Now you are again conflating two things; knowledge and ordaining. God can know without ordaining. God can act when necessary without causing everything. Why's that hard to understand?
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Not according to God. God says they did things he did not want over and over and over again. You gonna believe him or your tidy neat theology? Men sure like to think they have God all figured out. That was Job's mistake too.
Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Prophecy, including who is written in the Book of Life could not be fulfilled exactly as He planned if He was not sovereign (having all authority and in control of every event). All events leading up to that moment must be in order. One thing out of place and it effects the outcome. It would be a mutation, a flaw. God does not have flaws in His plan as if He needed to correct billions of these little interruptions and continuously sort them out and resolve them. Why can't you understand that?
Foreknowledge is how and why His plan is ironclad. Our faith is based on a God who does'nt change His mind. We are secure and our eternity is secure. Every prophecy will come true exactly how he planned. He does'nt have to make changes like an architect makes a general draft and later finds out he has to alter it due to unforseen problems. Why would God change His mind, when He already knows what's best for the future and what is best for us? That is another principle, GOD does not change.
Back to the scripture that says it all
>>>>>ISAIAH 45:7<<<<<
People who don't except a verse or doctrine always try to interpret it differently or they go off on a tangent, wrestle with it and seek to find scriptures that do not harmonize with it. This happens to all of us when we bump up against a concept that just does not compute. And that is okay, scripture supports itself. But hopefully you aren't just discarding that scripture, because God creating evil does make sense. You just cant get your mind around it. It ruffles your feathers, rubs you wrong.
I think many people have this concept of evil, disasters, woes, doom, calamities (all of which are translations of the origin word), have just entered God's universe all by mishap, surprise! Lucifer rebels, man sins, oops "Houston, we have a problem!"
>>>They have this view of the Fall of man as something that should have not have happened, wasn't intended by God.<<<
Oops there it is!
But He put the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL in the Garden BEFORE man sinned. And before Lucifer rebelled, God knew.
Love and all GOD'S ATTRIBUTES, all that is good could not be understood and appreciated UNLESS we were exposed to evil. We could not know forgiveness, mercy, healing, hope or faith - unless we needed them. The value of life is understood when we see death. Finally love needs to be given freely, He can't force us to love him and we cant force anyone to love us.
Love is a wonderful pursuit when you don't have it and a cherished gift when you receive it. Just made that up - not bad.
Many will struggle with what I have said. You can have your own concept of why there is evil and suffering, I am comfortable with with mine. It is not an essential doctrine. Nothing more left here to say.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
That's just It, It was all a lesson. God wants us to do good and man continuously fell into sin. And He sent a remedy, opened our eyes and now we can choose good over evil.
Job's mistake? Wait a minute, I thought you said that was a parable?
It may be a play. It may not be. Whether Job existed or not, the message is the same.
My point is, God doesnt orcanstrate everything in our lives. Lots of things are caused by others or ourselves.
God is smart enough to fulfill his promises without manipulating all events. He can know all without causing all.
VictoryinJesus
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not that it matters because these are only random thoughts I have. But concerning the tree they were not to eat of. We suggest(not meaning you but what I’ve heard often) they lacked nothing and God had provided all to them ....but maybe the one thing they lacked yet had to be taught or learned. (1 Thessalonians 4:9) As God’s greatest creation yet to be the creation of “a new creature”, not forced by lead and equipped as a nurtured, growing up, maturing Son. In His ways. When they ate of the tree and had done wrong ...God already knew what they had done but when He called they hid. Believing it was better to hide (eating swines flesh Isaiah 66:17), better to hide then to come forth and trust whatever chastisement there would be, that God is always good and always fair and always just. Consider that “God desires mercy” ...would God have shown mercy? If they had know the depth of His mercy, would they hide. Consider the passages in the New of those who hate the light and will not come to the light that their deeds be made known that, they are a work of God, who IS MERCY. Suggest evil began ‘in the mind’ at God is not merciful but instead remain hidden from Him when all is uncovered before Him, even hell can not hide but is uncovered before Him. Isn’t that what we come to realize as enemies once dead in our sins and trespasses ...that it is better to come to the light and that our deeds be made manifest, and to trust whatever chastisement there is that God is indeed always good and always merciful, and desires most of all Mercy? Just random thoughts but maybe Adam and Eve had head knowledge of God in eating of the tree, but lacked heart knowledge of “God is Mercy.”
