Where does evil come from...

[Ronald David Bruno]

Creating calamity for an already rebellious people is not the same as creating evil.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

In Him is no darkness, doesn't mean He doesn't create evil outside in the world. I didn't contrive the scripture. He said it and scholars translated it. Which version do you hold dear?
God is sovereign and so He chastised, punishes, judges, destroys, kills. He gives life and takes it away.
Haven't you read the Old Testament stories? They are filled with God causing evil upon even His chosen, sending empires to come and defeat them, kill them and enslave them. Would you think the Israelites, who were slaves for 420 years, beaten, harshly treated, deprived of freedoms and many comforts that they once shared, thought that they were just suffering a brief period of unfortunate circimstances that would pass? Do you think evil came upon them when they were whipped to death or starved because they they didnt work hard enough or they were getting old and weak so Pharoah disposed of them? Was Pharoah evil? Don't you think that of the 2 million slaves, some of them wondered how long this evil would be upon them?
Evil always was and is used for a purpose. And I believe that it is necessary for us to know what good is, appreciate it. We wouldn't know what forgiveness meant or mercy, hope or even love unless we were exposed to evil.
Back to the Israelites. What was the purpose in all that suffering? So that they could witness God's miraculous power, glory, love and mercy. He got them out of what was considered an impossible situation. Still, after He freed them, God sent more woes/disasters to the disobedient. Do you think when Korah's family got swallowed up by the earth with fire, Satan did that?
He is judging the world right now with this evil pandemic and He is just getting started. Would you think that when billions are killed during the Great Tribulation, isn't that ordained by God to happen ... or maybe you think that is out His control? Christians are persecuted, getting their heads chopped off and many if us will suffer and for during the GT. Death is disaster. But thankfully it is not the end.

 

[amadeus]

Have you never been attacked by an outside force? Spiritual warfare doesn't work if we are merely fighting our own nature.

God is still judging us according to what is in our own hearts without regard to the source of the attack. What are we to fear: The physical enemy soldier shooting at us on a battlefield?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

If we are on God's side, who is able to destroy both soul and body? How much power is satan shown to have against Job? Only that allowed to him by God! As long as we understand that does it matter whether the man is his own enemy alone or there is some other creature shooting poisonous darts at him?

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

Then also read what James wrote:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

The 'new' man versus the 'old' man!

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

You didn't answer the question. BTW I think perhaps Job had a similar idea as you do about how God operates, because he kept blaming God for his trouble, but he was wrong.
We are told to resist the devil. Not to blame God for his activities.

I thought the answer was in there, but to clarify for your benefit...

What difference would a "yes" or a "no" make to what I posted in response to your question?

Yes, I have been attacked but when I was on the Lord's side the attack was to no avail. Who can overcome God?

Or... I have been attacked and not being on the Lord's side at that moment then...Woe is me!

God loses no battles. When we quench the Holy Spirit against which Paul warned us, then we lose the battle because we are trying to fight it alone.

 

[Renniks]

In Him is no darkness, doesn't mean He doesn't create evil outside in the world. I didn't contrive the scripture. He said it and scholars translated it. Which version do you hold dear?
God is sovereign and so He chastised, punishes, judges, destroys, kills. He gives life and takes it away.
Haven't you read the Old Testament stories? They are filled with God causing evil upon even His chosen, sending empires to come and defeat them, kill them and enslave them. Would you think the Israelites, who were slaves for 420 years, beaten, harshly treated, deprived of freedoms and many comforts that they once shared, thought that they were just suffering a brief period of unfortunate circimstances that would pass? Do you think evil came upon them when they were whipped to death or starved because they they didnt work hard enough or they were getting old and weak so Pharoah disposed of them? Was Pharoah evil? Don't you think that of the 2 million slaves, some of them wondered how long this evil would be upon them?
Evil always was and is used for a purpose. And I believe that it is necessary for us to know what good is, appreciate it. We wouldn't know what forgiveness meant or mercy, hope or even love unless we were exposed to evil.
Back to the Israelites. What was the purpose in all that suffering? So that they could witness God's miraculous power, glory, love and mercy. He got them out of what was considered an impossible situation. Still, after He freed them, God sent more woes/disasters to the disobedient. Do you think when Korah's family got swallowed up by the earth with fire, Satan did that?
He is judging the world right now with this evil pandemic and He is just getting started. Would you think that when billions are killed during the Great Tribulation, isn't that ordained by God to happen ... or maybe you think that is out His control? Christians are persecuted, getting their heads chopped off and many if us will suffer and for during the GT. Death is disaster. But thankfully it is not the end.

