Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

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quietthinker

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Noone knows what you actually believe about Salvation as found as Jesus on The Cross.
Post that Thread.
Ive posted over 100 that deal with that Topic, and about 300 more that deal with much of Paul's Theology.
So...... it would be some kind of interesting for you to to try to explain it. @quietthinker
I believe Jesus is my Saviour. I have peace inside and there is no confusion. Is that difficult to understand or believe?

I know you have a great sense of self importance with all your Topics and all your many dealings with Pauls Theology. It's the self importance that's so odious Behold. There is nothing that draws me to your explanations....they are as sterile and cold as an operating table.
If you do, try not to become False, like Episkopos, and teach that....>"The Cross is not about Forgiveness".
And try not to become false like St Steven and teach that "everyone goes to Heaven"..>>"there is no Hell".

Give it a shot, or just do what you do, and post obtuse, strange little thoughts.. that flow out of your head like hot air out of a pink balloon.
And here you attempt to tell me what I shouldn't do. (aren't the 'thou shalt nots' in that Law which you so vehemently oppose?....so how is it that you employ them so readily?)
 
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Behold

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I believe Jesus is my Saviour.

I asked you to explain the Cross of Christ, as Salvation.

You didnt, because you can't.

So, dont point your self righteous little finger at me, or i'll ask you to explain something else that a 6 yrs old Summer Church Camp Christian can explain, that you can't.


Let me know how you would like to proceed.
 

quietthinker

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I asked you to explain the Cross of Christ, as Salvation.

You didnt, because you can't.

So, dont point your self righteous little finger at me, or i'll ask you to explain something else that a 6 yrs old Summer Church Camp Christian can explain, that you can't.

Let me know.
I realise your objective is to get into a debate. My observation of your style has me concluding you are not interested in discovery but rather intent on telling the other how wrong they are. I have no interest in playing your unhealthy game.

I have invited you to tell me what you think I believe because of you are constantly objecting to things I don't believe. Soooo, you say in your previous post that you don't know what I believe, I would ask, if you don't know, what are you objecting to?
 
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Behold

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I realise your objective is to get into a debate.

Not at all.
My now realized objective was to show the members what you dont know, and how you will try to defect , to hide it.

So, You can now talk all day long about ""motives and debate"" and rocket science and the price of tea in china....but you can't answer my question, that asked you to explain The Cross of Christ.......as i told you that you can't.

So, that is not a good sign, as anyone who names the Name of Jesus should be able to explain The Cross.
After all, thats what you would have to do, if you had ever tried to witness to an unbeliever, once in your life. @quietthinker

Thats a hint for you, little one.
 

quietthinker

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Not at all.
My objective was to show the members what you dont know, and how you will try to defect , to hide it.

So, You can now talk all day long about ""motives and debate"" and rocket science and the price of tea in china....but you can't answer my question, that asked you to explain The Cross of Christ.......as i told you that you can't.

So, that is not a good sign, as anyone who names the Name of Jesus should be able to explain The Cross.
After all, thats what you would have to do, if you had ever tried to witness to an unbeliever, once in your life. @quietthinker
I will not jump through your hoops Behold. You assume wrongly. Because your demands are not met does not mean I don't understand.
You build assumptions upon assumptions, the end of which is a tangled mess. Why on Earth would I want to get into your tangled spider's web!
 
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quietthinker

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I didnt assume you can't explain The Cross of Christ.
I proved it, and you keep proving it, because you can't.
See you there, next time.
What you have proved Behold, is that you make charges against others you cannot substantiate while projection is your favourite defence as is selectively quoting in an attempt to shift the emphasis.

This brown duck is awake to your style; a style in which you exonerate yourself while dishing out blame (accusations) in various forms.
 
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Behold

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What you have proved Behold, is that you make charges against others you cannot substantiate

It took you all day to come back and finally post something that isn't true?

So, I made no "charge" against you.
See, if the Members read our previous correspondance they will see that i asked you a few times to explain "The Cross of Christ".
You never did even try.......and i told you that is because you can't.
I'll give you some credit......because, at least you didnt "Google" it, and then "cut and paste".
So, i appreciate it. @quietthinker
 

ProDeo

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I never said they're symbolic. They will not enter rest, I fully agree. Eternal destruction/death is not rest. It's eternal destruction/death. Certainly not God's rest that brings salvation.