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
When I say everything, I mean the significant events, not clothes you. Choose to wear, food to eat, but certainly a job, a move out of state, a marriage, friends, particular people that come into your life as a witness, or to minister at a certain time. Your decisions and what actually influenced thise decisions to mive in a direction, that fork in the road you came to ... We often look back and say what if I had never moved here or took that job ... if I never met this person, I wouldn't be here today. But one thing, one wrong move could have resulted in sudden death. You didn't look both ways, were looking at your text message while crossing the street and bang. Do you think this event took God by surprise? Do you think He is up there thinking, "Oh My, I can't save him now ... all that I had planned for this one will now have to be canceled. He calls over to one of His angels - Get me the Book, I have to erase another one." NO!
So, if you are in that Book, He will keep you alive, He will guide you through life and influence your path as scripture says, God directs our steps and has a plan for each of us.
And He will shout into your mind to warn you to look both ways to avoid that bus that is about to end your life. We will be surprised at how many times God has been there protecting us, guiding our thoughts to move in a certain direction. That unction we get - "You ought to go this way or do this ...", is Him guiding us. We think all our thoughts are either self generated or we are getting them from others, things we read or hear. God is there for the significant events that matter. That is what a plan is, blueprint or orchestration if you will. When you hear Beethoven or Mozart, you know musicians didn't just get together and started spontaneously playing the music in perfection, It was orchestrated.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Pretty soon you say the same about Jesus?
Just asking.
Those who want to take Job as fictional already show that they have a certain theological framework that dismisses parts of Scripture that involve the supernatural.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
If evil did not exist, would we know what mercy is? God would not need to demonstrate mercy. Frankly, I don't believe we could have known God as we do without knowing evil.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Look at what you are saying. "He does'nt cause or manipulate events."
So He has a prophetic plan but does not cause it. He just let's life progress as it will, let's the pieces fall as they will and all the pieces just happen to fall perfectly in line with this plan without His causal power intervening? Or maybe you are saying He just selectively makes adjustments along the way, on a daily basis?
It's either an supernatural, incredibly complex Holy plan (and that means without flaws), designed by an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God, containing trillions of moves ... or life would be chaos and we would be subject to chance or at best a god who changes from day to day.
First off, Lucifer (Latin that means "light bearer") is not Satan the Devil, for those who read Isaiah 14 carefully can readily recognize that the Latin word "Lucifer" that is accurately translated as "shining one" is speaking of the Babylonian Dynasty of kings.("shining one" from the Hebrew word heylel, Isa 14:12).
At Isaiah 14:1-3, it establishes who the "shining one" was, whereby it reads: "For Jehovah (God's personal name) will show mercy to Jacob, and he will again choose Israel. He will settle them in their land (after having been captives of ancient Babylon for 68 years, from 607-539 B.C.E.), and the foreign residents will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And peoples will take them and bring them to their own place, and the house of Israel will possess them as male and female servants in Jehovah’s land; and they will be the captors of those who held them captive (a prophecy that applies in "the final part of the days" or our time period regarding Babylon the Great, whereby the false religions of the world release their "captives" into Jehovah's pure worship, see Rev 17 and Isa 2:2-4), and they will have in subjection those who were forcing them to work. In the day when Jehovah gives you rest from your pain and from your turmoil and from the hard slavery imposed on you, you will recite this proverb against the king of Babylon: “How the one forcing others to work has met his end ! How the oppression has ended !"
Then, at Isaiah 14:12, it reads: "How you have fallen from heaven (or from their haughty, proud state), O shining one (Hebrew heylel, Latin Lucifer), son of the dawn ! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who vanquished nations !"
At Isaiah 14:16, 17, it clearly identifies who is the "shining one", who "Lucifer" is, by saying: "Those seeing you will stare at you (in shock as to how this could have happened to ancient Babylon); They will closely examine you, saying,' Is this the man ( such as King Nebuchadnezzar, reigned 625-582 B.C.E.) who was shaking the earth, who made kingdoms tremble, who made the inhabited earth like the wilderness and overthrew its cities, who refused to let his prisoners go home ? ’ "(see 2 Kings 24:12, 14 and 25:8 whereby in 618 B.C.E, 18 year old king Jehioachin and his mother, along with other exiles [such as Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, Dan 1:1, 2, 6, 7] were taken captive to Babylon as well as in 607 B.C.E. when most of the survivors of Jerusalem were taken captive as exiles back to Babylon)
Thus, "Lucifer" or more accurately "shining one" (for the Babylonian Dynasty felt that they were like the sun or stars, a "shining one" to be looked up like a god, saying: "I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne", Isa 14:13) was speaking, not of Satan, but the Babylonian Dynasty of kings, especially Nebuchadnezzar, who is spoken of some 60 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly but inaccurately called the "Old Testament".