Again, all those are just God allowing people to reap what they sow. And the point was that he didn't invent evil, Lucifer did. And bringing good from evil happenings isn't creating evil.
Yes God killed many of his own people, but that wasn't his original desire. Jesus said he longed to take Jerusalem (representing Israel)under his wing but they would not.
God desires all to be saved, but many will not be. There's also the whole "under law" then and "under grace" now discussion we could get into.
I don't claim to know whether the pandemic is God's judgment. And I won't attribute it to him without knowing. It seems to me if you go that route, you have to declare every natural disaster as a judgment from God, when Jesus said differently.

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (13:1–5)

Sometimes disasters are just part of living in a broken world.

 

[Renniks]

God loses no battles.

But evil forces delay his activities at times. See The book of Daniel. If there are no literal evil forces, then what are the Angels battling?

He told me, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. God has heard everything that you said ever since the first day you decided to humble yourself in front of your God so that you could learn to understand things. I have come in response to your prayer. 13 The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

Now I will return to fight the commander of Persia. When I go, the commander of Greece will come. 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the true writings. No one will support me when I fight these commanders except your commander, Michael.

 

[amadeus]

But evil forces delay his activities at times. See The book of Daniel. If there are no literal evil forces, then what are the Angels battling?

He told me, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. God has heard everything that you said ever since the first day you decided to humble yourself in front of your God so that you could learn to understand things. I have come in response to your prayer. 13 The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

Now I will return to fight the commander of Persia. When I go, the commander of Greece will come. 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the true writings. No one will support me when I fight these commanders except your commander, Michael.

And your point is?

 

[Oseas]

Lucifer (probably the most beautiful and prominent angel in Heaven) did NOT have a fallen nature before he rebelled against God. However, he did have free will to either obey or disobey God. Adam and Eve did not have fallen natures before they disobeyed God. But they also had freewill. And in both cases they chose to do what was evil. Only after that did they acquire fallen natures.

What does the Word of God shows or rather reveals: Luke 20:v.35-36 JESUS said:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (the Kingdom of God - the millennium of Christ)
, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


What was the prior estate of them which will be angels in the Kingdom of GOD?

1 Corinthians 15:v.51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment,...at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Amen

 

[Oseas]

Jude 1:v.6-7
And the angels which kept not their FIRST estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment
of this great Day, (THE ANGELS IN EDEN) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Around 1,056 years after the fall in Eden, precisely in Noah's time, all of them were corrupted : Genesis 6:v.1-8
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Oseas]

Matthew 23:v.29 to 36 - JESUS said to the Pharisees:
- whoso reads, let him understand -
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Why shall the damnation of hell fall upon the Jewish people? They are involved in the death of Abel, beyond the death of all the true prophets of GOD. How to explain Abel was killed by a Jewish person? Well, they are seed of the fallen angels which corrupted themselves in Eden.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Again, all those are just God allowing people to reap what they sow. And the point was that he didn't invent evil, Lucifer did. And bringing good from evil happenings isn't creating evil.
Yes God killed many of his own people, but that wasn't his original desire. Jesus said he longed to take Jerusalem (representing Israel)under his wing but they would not.
God desires all to be saved, but many will not be. There's also the whole "under law" then and "under grace" now discussion we could get into.
I don't claim to know whether the pandemic is God's judgment. And I won't attribute it to him without knowing. It seems to me if you go that route, you have to declare every natural disaster as a judgment from God, when Jesus said differently.

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (13:1–5)

Sometimes disasters are just part of living in a broken world.