Well the immortality alone in that verse would imply they're not immortal. Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal? It would have just said "quality of life". Also yes they'll experience tribulation and anguish. I'm sure being thrown into a lake of fire is quite painful.

Neverending ruin sounds a lot like eternal death to me. Complete destruction. Obliterated. They go up in smoke. Their soul is killed.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

They look pretty alive to me.

Not allowed to enter the city of light.

In darkness.

Outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth -- Matt 8:12

Weeping for what they have missed seeing the glory.

or

Gnashing of teeth because they never want to be there anyway.
 

ProDeo

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"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

And one chapter further about the same people, in the LOF and second death :

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Pretty much alive.

So what dies second death mean?

IMO, separation from God, like with A&E when they rebelled, like us here on Earth, separated from His presence.
 

ProDeo

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And to be honest, if eternal conscious torment were true, maybe I could agree with God that his judgement was righteous in casting them out of heaven, but I would always look down on God, saying in my heart "But why do they need to exist still? Just to experience pain?" - that's the main reason I know it's not true. I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemies. I'd rather they just didn't exist if they didn't want to be with God. And I know God would too, because he's a good, and loving God. His final act of love for them would be to destroy them completely.

What does eternal conscious torment even gain for God? Why can't he just destroy them completely? Why does he need them to suffer consciously for all eternity?

All I know for sure is that whatever God decides is good. But I cannot see an ounce of goodness in eternal conscious torment. Or in universalism. I can only see goodness in annihilationism. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I trust the Lord will teach me some day. And I don't base my salvation on whether I understand this principle correctly or not. The only reason I give ECT an ounce of credibility is because so many other people believe in it. I don't believe in it based on what the Bible has said though.

Do you realize Universalism reasons the same way?
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen

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Universalism ignores man's free will and what the Bible says. I never believed in ECT, and haven't found a single good reason to believe in it, because the Bible doesn't say anything remotely like that. It literally says they will die for the second time, permanently.
Does the will of humankind superseded the will of God? It is God's will that all come to repentance.
And they will.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

[
 

hies

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Does the will of humankind superseded the will of God? It is God's will that all come to repentance.
And they will.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

[
While I'm uncertain about whether it's even possible for people to be forgiven in hell/hades, it may very well be, I do know for a fact some people will indeed blaspheme the Holy Spirit and refuse to repent until the end and they will be annihilated. The same is true for the devil himself - he doesn't want forgiveness and he never will.

Let's take the rich man and Lazarus for example:
"So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’" - Luke 16:24

He felt sorry for himself, and still refused to care about Lazarus. In fact, he even commanded Abraham to send Lazarus to join him in that agonizing place, just so he could have a drop of water. He still did not care about Lazarus at all, and still felt justified for the life he lived.
Is it possible he eventually repented? Maybe. That would explain the purpose of the torment - a way of humbling him so he can reflect on what he did to Lazarus. I also know if it's possible for him to be redeemed, then he will be, and perhaps that torment will help do that. We can certainly hope so.

But it's also true some people - I don't know what percentage - will refuse repentance even in that place of torment until the day of judgement, where their soul will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

If it is true people can be forgiven in hell/hades, then the reason Jesus didn't make it explicitly clear is because it might encourage people to not repent now, and may encourage them use the time they have here to live however they want to - ignoring God and not taking him seriously. After all, we know people are stupid enough to say "eh, I can just repent when I'm in hell then" - so this is purposefully concealed to prevent exactly that. We cannot claim to know either way for sure, and it is definitely true some people, maybe even only a few thousand out of the billions that have lived, will refuse to repent forever.

What I do know for sure though is we should treat every person as if they are on the path to hell and ultimately annihilation until they accept Jesus. There is no better guarantee than them getting into heaven than that. Indeed, hope for those who die in their sin that they may be given a chance in hell/hades, but certainly don't encourage anyone to die in it.