At Isaiah 14:1-3, it establishes who the "shining one" was, whereby it reads: "For Jehovah (God's personal name) will show mercy to Jacob, and he will again choose Israel. He will settle them in their land (after having been captives of ancient Babylon for 68 years, from 607-539 B.C.E.), and the foreign residents will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And peoples will take them and bring them to their own place, and the house of Israel will possess them as male and female servants in Jehovah’s land; and they will be the captors of those who held them captive (a prophecy that applies in "the final part of the days" or our time period regarding Babylon the Great, whereby the false religions of the world release their "captives" into Jehovah's pure worship, see Rev 17 and Isa 2:2-4), and they will have in subjection those who were forcing them to work. In the day when Jehovah gives you rest from your pain and from your turmoil and from the hard slavery imposed on you, you will recite this proverb against the king of Babylon: “How the one forcing others to work has met his end ! How the oppression has ended !"
Then, at Isaiah 14:12, it reads: "How you have fallen from heaven (or from their haughty, proud state), O shining one (Hebrew heylel, Latin Lucifer), son of the dawn ! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who vanquished nations !"
At Isaiah 14:16, 17, it clearly identifies who is the "shining one", who "Lucifer" is, by saying: "Those seeing you will stare at you (in shock as to how this could have happened to ancient Babylon); They will closely examine you, saying,' Is this the man ( such as King Nebuchadnezzar, reigned 625-582 B.C.E.) who was shaking the earth, who made kingdoms tremble, who made the inhabited earth like the wilderness and overthrew its cities, who refused to let his prisoners go home ? ’ "(see 2 Kings 24:12, 14 and 25:8 whereby in 618 B.C.E, 18 year old king Jehioachin and his mother, along with other exiles [such as Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, Dan 1:1, 2, 6, 7] were taken captive to Babylon as well as in 607 B.C.E. when most of the survivors of Jerusalem were taken captive as exiles back to Babylon)
Thus, "Lucifer" or more accurately "shining one" (for the Babylonian Dynasty felt that they were like the sun or stars, a "shining one" to be looked up like a god, saying: "I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne", Isa 14:13) was speaking, not of Satan, but the Babylonian Dynasty of kings, especially Nebuchadnezzar, who is spoken of some 60 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly but inaccurately called the "Old Testament".
Ronald, God does not cause sin.
Sin is "evil"......"sinning" is "Evil".
God does not cause either.
So, as i explained to you,.....in the OT, when you find worlds like calamity, doom, adversity, ...... this is the context of a different understanding of "evil".
As this is God causing correction, or bringing wrath.
So, your idea of evil....the sinning that men do, and the misery that the devil brings, is not what God causes.
Let me show you one more..
Jesus is coming back to bring wrath to this world........God's.
And that is "evil", in the same sense that God's correcting hand is defined in the English bibles, as "evil".
But that is not the same as God causing the EVIL in this world that we seen as sin.
There is an "evil heart of unbelief", and God does not cause that......
So, this word "evil" has many definitions that are related to how you find this word being used in the OT and in the NT.
Well now you are changing your tune.
I see your problem now. When you say God orchestrates everything or God manipulates everything, you don't really mean everything at all. Look at what you said here:
"And He will shout into your mind to warn you to look both ways to avoid that bus that is about to end your life. We will be surprised at how many times God has been there protecting us, guiding our thoughts to move in a certain direction. That unction we get - "You ought to go this way or do this ...", is Him guiding us. We think all our thoughts are either self generated or we are getting them from others, things we read or hear. God is there for the significant events that matter. That is what a plan is, blueprint or orchestration if you will. When you hear Beethoven or Mozart, you know musicians didn't just get together and started spontaneously playing the music in perfection, It was orchestrated."
Can't you see that if God is controlling EVERYTHING, then he is controlling the bus, the bus driver, and every twitch of the eye, every firing of the neurons of the brain of everyone on the bus? So, that would be what? God saving you from what he caused to happen? Because remember, if everything means everything, then he's currently causing every movement of everyone everywhere, including rapists, murderers, and child molesters.