Do you think the devastation that happened to Job was just part of a broken world?
Satan can't do anything unless he has God's permission. As with Job, everything short of his death was approved by God.
Either God is sovereign or not.
Again, scripture says He created evil: disaster, woe, troubles, calamity, doom.
You are arguing against what it says - go ahead.
I heard a teaching about evil once. The Pastor said evil is not some thing, a substance, it is a bad relationship between two things.
In other words a on ice is not evil in the hands of a chef, a skilled surgeon, but in the hands of a serial killer, evil happens. A tornado is not evil. It can be destructive to one house and do nothing to the house next door.
I like to tell the story of the earthquake in Haiti that killed 300k. Many would not believe that God caused that. They would say it was bad, just a natural disaster or some say Satan did it. No, GOD did. Haiti was one of the poorest countries, with corrupt leaders and false religions ( like Voodoo). People lived in poverty and fear of demons, with no love or hope for a better life. There was not much good there, mostly evil. They knew evil, but not good. What happened after the quake? The world responded with love in the form of medical supplies, food, shelter, missionaries, etc. The Haitians were helped in a big way and were amazed at the overflowing love they've never known before. Many received the gospel and believed.
That was God's purpose. The lessons we learn from evil are for our benefit, we learn to appreciate what is good.

 

[Renniks]

And your point is?

I have no idea. :) I was under the impression you believed the devil was basically a myth. No?

 

[Renniks]

Satan can't do anything unless he has God's permission

Says the Bible nowhere. Job is basically a parable, I think. Satan asked for permission to attack Job, because God had put special protection around him! Why would we assume that's usually the case?

 

[Renniks]

Do you think the devastation that happened to Job was just part of a broken world?
Satan can't do anything unless he has God's permission. As with Job, everything short of his death was approved by God.
Either God is sovereign or not.
Again, scripture says He created evil: disaster, woe, troubles, calamity, doom.
You are arguing against what it says - go ahead.
I heard a teaching about evil once. The Pastor said evil is not some thing, a substance, it is a bad relationship between two things.
In other words a on ice is not evil in the hands of a chef, a skilled surgeon, but in the hands of a serial killer, evil happens. A tornado is not evil. It can be destructive to one house and do nothing to the house next door.
I like to tell the story of the earthquake in Haiti that killed 300k. Many would not believe that God caused that. They would say it was bad, just a natural disaster or some say Satan did it. No, GOD did. Haiti was one of the poorest countries, with corrupt leaders and false religions ( like Voodoo). People lived in poverty and fear of demons, with no love or hope for a better life. There was not much good there, mostly evil. They knew evil, but not good. What happened after the quake? The world responded with love in the form of medical supplies, food, shelter, missionaries, etc. The Haitians were helped in a big way and were amazed at the overflowing love they've never known before. Many received the gospel and believed.
That was God's purpose. The lessons we learn from evil are for our benefit, we learn to appreciate what is good.

Again, God using a disaster to bring good just means he's a God of redemption, it doesn't mean he caused the disaster. It sounds to me that someone has convinced you that the Calvinist version of sovereignty is the correct one. I don't believe it is. God is not the cause of all things. He makes that very clear in scripture, which is full of "if" "then" statements about what God will do if we do something.
"I heard a teaching about evil once. The Pastor said evil is not some thing, a substance, it is a bad relationship between two things.
In other words a on ice is not evil in the hands of a chef, a skilled surgeon, but in the hands of a serial killer, evil happens. A tornado is not evil. It can be destructive to one house and do nothing to the house next door."

See, from my perspective, you are now arguing against what you just said. Did God cause the serial killer to kill or did he himself cause evil? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Says the Bible nowhere. Job is basically a parable, I think. Satan asked for permission to attack Job, because God had put special protection around him! Why would we assume that's usually the case?

That is what sovereignty means.
If Satan was able to do whatever he wanted without God allowing it, he would be able to alter God's plan and the world would be in chaos. In other words, God would not be in control. Satan is the Father of lies.
He is also the accuser, he lures us into temptation, but he cannot touch us, nor can he kill anyone unless God allows it.
Job is not a parable. What happened to him was purposed to be a lesson for us, a lesson in faith when tragedies come. When bad things happen to us, we remember what really happened to Job. And we also know that nothing can come between God's love and us and no one can snatch us out of His hand.
God's plan is so encompassing as to contain every action in nature, every person's life and their interactions with others and their futures. Whether they are saved or not and if they are, precisely when they will be saved is orchestrated through events and people involved leading up to that exact moment in time. Satan cannot thwart God's perfect plan in any way.