"For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation." - 2 Corinthians 6:2

"As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”" - Hebrews 3:15

It is God's desire that all come to repentance, but it's also God's will to give us a free will and not force us to repent. I do believe only a very rare few end up going to the second death, and they fully know where they're going, and willingly embrace it.

"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." - Jude 1:13

These are the hyper-religious false prophets. A very small percentage. Children of the devil, who know they are the devil's children. Evil is very real, and the highest form of evil is knowing fully what evil is and delighting in it, just like the demons and devil himself do. Like Catholic priest pedophiles.
 

St. SteVen

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While I'm uncertain about whether it's even possible for people to be forgiven in hell/hades...
Notice all the places where Jesus will be acknowledged as Lord by EVERY tongue.
Every knee will bow "in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (in the realm of the dead) Hell/Hades

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[
 
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The Learner

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Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?
Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO

[
For instruction leads to faith, and faith with baptism is trained by the Holy Spirit. For that faith is the one universal salvation of humanity, and that there is the same equality before the righteous and loving God, and the same fellowship between Him and all, the apostle most clearly showed, speaking to the following effect: Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed, so that the law became our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith; but after that faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Do you not hear that we are no longer under that law which was accompanied with fear, but under the Word, the master of free choice? Then he subjoined the utterance, clear of all partiality: For you are all the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26-28 There are not, then, in the same Word some illuminated (gnostics); and some animal (or natural) men; but all who have abandoned the desires of the flesh are equal and spiritual before the Lord. And again he writes in another place: For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, and we have all drunk of one cup. 1 Corinthians 12:13 Nor were it absurd to employ the expressions of those who call the reminiscence of better things the filtration of the spirit, understanding by filtration the separation of what is baser, that results from the reminiscence of what is better. There follows of necessity, in him who has come to the recollection of what is better, repentance for what is worse. Accordingly, they confess that the spirit in repentance retraces its steps. In the same way, therefore, we also, repenting of our sins, renouncing our iniquities, purified by baptism, speed back to the eternal light, children to the Father. Jesus therefore, rejoicing in the spirit, said: I thank You, O Father, God of heaven and earth, that You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes; Luke 10:21 the Master and Teacher applying the name babes to us, who are readier to embrace salvation than the wise in the world, who, thinking themselves wise, are inflated with pride. And He exclaims in exultation and exceeding joy, as if lisping with the children, Even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Your sight. Luke 10:21 Wherefore those things which have been concealed from the wise and prudent of this present world have been revealed to babes. Truly, then, are we the children of God, who have put aside the old man, and stripped off the garment of wickedness, and put on the immortality of Christ; that we may become a new, holy people by regeneration, and may keep the man undefiled.
 
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The Learner

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But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother — pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood. O amazing birth! O holy swaddling bands! The Word is all to the child, both father and mother and tutor and nurse. Eat my flesh, He says, and drink my blood. John 6:53-54 Such is the suitable food which the Lord ministers, and He offers His flesh and pours forth His blood, and nothing is wanting for the children's growth. O amazing mystery! We are enjoined to cast off the old and carnal corruption, as also the old nutriment, receiving in exchange another new regimen, that of Christ, receiving Him if we can, to hide Him within; and that, enshrining the Saviour in our souls, we may correct the affections of our flesh.
 

The Learner

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Further, the abandonment of what is bad is the adopting of what is better. For what ignorance has bound ill, is by knowledge loosed well; those bonds are with all speed slackened by human faith and divine grace, our transgressions being taken away by one Poeonian medicine, the baptism of the Word. We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing. And since knowledge springs up with illumination, shedding its beams around the mind, the moment we hear, we who were untaught become disciples. Does this, I ask, take place on the advent of this instruction? You cannot tell the time. For instruction leads to faith, and faith with baptism is trained by the Holy Spirit. For that faith is the one universal salvation of humanity, and that there is the same equality before the righteous and loving God, and the same fellowship between him and all, the apostle most clearly showed, speaking to the following effect: "Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed, so that the Law became our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith; but after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Do you not hear that we are no longer under that law which was accompanied with fear, but under the Word,
the master of free choice? Then he subjoined the utterance, clear of all partiality: "For you are all the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus."Patristic/Clement_Alex