But now, you are saying he's just there for the events that matter? Matter to who? You misunderstand me. You badly misunderstand everything I'm saying. God is there for everything, obviously. He holds all matter together by his power. But God isn't CONTROLLING everything. There's a huge difference. If God is controlling everyone, God is constantly causing evil to happen. Yeah, you can look back and say "Look, God did this. Look, God did that. If you are a Christian, I certainly hope you can! Because you are in an intimate relationship with the creator of the universe and yeah, he will guide and help you IF you ask. But that's not God controlling or manipulating all events. That is God invading the Devil's turf, this world, on your behalf. Those are miracles precisely because they aren't the norm for most people on the earth! And miracles by definition are interferences in the natural order of things. I'm not even saying God has no plan for your life, but I think "blueprint" goes too far. Because a blueprint infers that everything is all mapped out and you are the puppet and God is pulling your strings and that, Friend, is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that what we do matters. That what we do changes the world. God says "If you do this, I will do that." But we have to believe him. He's not Aristotle's unmoved mover. He's not manipulating you, he's in a relationship with you, and in a relationship, entities do things for each other.
Well, maybe there are some that do that. I don't. I believe in every supernatural event in scripture. The reason I say Job may be a play/parable is that it's an ancient book, most say the older book in the Bible and it's written in the form of a drama.
Job is written in a form of Hebrew that is even older than the ancient Hebrew that makes up most of the Old Testament. The dialogue is poetry. It's wisdom literature.
Where else are we told that Satan comes and goes from God's presence as Job appears to suggest? Nowhere. Is it a literary device, rather than a historical or theological statement? Maybe. But it's still a book we can learn from.
If you want to see the devil, the best place to look at the moment, is in heaven, but within 25 or so years, the best place to attempt to see the devil, is in the Bottomless pit, but God has organised that place to be locked up to stop us from entering it after it has been locked up and to stop the influence of the devil during the time that the bottomless pit is lock up with him in it.
After the Bottomless pit is unlocked, the devil will roam the face of the earth to entrap people in his false hopes.
Personally, it is better to search for God, rather than the Devil because the outcomes are much better for us.
Shalom
PS: - How the Devil came to be is really irrelevant as his fall was long ago and has no bearing on his actions in influencing our lives for destruction and desolation.
After the Bottomless pit is unlocked, the devil will roam the face of the earth to entrap people in his false hopes.
Personally, it is better to search for God, rather than the Devil because the outcomes are much better for us.
Shalom
PS: - How the Devil came to be is really irrelevant as his fall was long ago and has no bearing on his actions in influencing our lives for destruction and desolation.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Allowing things to happen and controlling the outcome. Because He is in control, the bus won't hit and kill a person whom He has a plan to fulfill. So whether He whispers ir shouts ti his mind ir the drivers, He controls the situation. He might just take me anytime - I'll say thank you
You still haven't addressed
Isaiah 45:7 ... maybe you deleted that verse?
Enough to get His plan accomplished without flaws or interruptions, perfectly on time. How can you do that unless you have all motions in check?
"A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Prov. 16:9
"The steps of man are estavlished by the Lord ..." Psalm 37:23
"Many are the plans in the mind of man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand." Prov. 19:21
"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not done, saying 'My counsel shall stand and I will accomplish all my purpose." Isaiah 46:10
Allowing it to happen and controlling the outcome. Hey I am not saying I understand how, I just know He uses evil for a purpose and works all things together for good for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose.
Let's look at one apparent evil that took place, Judas betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus chose Judas and knew all along what he was going to do and at the appropriate time told him tk go do it. Satan entered him as if taking orders. God purposed that event, every single step. God purposed Jesus being taken at a specific time, being whipped and hung on a cross. Many prophecies were fulfilled perfectly because all these crucial steps leading up to that time were in order. Jesus was in control of His whole mission, every single day, who He talked to, who He healed and drew specific people to him to be healed - all in a timely order. There were no unforseen interruptions of bumps in the road. He gave the Father the credit of course. But you have to understand everything had to be orchestrated like a musical symphony to fulfill some 300 prophecies. That is sovereignty.
It says Satan entered judas, not God told him. Again you attribute satan's activity to God.
Jesus told him to do what he was going to do quickly. That doesn't make it God's actions. Judas had the same opportunity to stay or betray as we all do. Again, God knowing isn't God causing.