 

[Triumph1300]

Satan cannot thwart God's perfect plan in any way.

No, he can't change the plan, you are right about that!
But he has sure been messing up the path towards that plan.
The plan is in the works and it will be completed.

You are right about what you posted about Job.

 

[Renniks]

That is what sovereignty means.

Um, no, sovereignty doesn't mean "control". It means God has the ultimate authority, but that says nothing about how much he decides to interfere with men or fallen angels.

 

[Renniks]

God's plan is so encompassing as to contain every action in nature, every person's life and their interactions with others and their futures. Whether they are saved or not and if they are, precisely when they will be saved is orchestrated through events and people involved leading up to that exact moment in time. Satan cannot thwart God's perfect plan in any way.

Again, you are trying to say God orchestrates everything, but I don't see any evidence for this in scripture. In fact, it would be pretty silly to believe prayer does anything if God is orchestrating all that happens.
The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12–20; Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7–11; 26:2–3; Ezek. 33:13–15).

Now, God will win in the end, because he has all wisdom, but that doesn't mean he is causing everything along the way. You might picture it as us on a ocean liner and God will steer the ship to shore, but what happens on the ocean liner is often a lot of chaos that God is not actively controlling. The world looks chaotic because Satan is the prince of this world.

John 14:30
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

Satan isn't God's trigger man... and Job bears that out when Satan says he's been roaming too and fro on the earth, basically saying he's being doing what he pleases.
People constantly say "God is in control." but I don't think they really believe that. Because if you ask them if God controls rape and murder and child abuse, they will start backpedaling real fast.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Um, no, sovereignty doesn't mean "control". It means God has the ultimate authority, but that says nothing about how much he decides to interfere with men or fallen angels.

All authority in heaven and earth means God is in control. Supreme power to influence His will iver creation exactly how He plans is control. If God doesn't have control, the word does not exist.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Again, you are trying to say God orchestrates everything, but I don't see any evidence for this in scripture. In fact, it would be pretty silly to believe prayer does anything if God is orchestrating all that happens.
The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12–20; Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7–11; 26:2–3; Ezek. 33:13–15).

Now, God will win in the end, because he has all wisdom, but that doesn't mean he is causing everything along the way. You might picture it as us on a ocean liner and God will steer the ship to shore, but what happens on the ocean liner is often a lot of chaos that God is not actively controlling. The world looks chaotic because Satan is the prince of this world.

John 14:30
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

Satan isn't God's trigger man... and Job bears that out when Satan says he's been roaming too and fro on the earth, basically saying he's being doing what he pleases.
People constantly say "God is in control." but I don't think they really believe that. Because if you ask them if God controls rape and murder and child abuse, they will start backpedaling real fast.

If anyone, uncludingbSatan could mess up His plans, prophecy could not be possible. For it is fulfilled with hair splitting accuracy. All the names in the Book of Life could not exist if it was not true. The only way it could be true is that He ordained it precisely. He is all knowing.
Your concept of God as an ocean liner Captain you suppose smashes into an Iceberg now and then? Lol.
I hope this ocean liner has sufficient lifeboats ... or maybe you were supposed pray for them?

As far as those scriptures go, fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. He chastises us and to keep threatens us with punishment to keep us in line. That is how we sometimes keep our children in line. But since He already knows how they will respond when He threatens them, His plan moves right along unchanged. To them it appears, God changed His mind, but how could He if He already knows the future? His influence over the Israelites required lots of chastisements, punishments, judgments ... All in line with His plan.
Oh and as for prayer, God already knows what you need and will pray for. He wants a relationship with us. Prayer is talking to God, demonstrating our faith and trust in Him that He will cause all things to work together for good. That sounds like an orchestration to me.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"He is before all things and in Him all things hold together. " Col. 1:17

"In whose hand is the life if every living thing. And the breath of all mankind?" Job 12:10

"One God and Father of All, Who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:6

" Man's steps are ordained by the LORD ..." Prov. 20:24

 

[amadeus]

I have no idea. :) I was under the impression you believed the devil was basically a myth. No?

No! You should not jump to conclusions so quickly!