the contrary. It is not only possible, but I actually asked the question in this OP. What is quite evidently impossible is for you to actually address the question that was asked. If you have no desire or are incapable of addressing the question asked, then why are you bothering to high jack the OP with your own irrelevant posts? Why not just start your own thread instead?

 

[Waiting on him]

On the contrary. It is not only possible, but I actually asked the question in this OP. What is quite evidently impossible is for you to actually address the question that was asked. If you have no desire or are incapable of addressing the question asked, then why are you bothering to high jack the OP with your own irrelevant posts? Why not just start your own thread instead?

Then you should have no problem showing me that it’s possible for God to show someone their doomed to hell with no chance of redemption??

 

[Waiting on him]

Romans 8:20 KJV
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Tecarta BibleThe word vanity here means empty.
The creature (vessel) was made subject to emptiness?
Of Him who has subjected the same in hope?

 

[Enoch111]

Then you should have no problem showing me that it’s possible for God to show someone their doomed to hell with no chance of redemption??

Why are people responding to troll shnarkle? Just another individual determined to sow the seeds of spiritual confusion.

 

[Enoch111]

...why are you bothering to high jack the OP with your own irrelevant posts?

And why are you attempting to hijack this forum?

 

[shnarkle]

Then you should have no problem showing me that it’s possible for God to show someone their doomed to hell with no chance of redemption??

Not only is it possible, but Paul explicitly points out that God is just and righteous to do so. Again, simply read the OP to see Paul's own words. Better yet, how about addressing the HYPOTHETICAL question presented instead of rambling off on any more of these pointless tangents?

If you are incapable of addressing a simple HYPOTHETICAL question, why are you even bothering to respond at all?

One does not need to show that unicorns or fairies exist in order to ask a HYPOTHETICAL question regarding involving unicorns or fairies.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not only is it possible, but Paul explicitly points out that God is just and righteous to do so. Again, simply read the OP to see Paul's own words. Better yet, how about addressing the HYPOTHETICAL question presented instead of rambling off on any more of these pointless tangents?

If you are incapable of addressing a simple HYPOTHETICAL question, why are you even bothering to respond at all?

One does not need to show that unicorns or fairies exist in order to ask a HYPOTHETICAL question regarding involving unicorns or fairies.

Ok my friend, I’ll play what if. If God was to tell me that I had no chance at redemption, I would most likely continue in my sins, trying to justify myself in any way possible and die eventually, but, awake to judgement, and as I’m cast off into the lake of fire the last thing I’d most likely hear is all of creation applauding we’re rid of that, and I’d have to agree he’s righteously done so.

 

[Waiting on him]

Ok my friend, I’ll play what if. If God was to tell me that I had no chance at redemption, I would most likely continue in my sins, trying to justify myself in any way possible and die eventually, but, awake to judgement, and as I’m cast off into the lake of fire the last thing I’d most likely hear is all of creation applauding we’re rid of that, and I’d have to agree he’s righteously done so.

And also unicorns do exist, it’s in the Bible.
And fairies, well San Francisco is full of them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?

Why the added stipulation that God will not repent or change His mind? I mean, yes, whoever His anger falls on is going to be destroyed. That will happen. But if God has repented or changed His mind in the past, couldn't one hope He would do so again?

So it's not that I couldn't answer your question. I just have to first know why you say there is an added stipulation that included with your question is the rule that God will never repent or change His mind. I don't understand why you put that in there...

We are all vessels fit for destruction and deserve death because of who our parents are. But He calls all men to repent, and if they do, He also changes His mind...